Role of the Bible in Mormonism

[Windseeker]

@mickydo

Can you please explain to me what compels a person who does not believe in works to expend the work and effort to condemn works in the first place? 

Is not preaching and evangliizing this principle a work in and of itself?

I mean if you really believe there is no point in works then why bother doing anything, least of all bothering those who actually want to do some good in the world.

If a person truly believes no action is necessary other than proclaiming Jesus is the Christ, then what is the purpose in commandments and repentance? 

How does one who does not believe in works take up the Cross and follow the Savior without doing the things he did?  

[Traveler]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 5:18 PM, Larry Cotrell said:

I believe that God can keep plants alive for a day while He makes the sun.

Luke 1:37

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

If this is what you believe - that G-d is undisciplined and unprincipled.  That he changes at a whim and is not consistent (the same yester, today and forever) concerning important things like his means of creation.  I really am no interested nor convinced much concerning such opinions and find such thinking more like the thinking of ancient pagans. I do not believe that just because G-d can do something that he does.  I believe he is intelligent and does things the best way possible.

You are welcome to you opinion – but I will be honest – I am not impressed.

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

5 hours ago, mickydo said:

Also something I thought of last night... I think its true to say "Mormons can only be saved through knowledge of Joseph Smith".   I'm not sure if you would agree with that.

Is that a statement that I can run with?  How can I change the statement so that all Mormons can agree  on it?  Appreciate opinions on that.

Absolutely, positively NOT.

There's more to this, but I want to try to digest your other post first.  What I'm getting from it so far, is that works have nothing to do with our being justified (a.k.a. "saved"); but they may have a great deal to do with whether--or to what degree--we are sanctified.  One evangelizes, not to identify those souls that are justified--God has already chosen them--but to invite the justified souls to also become sanctified.

Am I reading you right?  Because if so, then we may have a lot more in common than you think.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[mickydo]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

If this is what you believe - that G-d is undisciplined and unprincipled.  That he changes at a whim and is not consistent (the same yester, today and forever) concerning important things like his means of creation.  I really am no interested nor convinced much concerning such opinions and find such thinking more like the thinking of ancient pagans. I do not believe that just because G-d can do something that he does.  I believe he is intelligent and does things the best way possible.

You are welcome to you opinion – but I will be honest – I am not impressed.

 

The Traveler

Traveler...  I didnt say that  you got the wrong guy...

peace

Mike

[Larry Cotrell]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

If this is what you believe - that G-d is undisciplined and unprincipled.  That he changes at a whim and is not consistent (the same yester, today and forever) concerning important things like his means of creation.  I really am no interested nor convinced much concerning such opinions and find such thinking more like the thinking of ancient pagans. I do not believe that just because G-d can do something that he does.  I believe he is intelligent and does things the best way possible.

You are welcome to you opinion – but I will be honest – I am not impressed.

 

The Traveler

I don't believe, nor did I ever say, that God is undisciplined and unprincipled. All I said was that I believe in the Biblical order of the days of creation. I am sure God had a reason for doing things in the order that He did. We may not understand His reasoning, but He always has a reason for what He does. 

Hebrews 13:8 is a great verse. It's hanging on the wall in my church as a reminder that "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." I wholeheartedly believe that.

I don't believe that just because God can do something that He does either. You can't compare me to an ancient pagan for believing the Genesis account of the creation (and agreeing with the account in the Pearl of Great Price).

I don't believe these things that your saying that I believe (for example, that He changes at a whim and is not consistent). I simply believe in the Genesis account of the creation. That's all.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, mickydo said:

Traveler...  I didnt say that  you got the wrong guy...

peace

Mike

You did say it:  "be born again= act of sovereign God= man plays no part, God mercies whom he mercies and harden whom he hardens"

Edited September 26, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Larry Cotrell]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

You did say it:  "be born again= act of sovereign God= man plays no part, God mercies whom he mercies and harden whom he hardens"

I think @Traveler, correct me if I'm wrong, was referring to me in his post because he quoted me about the order of days three and four in the creation.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Larry Cotrell said:

I don't believe, nor did I ever say, that God is undisciplined and unprincipled. All I said was that I believe in the Biblical order of the days of creation. I am sure God had a reason for doing things in the order that He did. We may not understand His reasoning, but He always has a reason for what He does. 

