Do I Believe?

[Sunday21]

Dear Sis and Bro's,

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/media/session_4_talk_6/4829400508001?lang=eng

This is the general conference talk that I need to base a lesson on in 4 weeks. I confess that when I read this talk, I wondered if I could give some kind of excuse not to give this lesson, but it is me or the overloaded RS education leader who is very tired looking. I don't know how to approach this lesson. The talk seems to differentiate between two types of testimonies:

1) based on "what makes sense" e.g. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon; therefore I know the church is true because Joseph Smith both wrote the Book of Mormon and was the first prophet.

2) testimonies based on pure conviction.

The talk seems to take the position that #2 type testimonies are superior and that we need to achieve this #2 testimony.

I could give out slips of paper asking people if they have this #2 testimony, could they share this testimony during the meeting but..

A) this approach seems rude, intrusive and mean.

B) I think people would be insulted and feel judged

What to do?

[Anddenex]

I don't think it is rude; however, some members may misunderstand and could feel insulted and judged. These lessons aren't easy because without any intention a person may feel they have #2 and then begin to doubt due to personal insecurities and confidence in their own testimony and knowledge. 

I, personally, would avoid signaling anyone out by #1 or #2 and simply ask people who are willing to share to share their testimony, their personal conviction, to specific principles of the gospel. This way no one feels pointed out and no one will feel any less worthy of the blessings of the gospel. 

[Guest]

@Sunday21,

I get a different interpretation from the talk.  So, my advice would not really address the question as it was asked.  But it may still help you with your lesson plan.

This may seem like semantics, but I believe it is somewhat different than what I'm reading in your OP.  You've heard of the difference between believing in Christ without believing Christ?  This means several different things.

1) When we say we believe, we mean we believe it.  We believe in good principles of living; we believe in personal revelation; we believe in REVELATION; we believe in living oracles of God; we believe in miracles; we believe in MIRACLES; we believe in SCRIPTURES; we believe that there is a world that is far beyond our ability to imagine that makes all of life "but a dream".  We truly believe all that Christ has promised us, both personally, and through his servants the prophets.

2) It means that any true belief will drive action.

Quote

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

 9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

10 And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them.

Mosiah 4:10

3) It also means that the change is not just superficial.

Quote

Christ says,"Give me All. I don’t want so much of your time and so much of your money and so much of your work: I want You...

The terrible thing, the almost impossible thing, is to hand over your whole self—all your wishes and precautions—to Christ. But it is far easier than what we are all trying to do instead. For what we are trying to do is to remain what we call ‘ourselves’, to keep personal happiness as our great aim in life, and yet at the same time be ‘good’. We are all trying to let our mind and heart go their own way—centered on money or pleasure or ambition—and hoping, in spite of this, to behave honestly and chastely and humbly.

And that is exactly what Christ warned us you could not do. As He said, a thistle cannot produce figs. If I am a field that contains nothing but grass-seed, I cannot produce wheat. Cutting the grass may keep it short: but I shall still produce grass and no wheat. If I want to produce wheat, the change must go deeper than the surface. I must be ploughed up and re-sown.

It may be hard for an egg to turn into a bird.  But it is impossible for an egg to learn to fly.

CSLewis1900-1963.pdf see sections 3 through 6.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Guest

[Sunday21]

Wow. Thank you @Carborendum for posting this. This seems similar to the Christ rebuilding your house analogy. It feels very uncomfortable because G-d is building a mansion, when you had hoped, to add on a small manageable little addition. I am not sure that I have the guts to present this interpretation. In my ward we need every pair of hands, consequently in relief society we have two groups of people: those who serve in RS and those who refuse callings. For those who refuse callings, I have some sympathy. Often their English is not great or their lives are quite harsh. A number of the sisters come to church to sleep. My current Rs president did this for years. Refused to be drawn into personal conversations. She is now a dynamite Rs president. Really smart but as she tells us, they really had to twist her arm to get her to accept the position!

in Rs I tend to put people into buzz groups. When I do this, they mutter darkly but in a minute or two they love it! Every time, they love the experience. I feel as though I have a coven of witches at the beginning of the lesson and sweet sisters by the end. Putting people in groups means they cannot fall asleep, the very shy feel more comfortable, and the English as a second language people can follow. But the glares at the beginning of the lesson are intimidating!

i will reread your material many times and see if I have the guts to broach this!

[Sunday21]

9 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I don't think it is rude; however, some members may misunderstand and could feel insulted and judged. These lessons aren't easy because without any intention a person may feel they have #2 and then begin to doubt due to personal insecurities and confidence in their own testimony and knowledge. 

