Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont cant have empathy towards a trans or homosexual who have supposed desires and feelings because the love I share with my wife is completely different, in fact, the opposite of what they feel. I thus cant empathize with them because they do not experience the peace and eternal reflection of godly joy I feel.

Well good for you.  You only have felt desire for one woman in your life.  Bravo.  Then yes, you can't empathize with the feeling of unrighteous desire because you have not felt it before.  Not everyone is so lucky.

Now, because you have not felt any desire outside of your marriage, then you are not qualified to talk about homosexuality or transgenderism.  You simply do not understand it.

Edited February 23, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

20 hours ago, lostinwater said:

So to confirm, you believe the people in the study noted above are also delusional?  that study is referring to people whose bodies exhibit physically apparent conflicts between male/female parts.  i understand you think people like my friend are mentally ill (and i respect that, though i disagree), but to associate people with physically deformed bodies with mental delusion merely by nature of their bodies?

While I understand there are physical anomalies in some cases, what is it about your friend that says he is in any way different than the norm?  He simply "believes" he's a female spirit?  What is his basis for it?

When there is no logical, revelatory, or physical evidence or basis for believing something so strange and out there, then we have to look at mental illness as a high probability.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No, I just understand semantics really well and how political agendas and movements such as the LGBT use trickery to confuse people with words to get them on their side.

I love how you never answered my question.  You must love sitting in your brain so much that you don't have room for anything else but your own self-righteousness.

[NightSG]

17 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Now, because you have not felt any desire outside of your marriage, then you are not qualified to talk about homosexuality or transgenderism.

Then no one is allowed to talk about death on here ever again, since none of us have experienced it.

[lostinwater]

39 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Let me ask you this- Do you have empathy for serial killers?

There is a great book called Just Mercy - written by a man who defended many of them as a lawyer.  One of the greatest books i've ever read.  Strongly recommend.  Yes, i do have sympathy/empathy towards them.  Not because they deserve it - because they need it.  How grateful i am that Jesus gives all of us what we need, at least as much as we're willing/able to accept - and not what we deserve.  If we all got the empathy and compassion we deserve, Jesus would never have come at all - and it wouldn't matter if you were a white liar or a serial killer - we'd all be headed to exactly the same place, guaranteed.

And Rob - i really believe you do have compassion towards these people - porn stars, transgender, serial killers.  We can argue the semantics of language (sympathy vs empathy) - but i'd bet dollars to pesos that if you saw a serial killer getting beaten, you'd try to stop it.  If you saw them weak with hunger, you'd feed them.  If you saw them weeping, you'd try to comfort them.  You are a man of impeccable morals - or else you'd not feel prompted to defend what you've said so strongly.  

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

There is a great book called Just Mercy - written by a man who defended many of them as a lawyer.  One of the greatest books i've ever read.  Strongly recommend.  Yes, i do have sympathy/empathy towards them.  Not because they deserve it - because they need it.  How grateful i am that Jesus gives all of us what we need, at least as much as we're willing/able to accept - and not what we deserve.  If we all got the empathy and compassion we deserve, Jesus would never have come at all - and it wouldn't matter if you were a white liar or a serial killer - we'd all be headed to exactly the same place, guaranteed.

And Rob - i really believe you do have compassion towards these people - porn stars, transgender, serial killers.  We can argue the semantics of language (sympathy vs empathy) - but i'd bet dollars to pesos that if you saw a serial killer getting beaten, you'd try to stop it.  If you saw them weak with hunger, you'd feed them.  If you saw them weeping, you'd try to comfort them.  You are a man of impeccable morals - or else you'd not feel prompted to defend what you've said so strongly.  

All of us here could learn so much from you. Another beautiful response 

 

[Rob Osborn]

56 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

There is a great book called Just Mercy - written by a man who defended many of them as a lawyer.  One of the greatest books i've ever read.  Strongly recommend.  Yes, i do have sympathy/empathy towards them.  Not because they deserve it - because they need it.  How grateful i am that Jesus gives all of us what we need, at least as much as we're willing/able to accept - and not what we deserve.  If we all got the empathy and compassion we deserve, Jesus would never have come at all - and it wouldn't matter if you were a white liar or a serial killer - we'd all be headed to exactly the same place, guaranteed.

And Rob - i really believe you do have compassion towards these people - porn stars, transgender, serial killers.  We can argue the semantics of language (sympathy vs empathy) - but i'd bet dollars to pesos that if you saw a serial killer getting beaten, you'd try to stop it.  If you saw them weak with hunger, you'd feed them.  If you saw them weeping, you'd try to comfort them.  You are a man of impeccable morals - or else you'd not feel prompted to defend what you've said so strongly.  

Of course I have compassion and sympathy for trans and gay people, same with murders and the like. But thats different than empathy. Empathy carries with it a sense of affirmation. Affirmation means "emotional support or encouragement." 