Hebrews 13:8 is a great verse. It's hanging on the wall in my church as a reminder that "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." I wholeheartedly believe that.

I don't believe that just because God can do something that He does either. You can't compare me to an ancient pagan for believing the Genesis account of the creation (and agreeing with the account in the Pearl of Great Price).

I don't believe these things that your saying that I believe (for example, that He changes at a whim and is not consistent). I simply believe in the Genesis account of the creation. That's all.

 

Then I would ask you – what is it you believe?  I believe G-d has given us a preponderance of evidence that scripture can be used to draw incorrect conclusions – even within the scripture text themselves there are examples of Pharisees as well as Satan misusing scripture in attempts to validate incorrect conclusions.  Even among his own Apostles Jesus often reminded them that they had not understood the scriptures correctly.

Christians at war with each other is historical evidence that scripture has not been well understood by traditional Christians.  The entire epoch that brought about the “Toleration Act” of 1649 is evidence that for over a thousand years Christians had misused their scripture in the manner of the Pharisees to justify a great many atrocities; not just against mankind in general but other Christians from miss interpretation of scripture.   

My question is – how do you know and validate your understanding and interpretation of scripture is correct?  Especially when there are thousands of Christian sects that differ in some doctrine based on different interpretation of scripture.  How do you know your interpretations are correct?  And everybody that disagrees is there for incorrect?  Is such determined by who can quote best the most scripture?  BTW Jesus gave a method of determining if someone understood scripture and it was not by how much scripture they could quote.

It may seem to you that I am a little harsh – perhaps I am but I am honest – especially in voicing my concerns but I have learned and observed that those less willing to consider other options – are the most likely to misunderstand whatever evidence it is being considered.  The great debates between faith and works are evidence the scriptures are misunderstood and used incorrectly.

 

The Traveler

[Larry Cotrell]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

My question is – how do you know and validate your understanding and interpretation of scripture is correct?  Especially when there are thousands of Christian sects that differ in some doctrine based on different interpretation of scripture.  How do you know your interpretations are correct?  And everybody that disagrees is there for incorrect?  Is such determined by who can quote best the most scripture?  BTW Jesus gave a method of determining if someone understood scripture and it was not by how much scripture they could quote.

First of all, that is a great question, one that all reasonable Christians have pondered. In response, I would say that how I know what is correct depends on the specific issue. There is not one blanket proof for all of my interpretations of scripture. You have to spend time studying out each individual thing. There has been times where I do believe something and someone uses the Bible to explain to me why it is wrong. At that point, I say, "You know what? Your'e right." 

As I said, I can't be 100% certain that I am completely correct on everything. For example, some people say that the rapture will happen before the tribulation, others say in the middle, and still others say at the end. I have my opinion on which it is, but the point I am trying to make is that little things like that don't matter all that much. I don't think someone who believes in a post-tribulation rapture is going to hell (or outer darkness).

With that said, there are still things that are crucial, such as what someone believes about Jesus Christ, salvation, and other gods. I believe that the things that are crucial are purposefully spelled out clearly in the Bible. You are probably wondering why they are still debated if they are clearly explained. Often, things are distorted through tradition. Satan also distorts truth sometimes to trick people. He has been doing that since the beginning of time. As for why I am sure about these things, my reasoning depends on the question. However, I always turn to the Bible for answers because God uses the Bible to speak to us. 

If you (or anyone else reading this) have any questions as to why I believe a specific doctrine, feel free to message me. I would love to talk about anything.

I'll end with one of my favorite verses. Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Edited September 27, 2016 by Larry Cotrell

[mickydo]

@Just_A_Guy

 

There's more to this, but I want to try to digest your other post first.  What I'm getting from it so far, is that works have nothing to do with our being justified(a.k.a. "saved"); Yes God is the one who justifies... Rom 8:33 but they Believers  may have a great deal to do with whether--or to what degree--we are sanctified Yes.  One evangelizes, not to identify those souls that are justified--God has already chosen them--(but to invite the justified souls to also become sanctified.)..No  

We evangelize because Christ commands us to.. Great Commision Matt 28:19.   
 

Matthew Chapter 13... whole thing... are "Kingdom Parables".  This is information not revealed in the old testament but applicable to the Kingdom Christ is already underway setting up...  

Not sure if you are aware but the symbols used in the parables once identified retain that association throughout the bible.