I, personally, would avoid signaling anyone out by #1 or #2 and simply ask people who are willing to share to share their testimony, their personal conviction, to specific principles of the gospel. This way no one feels pointed out and no one will feel any less worthy of the blessings of the gospel. 

Thank you for this! What specific aspects of the gospel do you think would work with this lesson? 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

12 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

in Rs I tend to put people into buzz groups. When I do this, they mutter darkly but in a minute or two they love it! Every time, they love the experience. I feel as though I have a coven of witches at the beginning of the lesson and sweet sisters by the end. Putting people in groups means they cannot fall asleep, the very shy feel more comfortable, and the English as a second language people can follow. But the glares at the beginning of the lesson are intimidating!

By buzz groups, you mean that you break them up into small groups?  I used to grumble about that too, but now I embrace it.  I've thought that next time I teach I will use Buzz groups, and I will explain it this way to the sisters:

People learn best when they contribute to the conversation, and it is easier to contribute in smaller groups.  So in order for everyone to really get something out of this lesson, I will be dividing you up later.  

Then I would give some sort of intro, partially to give the idea of small groups time to settle in.  I haven't tried it yet, but I think that giving them warning coupled with an explanation would be helpful.  I totally agree with your reasons for dividing them.  Do it!

[Sunday21]

Thanks @LiterateParakeet. I am stealing your intro. Perfect! Any advice on the lesson? Help!

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I am not sure that I have the guts to present this interpretation. 

i will reread your material many times and see if I have the guts to broach this!

An important part of teaching lessons like this is to keep in mind that "we're all in the same boat."  I get the impression that men are better at this than women are.  Men are perfectly fine admitting we're messing up and we just keep trying anyway.  Women tend to feel like if they're not doing everything right, they're messing up.  Well, I guess that's true.  But we're just not perfect.

The idea is that we're striving for perfection.  There is always a balancing act.  I wish I could find the talk that a GA gave that said something like:

Quote

While we must do all we can to reach perfection, it doesn't necessarily mean that we must be exhausted when we get there.

I think that people are all along the spectrum about which message they should get.  Some need a swift kick in the pants to get going on the perfection thing.  Others need to remember that:"it is not meet that a man (or woman) should run faster than he has strength."

---I was on a construction site once when I had to get a message to the guy at the other end.  It was important, so I ran as fast as I could.  What I found was that I was so out of breath when I got to him that I couldn't give him the message.  If I had gone too slowly, he would have left the site and I wouldn't have been able to deliver the message.

But if I had paced myself, knowing that my body had limits, then I could have gotten there in an efficient manner and still had the breath to deliver the message.  This is balance.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

10 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Thanks @LiterateParakeet. I am stealing your intro. Perfect! Any advice on the lesson? Help!

The lesson?  Nope.  I'm with you, I'd be trying to pass the buck if I could.   For example:

"Do we sometimes become so accustomed to the blessings we have been given as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that we fail to fully comprehend the miracle and majesty of discipleship in the Lord’s true Church? Are we ever guilty of being complacent about the greatest gift we can be offered in this life? The Savior Himself taught, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.”   https://www.lds.org/ensign/2016/05/sunday-morning-session/do-i-believe?lang=eng

I have a hard time relating to this. Really, really hard. My life has been challenging since childhood.  I don't have the breathing room to be complacent.  If complacency is one's biggest problem then I just don't know what to say to that person.  I can't imagine.      

If I were teaching this I would probably side-step it a bit and just get the sisters talking about what blessings they are most grateful for from the gospel.   

[Sunday21]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

An important part of teaching lessons like this is to keep in mind that "we're all in the same boat."  I get the impression that men are better at this than women are.  Men are perfectly fine admitting we're messing up and we just keep trying anyway.  Women tend to feel like if they're not doing everything right, they're messing up.  Well, I guess that's true.  But we're just not perfect.

The idea is that we're striving for perfection.  There is always a balancing act.  I wish I could find the talk that a GA gave that said something like:

I think that people are all along the spectrum about which message they should get.  Some need a swift kick in the pants to get going on the perfection thing.  Others need to remember that:"it is not meet that a man (or woman) should run faster than he has strength."

---I was on a construction site once when I had to get a message to the guy at the other end.  It was important, so I ran as fast as I could.  What I found was that I was so out of breath when I got to him that I couldn't give him the message.  If I had gone too slowly, he would have left the site and I wouldn't have been able to deliver the message.