So, when I say I do not have empathy for trans and gay agendas it means I do not support and encourage their cause by having felt and share their desires and feelings.

[lostinwater]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Of course I have compassion and sympathy for trans and gay people, same with murders and the like. But thats different than empathy. Empathy carries with it a sense of affirmation. Affirmation means "emotional support or encouragement." 

So, when I say I do not have empathy for trans and gay agendas it means I do not support and encourage their cause by having felt and share their desires and feelings.

Thanks Rob.  Valid point.  i am not in the same frame of mind that these people are always wrong - but i definitely respect your beliefs.  i think that is the point everyone was trying to make though.  That these people should be treated compassionately - and that where possible, we try to understand someone's past before judging their current condition, and avoid making blanket statements - even if it seems to us like those statements might be generally accurate - and there seems to be plenty of circumstantial evidence/studies to support it.

Honestly, i said something a while back in this thread - that loving one's neighbor was the most important thing - and @yjacket correctly pointed out that loving God was actually the most important thing.  I lack some of the backbone that you do, and so even though i believe that statement is still basically accurate, backtracked on it - because it wasn't technically correct.  

Perhaps you are in a similar situation - and are just a more persistent person than me?

[Suzie]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Of course I have compassion and sympathy for trans and gay people.

 

If you don't mind, how do you show it?

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont cant have empathy towards a trans or homosexual who have supposed desires and feelings because the love I share with my wife is completely different, in fact, the opposite of what they feel. I thus cant empathize with them because they do not experience the peace and eternal reflection of godly joy I feel.

And this really is the root of our differences. Having taken the time to befriend and get to know people in the LGBT community, it is clear to me that the love they have for their partners is no different from the love I have for my wife. The emotional bonds are often just as strong, and the sense of commitment and personal sacrifice that they make for their partners runs just as deep. Perhaps more so because some elements of society still choose to marginalize them.

[Guest Godless]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

But thats different than empathy. Empathy carries with it a sense of affirmation. Affirmation means "emotional support or encouragement." 

I think we've established that this is a false definition. You certainly haven't offered any valid argument to support it. 

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Godless said:

Perhaps more so because some elements of society still choose to marginalize them.

Thank goodness this is changing. While I agree, too many people DO marginalize or treat homosexuals differently in 2017 it's no longer socially acceptable. You'll be called out for it. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by MormonGator

[yjacket]

57 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Thank goodness this is changing. While I agree, too many people DO marginalize or treat homosexuals differently in 2017 it's no longer socially acceptable. You'll be called out for it. 

And unfortunately in 2017 too many people are willing to accept sin and call it good rather than call it what it is . . .sin. ;-)

Edited February 24, 2017 by yjacket

[yjacket]

1 hour ago, Godless said:

 it is clear to me that the love they have for their partners is no different from the love I have for my wife. The emotional bonds are often just as strong, and the sense of commitment and personal sacrifice that they make for their partners runs just as deep.

I don't doubt that at all.  I also don't doubt that some individuals who have a mistress could say the same thing about their mistress.  But as Christians, we call it what it is . . .sin.  So as Christians we call homosexual behavior what it is . .. sin.  It doesn't matter how much "love" they have for their partner, God does not approve and it is therefore sin.

This ain't hard folks.

Edited February 24, 2017 by yjacket

[yjacket]

If you ever want to know what really has happened in America regarding LGBT and the pushing of this evil agenda to accept sin as normal, just read

After The Ball, written in 1990.  Ever wonder why prior to 1990 the LGBT community got no traction in American Society? What changed? How did it change?

Well this is the manifesto, it even says it right here:

To overcome Americans' deep-rooted aversion to gay men and women, psychologist Kirk and ad man Madsen propose a massive media campaign designed to correct stereotypes and neutralize anti-gay prejudice. PW termed this "a punchy call to arms, Madison Avenue style.

Do you know what they called for in the book?  Wake up and smell the coffee folks. As a society we have been brainwashed and it has been conducted in a very coordinated effect (but you see b/c it was written by a psychologist, it's all good, b/c in our modern society rather than relying on scriptures and Modern Prophets, Psychologist have been our gods and our false prophets.  Here are some highlights (remember it was written in 1990).  Homosexual behaviors are absolutely a perversion and as a society we have accepted it hook, line and sinker and it's only going to get worse.

 Legalized marriage and adoption rights.

• Mandated “domestic partner” policies for all employers, public and private.

• Vast increases in government funding for all homosexual programs.

• Explicit homosexual “education” at all levels of schooling.

• More homosexual teacher/“role models” in the schools.

• Broad dissemination of explicit homosexual literature in schools and public libraries.

• Abolition of “age of consent” laws.

• Abolition of all state and local statutes restricting homosexual behavior.

• Criminalization, prosecution, and persecution of “homophobes,” i.e., religious “bigots.”

• A dramatic increase in the visibility of provocative and “diverse” manifestations of the gay subculture.