Matt 13:3-9 Parable of the Soils .. very important concept for Protestantism...  not sure if Mormonism highlights it as much.

Seed = the word

Soil = humanity both elect and non-elect

birds = false teachers or errant doctrine

thorns = worldly distractions

The Word is the seed and is proclaimed throughout the earth...As Isaiah 55:11 says  So will My word which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."    ...We preach the gospel...  as you can see from the parable several outcomes are possible... I think you get the parable...  

look at this statement from Paul in light of Parable of the soils...  1Cor 3 " What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. ⁶ I planted,Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. ⁷ So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. ⁸ Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. ⁹ For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. "

Do you see the parallel to my previous post...?  

Am I reading you right?  Because if so, then we may have a lot more in common than you think.  Cool.. How is this taught in Mormonism?

Thanks

Mike

[mickydo]

@ Jane Doe

 

This passage that tripped you up... you said was blasphemy...  is a difficult passage of scripture.  I applaud your zeal for God.

Its at two places Romans 9:18  18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

and 

Exodus passages that talk about "hardening" Pharaoh's heart.  

As far the Exodus sections go...The word "harden" in the Hebrew is actually 3 different verbs and 5 different verb forms... the word appears over 20 times in Exodus.  Having God harden someone's heart and then holding them accountable for a hardened heart strikes us all as a little unfair...  That is not what is actually happening here.. God does not do that.

I used teaching from Dr. Michael Brown.. he has a PHD in semetic languages... its a tough study but an interesting one.  If you can find a good hebrew scholar in the LDS tradition with stuff online I'd like to know their name.

The Romans passage is indicating God has complete sovereignty over humanity.. It does not mean God does not love humanity.

thanks

Mike  

 

Edited September 27, 2016 by mickydo

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, mickydo said:

This passage that tripped you up... you said was blasphemy...  

Correction: the scripture is not blasphemy, it is of God.  YOUR interpretation contradicts rest of scripture and is blasphemy.  For example John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".  God gave His Son so that the ENTIRE world might be saved that which people if THEY believe they should not perish.  This contradicts your idea that God doesn't really love all of humanity and chooses to arbitrary damn some people and forces others to Heaven against their will and regardless of their lack of belief.  

5 hours ago, mickydo said:

I used teaching from Dr. Michael Brown.. he has a PHD in semetic languages... its a tough study but an interesting one.

Could you refer me to a scripture that says I should lean on the "wisdom" of sinners?  Meanwhile I refer you to Galatians 1:12 for the proper way.  

Edited September 27, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[mickydo]

Hi Jane doe,

John 3:16 in context is about "believers"..  Do a word study on Johns use of the word "world" and you will see.  Are you interpreting "world " as "humanity"...  put "humanity" in place of the word "world"  each time it comes up include verse 17 in this as well... it uses  "world " three times...and see if the sentence makes sense.    To most peoples sense it doesn't..  therefore the word "world" has different meanings. 

 

31 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Could you refer me to a scripture that says I should lean on the "wisdom" of sinners?  Meanwhile I refer you to Galatians 1:12 for the proper way.  

Everyone is a sinner... by that standard you shouldn't learn from anyone here in the forum... do you?  By the same standard none of us can learn from you.

Gal 1:12 is describing His personal experience.  First century Apostles were a unique class of believer.  This is not a prescription for the entire church.. It was his alone .. none of the other Apostles speak of such an experience or promise one to all believers for all time everywhere. 

lemme make two points outta the bible... one from jesus, one from paul

Jesus the night before his death prayed this "Sanctify them by Your truth; Your word is truth" John 17:17.  "Them" in this passage are His followers.  

Paul spent several years in Ephesus.. In his farewell speech in Acts 20 Paul tells his beloved Ephesians this... "Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

My point is....  both these texts refer us to the "The Word".  What will keep us on the straight and narrow..? "the Word".   Not subjective voices, promptings, leadings or however they are transmitted..  Both men refer us to God's Word.. which has the additional benefit of blessing us when we hear it, being eternal in nature and being God-breathed truth to which we outta test those "voices'.

My first experience with Christianity was through Pentecostalism... Im embarrassed at what I did,, and what they taught me.  I trusted them... it ended up really hurting me and my family for many years.  We see the Word in a much different light these days..

