I guess I'm just a horrible abusive mother

[SALZBURGERMADL]

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I'm sorry to say this but I hate that talk.  I much prefer Sis. Okasaki's talk Healing From Sexual Abuse or Elder Holland's talk Like A Broken Vessel. 

Thanks though.

It helped me because it confirmed to me that forgiveness is a process that comes through healing.  To many people expect a victim to let it go and forgive right away 

[Sunday21]

14 hours ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

I have also relied on the healing power of the atonement and that has made a tremendous difference. But like Elder Scott said in a talk given many years ago, healing from abuse takes a long time. 

I have a read the talks that you refer to (and the others mentioned here). I have no idea what the "healing power of the atonement" means. How does one operationalize this? what does this process look like?

[Jane_Doe]

12 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I have a read the talks that you refer to (and the others mentioned here). I have no idea what the "healing power of the atonement" means. How does one operationalize this? what does this process look like?

The atonement is a great healing power.

Through the atonement, Christ removes any guilt you have.

Through the atonement, Christ removes any burden have having to blame others.

Through the atonement, Christ understands all the sin you've done.

Through the atonement, Christ understands all the sin you've been on the receiving end of.

Through the atonement, Christ has the power to understand all wounds: how they got there, how they hurt, how to remove them.

Through the atonement, Christ has the power to HEAL ALL wounds. 

[anatess2]

22 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I have a read the talks that you refer to (and the others mentioned here). I have no idea what the "healing power of the atonement" means. How does one operationalize this? what does this process look like?

The healing power of the atonement is basically forgiveness to top all forgiveness.  So, how this is healing... you know how you twist yourself in pretzels in remorse for something you do... like me throwing a plate at my husband, for example... knowing that Christ asked the Father to forgive me for I don't know what I do allows me to forgive myself as well.

Just as much as it applies to the abuser, it also applies to the victim.  A victim having been hurt by an abuser can lean on the atonement to know that Christ forgives the abuser too so the victim can join in Christ's example of forgiveness to forgive the abuser.

Forgiveness is very healing.  It is a way of letting all that bitter/negative emotions go.  It allows a person to look at the situation with compassion for our fellowmen instead of with hatred.  The example of the Amish forgiving the person who killed their membership is testament to this.  Compassion, of course, does not mean that we should just leave ourselves open to more abuse.  Rather, compassion means that we help the abuser overcome his weaknesses that causes him to inflict that pain on people - even if that means putting him in jail for life so that he won't have the chance anymore to hurt others.  It is drastically different to demand justice out of vengeance (not healing at all) and demand justice out of compassion.

About your question to LP on how it is possible to have forgiven and still be angry... one is spiritual, the other is mortal.  Your spirit forgives but you haven't quite achieved that level of having your spirit rule your mortal self, so your emotions still need some time to get over its base instincts.

Edited October 20, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

It helped me because it confirmed to me that forgiveness is a process that comes through healing.  To many people expect a victim to let it go and forgive right away 

I certainly agree with that.

[Jojo Bags]

19 hours ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

Once again my adult daughter has reminded me of what an abusive mother I am. I'm heartbroken that according to her all my kids see me as being such a terrible person. I know I'm far from perfect and I know that I have made plenty of mistakes, but I rarely raise my voice at them. I do write angry texts at times because I'm afraid of confrontations. Once in a while, maybe once or twice per year, I loose it and yell. I used to yell a lot more when the kids were younger because I was under a lot of stress due to challenges and trauma. I'm just heartbroken that they see me as being that kind of a person.  My husband doesn't help much because he comes from a perfect lds family who never raised their voces. How bad am I really?

 

You sound like a normal human being to me.

[SALZBURGERMADL]

3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I'm sorry to say this but I hate that talk.  I much prefer Sis. Okasaki's talk Healing From Sexual Abuse or Elder Holland's talk Like A Broken Vessel. 

Thanks though.

It helped me because it confirmed to me that forgiveness is a process that comes through healing.  To many people expect a victim to let it go and forgive right away.

Trust me, I am not Mother Theresa. There have been times in the past when I lost it and screamed. But the point is that I'm human and make mistakes. Within 8 years I had gone from a bad marriage, loosing a newborn, abandonment by husband whIle pregnant with 2 little ones, moving to a new country, becoming a stepmother to teens who were grieving the loss of their mother, a very rocky marriage and did not want me and the list goes on. To say I was stressed was an understatement and I very quickly plunged into a deep suicidal depression. I had very little support during those times and my life was not easy.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

7 minutes ago, SALZBURGERMADL said:

It helped me because it confirmed to me that forgiveness is a process that comes through healing.  To many people expect a victim to let it go and forgive right away.