But if I had paced myself, knowing that my body had limits, then I could have gotten there in an efficient manner and still had the breath to deliver the message.  This is balance.

Cool! Excellent analogy.

[Sunday21]

8 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

The lesson?  Nope.  I'm with you, I'd be trying to pass the buck if I could.   For example:

"Do we sometimes become so accustomed to the blessings we have been given as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that we fail to fully comprehend the miracle and majesty of discipleship in the Lord’s true Church? Are we ever guilty of being complacent about the greatest gift we can be offered in this life? The Savior Himself taught, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.”   https://www.lds.org/ensign/2016/05/sunday-morning-session/do-i-believe?lang=eng

I have a hard time relating to this. Really, really hard. My life has been challenging since childhood.  I don't have the breathing room to be complacent.  If complacency is one's biggest problem then I just don't know what to say to that person.  I can't imagine.      

If I were teaching this I would probably side-step it a bit and just get the sisters talking about what blessings they are most grateful for from the gospel.   

Thank you. I, by the way, am in a similar boat as yours. I can tell you honestly that my parents could have cared less about me. I did not have an easy start and I am still struggling.

Should everyone be a parent? No, no. A thousand times No! I am going with your suggestion!

Edited October 25, 2016 by Sunday21

[Sunday21]

@JaneDoeJane any suggestions?

[Sunday21]

@LiterateParakeet

Re:  Then I would give some sort of intro, partially to give the idea of small groups time to settle in.  I haven't tried it yet, but I think that giving them warning coupled with an explanation would be helpful.  I totally agree with your reasons for dividing them.  Do it!

I should give this more gentle entry into the groups. Instead of saying "I am going to divide you into groups!". Yeah. An explanation might help!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

11 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@LiterateParakeet

Re:  Then I would give some sort of intro, partially to give the idea of small groups time to settle in.  I haven't tried it yet, but I think that giving them warning coupled with an explanation would be helpful.  I totally agree with your reasons for dividing them.  Do it!

I should give this more gentle entry into the groups. Instead of saying "I am going to divide you into groups!". Yeah. An explanation might help!

Yes.  I used to hate it when we were divided into groups, but then I learned that it is beneficial, so I thought with that knowledge and a warning, people would be more receptive.  I haven't had a chance to try it yet, so let me know how it goes.   

 

[Anddenex]

10 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Thank you for this! What specific aspects of the gospel do you think would work with this lesson? 

What do you think is the purpose of this lesson? Is it increasing our testimony, or acting more on what we already know (which would be the conviction aspect)? My experience with teaching is that once you discover the "purpose" and if open ended like yours, then what "purpose" has weighed heavy in your heart and mind and then look for gospel application.

The aspect of "true conversion" seems to correlate with what you are sharing.

[Sunday21]

I think The speaker is trying to point out that the lds church is not just one of many churches but the only true church. We are not just trying to live good and productive lives but to gain our salvation and eternal life for ourselves and our family. I have no idea how to teach this talk or this topic. I just got through teaching about refugees and church policy, not an easy sell in this rust bucket town!

[Sunday21]

I would not actually do this as I think that this would upset people but I think what the speaker is saying might be summed up in a poll.

Do I believe in the Lds church?

Do I believe this strongly enough to change my way of life? To do things that make me feel uncomfortable?

Do I believe strongly enough to obey the commandments, even the ones I do not like?

Do I believe strongly enough to live without fear of dying?

To live courageously?

To live without fear?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I would not actually do this as I think that this would upset people but I think what the speaker is saying might be summed up in a poll.

Do I believe in the Lds church?

Do I believe this strongly enough to change my way of life? To do things that make me feel uncomfortable?

Do I believe strongly enough to obey the commandments, even the ones I do not like?

Do I believe strongly enough to live without fear of dying?

To live courageously?

To live without fear?

I think you hit it on the head.  This is not something that I'd ask for responses from.  But I would ask the questions rhetorically.  It might be a good conclusion to ask these questions and then bear your testimony.

[CV75]

On 10/24/2016 at 4:07 PM, Sunday21 said:

Dear Sis and Bro's,

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/media/session_4_talk_6/4829400508001?lang=eng

***

What to do?

I think the talk differentiates between complacency and interest; between knowing of our “profound claims” / “distinguishing features” and actually believing them; and between our heads and our hearts. Ultimately she distinguishes between faith and doubt. I see all this as a differentiation between testimony and conversion. Many people with testimonies take them for granted because they are not converted through ongoing faithful adherence and application to what they know of, or know to be true.