Thanks

Mickydo 

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

First of all, that is a great question, one that all reasonable Christians have pondered. In response, I would say that how I know what is correct depends on the specific issue. There is not one blanket proof for all of my interpretations of scripture. You have to spend time studying out each individual thing. There has been times where I do believe something and someone uses the Bible to explain to me why it is wrong. At that point, I say, "You know what? Your'e right." 

As I said, I can't be 100% certain that I am completely correct on everything. For example, some people say that the rapture will happen before the tribulation, others say in the middle, and still others say at the end. I have my opinion on which it is, but the point I am trying to make is that little things like that don't matter all that much. I don't think someone who believes in a post-tribulation rapture is going to hell (or outer darkness).

With that said, there are still things that are crucial, such as what someone believes about Jesus Christ, salvation, and other gods. I believe that the things that are crucial are purposefully spelled out clearly in the Bible. You are probably wondering why they are still debated if they are clearly explained. Often, things are distorted through tradition. Satan also distorts truth sometimes to trick people. He has been doing that since the beginning of time. As for why I am sure about these things, my reasoning depends on the question. However, I always turn to the Bible for answers because God uses the Bible to speak to us. 

If you (or anyone else reading this) have any questions as to why I believe a specific doctrine, feel free to message me. I would love to talk about anything.

I'll end with one of my favorite verses. Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

You say, you cannot be 100% certain about everythiing?  Why do you think you can be 100% certain about anything?  Especially :"in Biblical text?  What do you think Paul meant when he said, "Prove all things"?

 

The Traveler

[Larry Cotrell]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You say, you cannot be 100% certain about everythiing?  Why do you think you can be 100% certain about anything?  Especially :"in Biblical text?  What do you think Paul meant when he said, "Prove all things"?

 

The Traveler

As I said before, the things that are absolutely essential are clear in the Bible. All I was saying is that there are things I admit that I am not 100% sure about. For example, some say Satan was an angel, others say he wasn't. I have my reasons and verses for believing that he was an angel, but I don't think you have to share my opinion on that to go to heaven.

The bottom line is this: the things that are extremely important are clear. Things like, was Satan an angel, are up for debate but I don't have to be 100% certain about that. 

Again, if anyone has questions on why I believe a specific doctrine, feel free to message me. I would love to talk about it. We are commanded to "prove all things" and "hold fast that which is good" (1 Thesselonians 5:21).

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, mickydo said:

John 3:16 in context is about "believers".

A believer is someone who chooses to believes.  God does not force some to believe and some to be damned, as you are suggesting.  

1 hour ago, mickydo said:

Everyone is a sinner... by that standard you shouldn't learn from anyone here in the forum... do you?  By the same standard none of us can learn from you.

You shouldn't look to me or any other human for your Truth.  Truth comes from God, not from someone elected of men.   

1 hour ago, mickydo said:

First century Apostles were a unique class of believer.  This is not a prescription for the entire church.. It was his alone .. none of the other Apostles speak of such an experience or promise one to all believers for all time everywhere. 

No where in the Bible does it say this.  No where in the Bible does it say we should turn away our direct line of communication with God to instead look to leaders elected of men (which is what a phD is). 

 

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

As I said before, the things that are absolutely essential are clear in the Bible. All I was saying is that there are things I admit that I am not 100% sure about. For example, some say Satan was an angel, others say he wasn't. I have my reasons and verses for believing that he was an angel, but I don't think you have to share my opinion on that to go to heaven.

The bottom line is this: the things that are extremely important are clear. Things like, was Satan an angel, are up for debate but I don't have to be 100% certain about that. 

Again, if anyone has questions on why I believe a specific doctrine, feel free to message me. I would love to talk about it. We are commanded to "prove all things" and "hold fast that which is good" (1 Thesselonians 5:21).

 

You really did not answer my question.  How do you know anything with 100% certainty?  But let’s begin with perhaps the biggest – How do you know that Jesus is the Christ?  The story of his birth, life, miracles is not a new epoch introduced in the antiquities.  For example, Zoroaster was born of a virgin mother and G-d as his father with signs in the heavens (including an angel appearing to his mother and a new star in the heavens) – he performed miracles (many of which were duplicated by Jesus) – he was put to death for the sins of the world and was resurrected – all in an epoch tale recorded in historical time many centuries before Jesus.  And Zoroaster was not the only one to follow this epoch format.  Why are you 100% certain Jesus is the correct and one and only Christ?  And that the Bible is not just a copy of things that already existed prior to when the Bible manuscripts were created in the first place? 