As I said before, I totally agree. I wrote the book on this. Well, one chapter in my book was devoted to this.  

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

As I said before, I totally agree. I wrote the book on this. Well, one chapter in my book was devoted to this.  

You wrote a book?  I want a copy.  What's it called?  Is it on Amazon?

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I have a read the talks that you refer to (and the others mentioned here). I have no idea what the "healing power of the atonement" means. How does one operationalize this? what does this process look like?

Excellent Question.  

1) First, read The Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball.

2) Principle:  Christ's Atonement makes forgiveness real.  The very concept that we can forgive one another is only valid because of the Atonement.  And, of course, receiving forgiveness in Eternity is also made possible by the Atonement.

3) Principle: Forgiveness is not just an action or decision.  It is a power, an energy, a force.  You either have it in your heart or you don't.

4) Corollary: As such, when we refuse to forgive others, we are also shutting out that force from allowing us to recieve that same forgiveness.  So, D&C 64:10 isn't just a commandment.  It is an eternal principle.

5) If we don't have forgiveness for our own sins, we will always carry things inside - unhealthy things.

It may seem unfair to some that we have to forgive severe offenses against us to receive forgiveness for our own minor shortcomings.  But that is an Eternal principle.  Christ forgave the Romans for piercing His hands and feet.  He forgave the Jews who rallied against Him.  He forgives each and every one of us who caused him to bleed at every pore.  Yet He offended NO ONE.

Yes, we are required to forgive the beam in another's eye to receive forgiveness for the mote in our own.  That is how we are healed.

 

Edited October 21, 2016 by Guest

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You wrote a book?  I want a copy.  What's it called?  Is it on Amazon?

Awww, thanks! Yes, I did, and it is on amazon. I have two books actually.

The one I was referring to is called Touching His Robe: Reaching Past the Shame and Anger of Abuse. 

I have a chapter about forgiveness where I use the analogy of snake venom.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0692202072/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477004754&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=touching+his+robe

My other book is short, like a novella, but non-fiction. It's called, Everything I Needed to Know About Parenting I Learned in Prison.  As a correctional officer . . .  :D. 

[Sunday21]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The healing power of the atonement is basically forgiveness to top all forgiveness.  So, how this is healing... you know how you twist yourself in pretzels in remorse for something you do... like me throwing a plate at my husband, for example... knowing that Christ asked the Father to forgive me for I don't know what I do allows me to forgive myself as well.

Just as much as it applies to the abuser, it also applies to the victim.  A victim having been hurt by an abuser can lean on the atonement to know that Christ forgives the abuser too so the victim can join in Christ's example of forgiveness to forgive the abuser.

Forgiveness is very healing.  It is a way of letting all that bitter/negative emotions go.  It allows a person to look at the situation with compassion for our fellowmen instead of with hatred.  The example of the Amish forgiving the person who killed their membership is testament to this.  Compassion, of course, does not mean that we should just leave ourselves open to more abuse.  Rather, compassion means that we help the abuser overcome his weaknesses that causes him to inflict that pain on people - even if that means putting him in jail for life so that he won't have the chance anymore to hurt others.  It is drastically different to demand justice out of vengeance (not healing at all) and demand justice out of compassion.

About your question to LP on how it is possible to have forgiven and still be angry... one is spiritual, the other is mortal.  Your spirit forgives but you haven't quite achieved that level of having your spirit rule your mortal self, so your emotions still need some time to get over its base instincts.

Thank you very much for this explanation. This is much clearer. Many thanks.

[Sunday21]

@Carborendum

thank you for this explanation, I confess that I do not understand this. I will read the miracle of forgiveness, perhaps this will help. Thank you!

[Sunday21]

@LiterateParakeet

wow! You are amazing!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

10 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@LiterateParakeet

wow! You are amazing!

Thanks, blush.....

When I get to work, I'll share some thoughts of me about my journey to forgive my abuser. 

[Sunday21]

26 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Thanks, blush.....

When I get to work, I'll share some thoughts of me about my journey to forgive my abuser. 

Great! I really appreciate you sharing. Thank you.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

First off, I apologize that this is really long.  If you get impatient reading, feel free to skip to the end.  I just can't be brief when talking about forgiveness because there is so much misunderstanding on this topic.  