In answer to what to do, I would take another approach to the lesson!

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I think you hit it on the head.  This is not something that I'd ask for responses from.  But I would ask the questions rhetorically.  It might be a good conclusion to ask these questions and then bear your testimony.

Here's the tricky problem. I can not pass this test! I spend most of my life muttering under my breath. Why is G-d so mean to me? Why does He not help. Well maybe I will take the poll and publicly humiliate myself..probably the sisters will laugh. Should actually be a good teaching point. Well, might as well...what's a bit more humiliation after all? I hate obeying the Sabbath..despite information on this point from above. I do it but I am constantly whining to myself about it. My one day off! Can I go to a movie, no! Watch tv, no! Everyone else in my profession except those very close to retirement works 7 days a week. Grumble Grumble..Yes, I think that I will put it in the lesson!

[Sunday21]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the talk differentiates between complacency and interest; between knowing of our “profound claims” / “distinguishing features” and actually believing them; and between our heads and our hearts. Ultimately she distinguishes between faith and doubt. I see all this as a differentiation between testimony and conversion. Many people with testimonies take them for granted because they are not converted through ongoing faithful adherence and application to what they know of, or know to be true.

 

In answer to what to do, I would take another approach to the lesson!

Great feedback. What approach would you take?

[Anddenex]

14 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I think The speaker is trying to point out that the lds church is not just one of many churches but the only true church. We are not just trying to live good and productive lives but to gain our salvation and eternal life for ourselves and our family. I have no idea how to teach this talk or this topic. I just got through teaching about refugees and church policy, not an easy sell in this rust bucket town!

Your questions are excellent and right on point. If this is what you have felt the purpose of this lesson would be then what objective learner readiness will help kick the topic off?

What are some scriptural examples that highlight your questions? What gospel principle helps us to live courageously in the face of fear (as courage is what we do in the presence of fear, not the absence of it)?

What examples of scripture do we have of people who changed their lives, who then endured trials, and remained faithful? (Amulek)

1 Nephi 10:17, 19 -- Conviction begins with a desire and witness from the Holy Spirit from one who speaks by the Holy Spirit. Esther is a great example of courage, conviction, to live a life in the presence of death, but knew she was doing the right thing for her people.

What principles highlight the purpose?

[Sunday21]

Thank you @Anddenex! These ideas are really useful. I will ponder this! Thanks again.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Here's the tricky problem. I can not pass this test! I spend most of my life muttering under my breath. Why is G-d so mean to me? Why does He not help. Well maybe I will take the poll and publicly humiliate myself..probably the sisters will laugh. Should actually be a good teaching point. Well, might as well...what's a bit more humiliation after all? I hate obeying the Sabbath..despite information on this point from above. I do it but I am constantly whining to myself about it. My one day off! Can I go to a movie, no! Watch tv, no! Everyone else in my profession except those very close to retirement works 7 days a week. Grumble Grumble..Yes, I think that I will put it in the lesson!

This is what I was saying earlier about being in the same boat.  We're all a work in progress.  We can't hope to pass any tests when we've just barely gotten on the road to discipleship.  It's a process and takes time.  The only test we pass is that we have enough faith to actually try -- and mess up -- and try again.

In fact, it would probably be a great thing for you to share "a little bit" about your feelings of inadequacy.  That may actually bring peace to others who also have the same feelings of inadequacy.  Let them know that it's ok to feel that way.  Most of us do.

The other day in Sunday School the teacher asked,"So how do we consider the monumental task of being perfect without getting super depressed?"

I responded,"Well I do end up getting super depressed." I said it in a comical tone.

The entire class chimed in with laughter and agreement.  We all do feel that way. Let them (and yourself) know that it's okay to feel some discouragement.  But it's more important to pick up and keep going.  The biggest secret to perfection is that we keep trying no matter how many times we fail.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Guest

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Great feedback. What approach would you take?

If any of the  kinds of differentiation I listed resonate with you, i would formulate a discussion around any of those. Ask the class for example, "What is the difference between testimony and conversion?" Of course you might also have the class members discuss how we show complacency and interest in (pick a principle); how we show we believe in (pick a “profound claim” / “distinguishing feature”); and how the Spirit speaks to our heads and our hearts, and where our deepest convictions reside.

And of course offer quotes from talk or any of the footnoted scriptures: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/do-i-believe?lang=eng

If one particular segment of her video strikes you as particularly pertinent to your class members' needs, you might want to show that clip.