And there are many more – how do you know that the ancient Egyptian epoch of the creation (which is more detailed and in line with modern science) is not more accurate (reliable) than the Bible – which could have been copied from things that already existed in the human ideas of things – I bring up the epoch of Egypt because Moses was educated in Egypt as a prince and is the only source of Creation for those that believe in the Bible.  How do you know or why do you think you know that the Bible itself if reliable?

 

The Traveler

[jdf135]

1) To reiterate one of the responses above, look at the annotations in the LDS printing of the Bible that reference the Joseph Smith Translation (JST). He went through it verse by verse and sought inspiration (incidentally he also spent a lot of time studying ancient languages - the Lord always expects us to do our part and then he helps. )

2) To see some of the different translations/interpretations, go to the biblehub.com.  Numerous versions are there from various sources -- some quite enlightening.  I have used it in teaching Sunday School. 

3) I know of no authorized LDS book or treatise that lists errors in the Bible.  I don't think LDS like to or should emphasize what is "wrong" but should always emphasize the interpretations that give us better understanding/enlightenment.  I believe sometimes personal inspiration can come from even the oddest verses.  Maybe even some of the "errors" could inspire people toward God.  The bottom line is God's truth ultimately comes through the Spirit as a personal witness to our hearts whether via scripture, the spoken word or prayer. In other words, you will have to find out for yourself through direct communion with the divine if this Article of Faith is "true." 

4) There is a book in publication, NOT from an LDS author but from an atheist/skeptic, detailing many errors in transcription or purposeful alterations of the Bible over the last 2000 years that can be quite clearly identified through study of old manuscripts and other scholarship.  This particular author's purpose seemed to be to weaken the faith of believers.  Because it was so negative, I hesitate to mention it but can provide the title if you wish.  Actually, for me as a "Mormon," the book just emphasized what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints already teaches: the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated - through the Spirit's inspiration - correctly. 

 

[mickydo]

5 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

A believer is someone who chooses to believes.  God does not force some to believe and some to be damned, as you are suggesting.  All are already fallen.. All are in the default position of fallenness.. God does not need to damn anyone specifically since we have all fallen from Adam already.

You shouldn't look to me or any other human for your Truth.  Truth comes from God, not from someone elected of men.  I dont look to for truth just your interpretation of it.  The Guy I suggested is a Jew who knows Hebrew really well.  Since over half the bible is originally written in this language.. Hebrew scholars are helpful.. BYU has a few of these.. I bet. 

No where in the Bible does it say this.  No where in the Bible does it say we should turn away our direct line of communication with God to instead look to leaders elected of men (which is what a phD is).  I just quoted you Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul saying in the affirmative... "get your truth from the word".. that would categorically exclude revelation into your head.

JaneDoe.. what would be your single best subject in Mormonism..  What do feel you know best.. an area of expertise?

Thanks

Mike

 

 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

15 hours ago, mickydo said:

Am I reading you right?  Because if so, then we may have a lot more in common than you think.  Cool.. How is this taught in Mormonism?

I want to be sure we're speaking the same language before I go further; so let me backtrack:

 

Quote

There's more to this, but I want to try to digest your other post first.  What I'm getting from it so far, is that works have nothing to do with our being justified(a.k.a. "saved"); Yes God is the one who justifies... Rom 8:33 but they Believers  may have a great deal to do with whether--or to what degree--we are sanctified Yes.  One evangelizes, not to identify those souls that are justified--God has already chosen them--(but to invite the justified souls to also become sanctified.)..No  

We evangelize because Christ commands us to.. Great Commision Matt 28:19.   
 

Matthew Chapter 13... whole thing... are "Kingdom Parables".  This is information not revealed in the old testament but applicable to the Kingdom Christ is already underway setting up...  

Not sure if you are aware but the symbols used in the parables once identified retain that association throughout the bible.

Matt 13:3-9 Parable of the Soils .. very important concept for Protestantism...  not sure if Mormonism highlights it as much.

Seed = the word

Soil = humanity both elect and non-elect

birds = false teachers or errant doctrine

thorns = worldly distractions

The Word is the seed and is proclaimed throughout the earth...As Isaiah 55:11 says  So will My word which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."    ...We preach the gospel...  as you can see from the parable several outcomes are possible... I think you get the parable...  

look at this statement from Paul in light of Parable of the soils...  1Cor 3 " What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. ⁶ I planted,Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. ⁷ So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. ⁸ Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. ⁹ For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. "

Do you see the parallel to my previous post...?  