@Sunday21, okay where to begin.  First, let me say I think an entire book could be written on forgiveness, without being redundant in any way.  Perhaps some day I'll give it a try.  What I mean by that is simply that forgiveness is complex, it means different things to different people, and can change depending on what you are dealing with, and whether you are asking for forgiveness or being asked to forgive.  If you are being asked to forgive, that's a whole other complication.  After all, it's a very different matter to forgive someone for stepping on your toes (literally) than to forgive someone for sexually abusing you.  There is a huge gamut there, and yet some people treat it as if it's one thing.  It's not.  Sometimes forgiveness takes time, a long, long time, and that's okay.  Sis. Cheiko Okazaki said that for survivors of sexual abuse forgiveness can take on average about 20 years.  I think that sounds right.

The next thing to consider is that we often quote the Lord saying that we must forgive everyone.  No need to quote it because we all know it right?  And we know that Jesus told Peter to forgive seventy times seven.  But lesser known is the counsel Christ gave about forgiving repeat offenders in D&C 98.  Since this one is less familiar, I will quote it.  This section was a revelation given to Joseph Smith when he learned about some of the persecutions of the Saints in Missouri--which even though we don't like to talk about that either, included rape of the women, even gang rapes.  D&C 98

Quote

39 And again, verily I say unto you, if after thine enemyhas come upon thee the first time, he repent and come unto thee praying thy forgiveness, thou shalt forgive him, and shalt hold it no more as a testimony against thine enemy—

Notice the condition here "if" thine enemy repent and ask forgiveness . . . 

Quote

 40 And so on unto the second and third time; and as oft as thine enemy repenteth of the trespass wherewith he has trespassed against thee, thou shalt forgive him, until seventy times seven.

Here's another mention of the seventy times seven, but the enemy asked forgiveness.  

Quote

 

41 And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

 42 And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

 43 And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.

 

Sometimes they don't ask forgiveness and we still need to forgive them, but there is a limit to the Lord's patience as we see in the next verses . . . 

Quote

 

44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and reward thee four-fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee.

 45 And if he do this, thou shalt forgive him with all thine heart; and if he do not this, I, the Lord, will avenge thee of thine enemy an hundred-fold;

 

This is a powerful scripture.  

Well-meaning people love to tell abuse victims to forgive.  I know they mean to be helpful, but for years I've tried to explain to them that pressuring someone to forgive before they are ready hurts, it doesn't help.  There are so many reasons for this.  But to keep this as brief as possible, I'll just say:  in order to forgive we need to work through the pain of the injury afflicted.  Premature "forgiveness" is not real and impedes healing.  And when you tell someone to forgive, they may take your message to mean that you don't think what happened to them is that big of a deal.  

Now to my personal story: I got so tired of well-meaning people telling me to forgive, as if that were some magic bullet to peace (it isn't), that I started thinking of forgiveness in a very negative light.  (Another reason not to pressure people.)  The upside of this was that in my anger and frustration, I set out to truly understand for myself what forgiveness is and what it isn't.  Most importantly what did the Lord expect from me.  As part of that process, I found the scripture that I shared above, and the quote from Sis. Okazaki.   I talked to people and realized that if you ask ten people what forgiveness means, you might get ten different answers.  
At last I made my peace with the idea of forgiveness as something I would do when I was ready, a goal to work toward, but without pressure.  It was something between me and the Lord. "Forgiveness is between me and the Lord and no one else."  I would tell anyone who had the temerity to broach the topic.

What I meant about forgiving and still being angry..... We all want healing to be a linear accent, like scaling a mountain face....straight up.  But healing is not like that.  I don't even think an analogy of a mountain road with switch backs applies unless it wraps all the way around the mountain.  I've come to understand healing more like a spiral staircase.  

I've had a lot of practice forgiving.  I had to forgive myself, the Lord, my mother and my abuser.  I'll just share my experiences with the last two.

After my mother died, at first I was angry.  How dare she die before we had a chance to work out our issues.  I knew full well how illogical that was, but it didn't change the way I felt.  I was really angry.  I was concerned about going to her funeral because there I would be with my siblings and others who were mourning and I would be the crazy angry one.  But the Lord blessed me with peace and understanding....this is very important.  I think too often we think of forgiveness as something "we" do.  In small cases, like someone hurting your feelings, maybe it is, but when it comes to serious hurts and damage like abuse, we need the Lord's help.  He wants to help us, and we shouldn't leave him out of the process.  

Because the Lord helped me with a measure of peace and understanding, I felt genuine forgiveness toward my mother.  I was able to go to her funeral, and be supportive to those who were mourning.  It was a very healing experience.  I did feel lighter, and better, and all those things that are promised when we forgive.  So could I have done it sooner?  No, it wouldn't have been possible without working through the emotions and memories.  It took time, the Lord, my therapist and I to get to that point...without those steps, I could not have achieved the final goal.

I was so happy that I had finally done it.  I had forgiven my mother, and it gave me hope that some day I would also be able to forgive my abuser...some day.   Then one day, I remembered something about my mom and...you guessed it...I found myself angry again.  How could this be?  I panicked.  Did this mean I hadn't really forgiven her?  Will the Lord be upset with me?  Will I not be able to feel peace anymore?  

That's when my therapist explained to me that healing is not a linear accent, however much we wish it to be.  It's a spiral staircase.  I worked through that incident and felt forgiving again.  Until the next loop around, and the next bout of anger.

I have forgiven my mom.  Does that mean I never feel angry any more?  No. The difference is though that before I was able to forgive her, I was genuinely angry with HER.  Now, I see her as someone who did the best she could with the light and knowledge, strengths and weaknesses that she had.  I can accept her as a person, and I am not angry with HER.  I do, however, still get angry sometimes about THINGS that happened in our life together.  That's not the same way as being angry with her.

Only very recently, have I come to the point where I can say, I forgive the person who abused me.  It's taken me 40 yrs or 7 yrs depending on if you count from when the abuse stopped, or when I started therapy.  It doesn't really matter, the point is that as I said before: forgiveness takes time, and no one should be rushed in the process.  It's very personal work between that person and the Savior.  Now that i have experienced it, yes, I do have a greater level of peace than before.  Again could I have done it sooner? No.  I had to work through a lot of pain, shame and anger to get to this point.  To say I had forgiven any soon would have been lying to myself.  

If you are still reading,   would you like to know how it happened?  I was in therapy, and I lamented that it was unfair that I am still suffering the effects of the abuse, and he just gets to go on with his life, with no consequences or repercussions. So unfair.  My therapist said, "I think he is suffering.  He is probably miserable.  We don't know what made him do the things he did, but he was obviously not a happy, healthy person to have done that."  (That's paraphrased, of course, but that's the general idea.)

I was shocked. Then I remembered that someone who is still in contact with him told me he is still as angry now as ever (obviously he is not happy.)  I had never considered that he might be hurting too.  Well maybe on an intellectual level, I did, but not deep in my heart.  This time I felt it in my heart. He is a miserable, unhappy person.  I'm sure he is now, and was also long before I met him.  His life has been one of pain, anger and shame.  He acted out that pain, in part by hurting me.  Suddenly, I felt sorry for him.  I actually felt sorry for him.  It's mind boggling, but I still feel it.  

I don't believe he has ever or will ever feel the joy I feel in my Savior, or in my husband and children.  He has prostate cancer (the irony) and will die a lonely single old man.  I'm sure there will still be times, in the future, when I remember things and feel angry that those things happened, but for him there is just pity.  

That is how I can forgive him and still be angry at the same time.  

[Sunday21]

Thank you so much! You have really thought this through. I am very grateful. You know some years ago when I was working through similar issues there was nothing intelligent written on these issues- lots of junk! And absolutely nothing from a lds perspective. We have a wide range of issues to deal with in the church and not as much guidance as we need. Consequently church concelors, at least in my area, do a lot of harm, well meaning people but ignorant.

in the outlying area of the church, we have serial abusers who marry and divorce repeatedly. I have been told that we have a policy that the women are not to gossip about these serial abusers, eg warn other women, although no church authority has told me so, only other women. With the shortage of male priesthood holders, women can be very forgiving of behaviour that would not be tolerated outside the church. 

We also have financial abuse. When I first returned to the church, I was scammed by people, someone I visit taught who created an emergency situation. Elderly lady out of food, need help now. In a situation where you cannot reach leaders quickly to check and everyone is an amateur, it is an effective strategy. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by Sunday21

[Guest]

12 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Awww, thanks! Yes, I did, and it is on amazon. I have two books actually.

The one I was referring to is called Touching His Robe: Reaching Past the Shame and Anger of Abuse. 

I have a chapter about forgiveness where I use the analogy of snake venom.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0692202072/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477004754&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=touching+his+robe

My other book is short, like a novella, but non-fiction. It's called, Everything I Needed to Know About Parenting I Learned in Prison.  As a correctional officer . . .  :D. 

Just bought it.  Will receive Monday.  I look forward to reading it.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Just bought it.  Will receive Monday.  I look forward to reading it.