Yeah, I'm familiar with the parable; though I'm not sure the LDS and mainstream Christian interpretations quite overlap.  But like I said--let's make sure we're speaking the same language before we go further.  Can you help me to break down your paradigm a little more formally--and if I'm misstating you please feel free to edit?  Here's how I'm interpreting you:

1.  There is the population of the earth, as a whole.

2.  There is some subset of that population whom God has chosen to be saved--a.k.a. "justified".  That subset is called the "elect".  The rest of the earth's population are the "non-elect".  One's classification in one of these two groups, is wholly unrelated to both a) one's actions, and b) one's decision to believe/exercise faith. 

3.  One can be a member of the "elect"--a.k.a. "saved", a.k.a. "justified", but still not be sanctified. 

4.  We evangelize, not because we expect to accomplish anything of ourselves; but because Jesus commanded us to.    Jesus commanded us to evangelize, because He hopes that the "elect"/"justified"/"saved" will also be sanctified; and sanctification comes through (at minimum) making a conscious decision to accept God's word/true doctrine as it is preached through servants like Paul, Apollos, etc.

5.  The non-elect will always be the non-elect without regard to what they do, what they believe, whether they exercise faith, and whether they are ever evangelized.  They were basically instruments of damnation from the moment of their creation.

I'll have some follow-up questions on this paradigm, but could you first let me know whether the above is an accurate restatement of your position? 

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, mickydo said:

A believer is someone who chooses to believes.  God does not force some to believe and some to be damned, as you are suggesting.  All are already fallen.. All are in the default position of fallenness.. God does not need to damn anyone specifically since we have all fallen from Adam already.

Do you believe a person chooses to believe (note: this is an action on their part), or do you believe that God forces belief on all believers?

If you believe the second option, then logically you also believe that God is 100% culpable for all the damned people, because God choose not to force their belief.

1 hour ago, mickydo said:

No where in the Bible does it say this.  No where in the Bible does it say we should turn away our direct line of communication with God to instead look to leaders elected of men (which is what a phD is).  I just quoted you Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul saying in the affirmative... "get your truth from the word".. that would categorically exclude revelation into your head.

Uhhh... no.  Your stance here makes no sense.

1 hour ago, mickydo said:

JaneDoe.. what would be your single best subject in Mormonism..  What do feel you know best.. an area of expertise?

I'm not following you: how does this question relate to anything we're talking about???

Edited September 28, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[mickydo]

 

Hello Again,

1.  There is the population of the earth, as a whole. God foreknows individuals Eph 1:4  "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."  God prior to creation could have created a world in which ALL are saved.. NONE are saved or SOME are saved.  We have to give God the freedom to define what kind of creation he plans on creating.  Some people will not accept this fact and must have a God of there own choosing. 

2.  There is some subset of that population whom God has chosen to be saved--a.k.a. "justified".  That subset is called the "elect".  The rest of the earth's population are the "non-elect".  One's classification in one of these two groups, is wholly unrelated to both a) one's actions, and b) one's decision to believe/exercise faith.  Yes... We are helpless in our sinful nature to course correct... Eph 2:1 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins." Eph 2:4-5 " But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"   So... Who has made us alive.. God has.. 

3.  One can be a member of the "elect"--a.k.a. "saved", a.k.a. "justified", but still not be sanctified.  Sanctification is a process that never completes in this world, God's call on our life is effectual (no doubt) but it does not have to be immediate.   “Like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow” (1 Peter 2:2).  Peter encourages us to do the right thing but each of us have differing levels of cooperation and conviction.  last thought.. If sin being present in the individual can cancel out being justified how is anyone saved?  Sanctification is aspiring to genuine holiness but never realizing its culmination. (in this world)..

4.  We evangelize, not because we expect to accomplish anything of ourselves; but because Jesus commanded us to.  Its obedience and heavenly reward are two big motivations.. there are other benefits too.     Jesus commanded us to evangelize, because He hopes that the "elect"/"justified"/"saved" will also be sanctified; and sanctification comes through (at minimum) making a conscious decision to accept God's word/true doctrine as it is preached through servants like Paul, Apollos, etc. God allows us to play a role in the construction of His church.. that is preaching the gospel and making disciples of those who respond.  But how does God envision this process?  Romans 10:13 " WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? God is using us to call out to the elect who respond. It's helpful to lead them in prayer to acknowledge the new beginning point of their life.  In reality God chose this person long before "the foundations of the world".   

5.  The non-elect will always be the non-elect without regard to what they do, what they believe, whether they exercise faith, and whether they are ever evangelized.  They were basically instruments of damnation from the moment of their creation. Insert Romans 9.. whole chapter... I cannot support how you phrased that.. let God say it...  The most offensive text in the bible... most people cant even read it...  Romans 9  "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? ²² What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? ²³ And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, ²⁴ even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. "...  God said it... Most people reject it out of hand... I think it's a test of trust....

Isaiah 55:9  "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Genesis 18:25  "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

I support Gods clear text even though it offends my fleshly wisdom.. I trust that He can resolve what I cannot.

Good nite!

Mickydo

I'll have some follow-up questions on this paradigm, but could you first let me know whether the above is an accurate restatement of your position? 

[Jane_Doe]

@mickydo Are you aware that >90% of Christianity disagrees with your position here, and that these believes were not taught until the latter part of the Reformation?  (I'm not saying either of these facts prove anything, just asking if you're aware).

[mickydo]

yeah Jane.. Im aware...    oh whoa is me

The first bible study my wife and I went to... starting about 12 years ago... did the book of Romans.  The bible study was led by the Asst Pastor of the church.  When we got to Romans 9.. we skipped it the whole chapter... along with chapters 10, and 11.  

So yeah..  my introduction to Chapter 9 was do not read it, study it, pretend its not there. 

I asked the pastor in the moment.. Why are we skipping this?  He said because it talks about nations and it's a very complicated section..."

The real question is...  Do we get to pick a choose truth out of the bible?  If God has inspired these texts, preserved them for us, and declares these are eternal truths... is'nt a bit dangerous to start yanking out bits we dont like?  I think God has not given us enough information to understand this.  Were not in place to answer back to God.. "this part sucks I dont accept it".  That is what most do... If you leave this out, God's meaning of the words "elect" and "chosen" become seriously diminished.  That has consequences because you begin down the road of turning the God of the bible into something He is not.

I personally like John 10 on this difficult material.. sheep hear their masters voice and follow him.  They recognize the masters voice, he leads them and they enter by Him, sheep follow Him, are known by Him and the sheep know Him.  Such are the qualifications of the sheep 

Those who are not true sheep will surround themselves with preaching they want to hear.  Pastors preaching straight outta the bible never need worry about offending the sheep. The sheep have no other shepherd.  

This from Apostle Paul.. some of his final words..  2 Tim  ³ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, ⁴ and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. ⁵ But you, be sober in all things,endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Ill get to your other questions tonight after work... jane... have a good day!

Mickydo

[Larry Cotrell]

23 hours ago, Traveler said:

You really did not answer my question.  How do you know anything with 100% certainty?  But let’s begin with perhaps the biggest – How do you know that Jesus is the Christ?  The story of his birth, life, miracles is not a new epoch introduced in the antiquities.  For example, Zoroaster was born of a virgin mother and G-d as his father with signs in the heavens (including an angel appearing to his mother and a new star in the heavens) – he performed miracles (many of which were duplicated by Jesus) – he was put to death for the sins of the world and was resurrected – all in an epoch tale recorded in historical time many centuries before Jesus.  And Zoroaster was not the only one to follow this epoch format.  Why are you 100% certain Jesus is the correct and one and only Christ?  And that the Bible is not just a copy of things that already existed prior to when the Bible manuscripts were created in the first place? 

And there are many more – how do you know that the ancient Egyptian epoch of the creation (which is more detailed and in line with modern science) is not more accurate (reliable) than the Bible – which could have been copied from things that already existed in the human ideas of things – I bring up the epoch of Egypt because Moses was educated in Egypt as a prince and is the only source of Creation for those that believe in the Bible.  How do you know or why do you think you know that the Bible itself if reliable?

I want to take sufficient time to answer because this is a very important question. I will try to answer that tonight, as I didn't have time yesterday. 

Until then, here's 2 Timothy 3:16, another one of my favorites.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Edited September 28, 2016 by Larry Cotrell