Thanks so much!  You've made my day.   

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

27 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Thank you so much! You have really thought this through. I am very grateful. You know some years ago when I was working through similar issues there was nothing intelligent written on these issues- lots of junk! And absolutely nothing from a lds perspective. We have a wide range of issues to deal with in the church and not as much guidance as we need. Consequently church concelors, at least in my area, do a lot of harm, well meaning people but ignorant.

in the outlying area of the church, we have serial abusers who marry and divorce repeadly. I have been told that we have a policy that the women are not to gossip about these serial abusers, eg warn other women, although no church authority has told me so, only other women. With the shortage of male priesthood holders, women can be very forgiving of behaviour that would not be tolerated outside the church. 

We also have financial abuse. When I first returned to the church, I was scammed by people, someone I visit taught who created an emergency situation. Elderly lady out of food, need help now. In a situation where you cannot reach leaders quickly to check and everyone is an amateur, it is an effective statetgy. 

Oh yes.  I understand what you are talking about.  Fortunately I haven't experienced the financial abuse, but I've seen others get caught in it in different ways.  I definitely understand about the frustration of finding the help we need to deal with these issues through the church.  It is very frustrating.  I wish I knew the answer.   

ETA: Sharing the truth in order to protect someone else from pain is not gossip, in my opinion!

Edited October 21, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

in the outlying area of the church, we have serial abusers who marry and divorce repeadly. I have been told that we have a policy that the women are not to gossip about these serial abusers, eg warn other women, although no church authority has told me so, only other women. With the shortage of male priesthood holders, women can be very forgiving of behaviour that would not be tolerated outside the church. 

No authority in the Church has ever said that we should not warn others about abusers.  We must only refrain from gossip.

Gossip is specifically hear-say for which there is no evidence.  Rumors move faster than the speed of light because they have the power to effectively change the past.  There is nothing wrong with telling someone the truth with good intent.  But make sure it is the truth.  There are some bells that we cannot un-ring.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Guest

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Oh yes.  I understand what you are talking about.  Fortunately I haven't experienced the financial abuse, but I've seen others get caught in it in different ways.  I definitely understand about the frustration of finding the help we need to deal with these issues through the church.  It is very frustrating.  I wish I knew the answer.   

ETA: Sharing the truth in order to protect someone else from pain is not gossip, in my opinion!

I really agree! I feel that the women of the church should band together and share the horror stories but the women who have been abused in this way, say it is forbidden. I have a friend who was superactive in the church. She met a man through single adults. He had at least 2 previous marriages. Confessed to one. He had a child by my friend and went to work in the US-so left the country. He is now married to at least the 3rd wife, maybe 4th. He has paid no child support. His behavior, which I will not describe, was shocking.

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

No authority in the Church has ever said that we should not warn others about abusers.  We must only refrain from gossip.

Gossip is specifically hear-say for which there is no evidence.  Rumors move faster than the speed of light because they have the power to effectively change the past.  There is nothing wrong with telling someone the truth with good intent.  But make sure it is the truth.  There are some bells that we cannot un-ring.

Here is a wonderful talk by a church leader that I admire greatly.

It includes the statement:Do you gossip, even when what you say may be true?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-merciful-obtain-mercy?lang=eng

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

No authority in the Church has ever said that we should not warn others about abusers.  We must only refrain from gossip.

Gossip is specifically hear-say for which there is no evidence.  Rumors move faster than the speed of light because they have the power to effectively change the past.  There is nothing wrong with telling someone the truth with good intent.  But make sure it is the truth.  There are some bells that we cannot un-ring.

I agree with you about the definition of gossip for sure.   The problem I see in the church has not been with the General Authorities, but on the local level . . .  the story involved a family whose daughter was sexually abused by a relative.  All involved were members and we asked not to talk about it.  The family of the abused daughter followed that counsel, but others didn't so they got gossiped about, but no one got to hear the truth.  And that was only the tip of the iceberg.  

When things like this happen, I have to keep reminding myself that Jesus Christ is perfect, and He calls the best people He can to lead His church, but none of the leaders are perfect and mistakes can happen.  I just try to have faith that the Lord will make everything right in the end.  

@Sunday21 I had a friend once who was engaged.  She told me that her Bishop asked her and her fiancé to come in and talk to him. When they came in, the Bishop looked at him and said, "Have you told her?  Or shall I?"

This young man was gay, and that is why his first marriage failed.  Now he was engaged again, but hadn't thought to tell his fiancé about his history.  Fortunately in that case the Bishop intervened. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by LiterateParakeet