• Expanded pervert programming on television.

• Rapid expansion of the gay revolution to small-town, suburban, and rural America.

• Admittance of homosexuals and lesbians into Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and other private youth groups.

 

An article reviewing the book was written in 1998.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/14947-the-queering-of-america

[lostinwater]

2 hours ago, yjacket said:

I don't doubt that at all.  I also don't doubt that some individuals who have a mistress could say the same thing about their mistress.  But as Christians, we call it what it is . . .sin.  So as Christians we call homosexual behavior what it is . .. sin.  It doesn't matter how much "love" they have for their partner, God does not approve and it is therefore sin.

This ain't hard folks.

Thanks @yjacket

Though i don't think people were saying that there is not good reason to believe homosexuality is a sin.  It's just admiring the good in a person (or groups of people).  Realizing that someone can still be good in tons of ways even when they do things that are sinful - surely, we are each more than the sins we commit.  Sadly, i have personally see in myself how when i define someone by their flaws - and demand one thing be different before i acknowledge their goodness in any other way - or i bring up the sin over and over and over and over and over again, it just drives them further away from me.  Do you agree?

Now, i am only acknowledging that homosexual acts are not according to God's Law as i understand it - i find absolutely nothing in biblical teaching that condemns feelings of mortal body/spirit gender conflict.  Though if you know of any, i'd love to hear them. Perhaps not all these feelings are based in reality (though i believe many are), and definitely many people with them make demands of society or do things to their body that  make Jesus sad,  but the feelings themselves - and the idea that mortal body/spirit gender may not be in sync in this life - i see absolutely nothing sinful or inherently inaccurate in them.

 

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks Rob.  Valid point.  i am not in the same frame of mind that these people are always wrong - but i definitely respect your beliefs.  i think that is the point everyone was trying to make though.  That these people should be treated compassionately - and that where possible, we try to understand someone's past before judging their current condition, and avoid making blanket statements - even if it seems to us like those statements might be generally accurate - and there seems to be plenty of circumstantial evidence/studies to support it.

Honestly, i said something a while back in this thread - that loving one's neighbor was the most important thing - and @yjacket correctly pointed out that loving God was actually the most important thing.  I lack some of the backbone that you do, and so even though i believe that statement is still basically accurate, backtracked on it - because it wasn't technically correct.  

Perhaps you are in a similar situation - and are just a more persistent person than me?

I am in complete agreement that we should treat these people, and technically all people as compassionately as is possible, even show sympathy for the things they suffer with, they are Gods children the same as us.

Conversations like this sonetimes are hard to get through because we all use words a little differently and as such semantics really are important. I have actively been in dialogue with trans and gay people for many years and I research carefully the points of arguments and the words used by both sides. A word like "empathy" is one of several words that is used as a type of hidden ammo to push the cause for affirmation in their groups. Ironically, "sympathy" is not used by them very much because it carries the connotation that their drive for affirmatiin lacks moral validity. After all, they dont want straight people to have pity on them, no, they want equality and you dont get equality morally speaking if we see their cause sympathetically.

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Suzie said:

If you don't mind, how do you show it?

Well, for instance I have neighbors who are gay and we, especially my wife, communicate regularly with them, even chat on Facebook and show no disrespect to them or treat them differently.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Godless said:

And this really is the root of our differences. Having taken the time to befriend and get to know people in the LGBT community, it is clear to me that the love they have for their partners is no different from the love I have for my wife. The emotional bonds are often just as strong, and the sense of commitment and personal sacrifice that they make for their partners runs just as deep. Perhaps more so because some elements of society still choose to marginalize them.

Thats where we disagree. I honestly dont think that the true spiritually and godly love that heals the soul and mind and is sealed and ratified by the Holy Ghost as happens in a husband and wife relationship is remotely the same thing as a homosexual couple have together. The long term results, as statistics show, especially in male homosexual relationships, testify to the reality that there really is no long term truly monogamous relationships in general. Why? Because they do not actually achieve the true spiritually connected godly peace only achievable by man and women legally married together. 

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Godless said:

I think we've established that this is a false definition. You certainly haven't offered any valid argument to support it. 

Here the test, the ultimate rubber meet the road test- (yes, its extreme but proves tge point)

Would you have empathy for a serial child molester/murderer who after molesting his victims then tortures them till death and then cuts them up into little pieces all while laughing about it?

[lostinwater]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am in complete agreement that we should treat these people, and technically all people as compassionately as is possible, even show sympathy for the things they suffer with, they are Gods children the same as us.

Conversations like this sonetimes are hard to get through because we all use words a little differently and as such semantics really are important. I have actively been in dialogue with trans and gay people for many years and I research carefully the points of arguments and the words used by both sides. A word like "empathy" is one of several words that is used as a type of hidden ammo to push the cause for affirmation in their groups. Ironically, "sympathy" is not used by them very much because it carries the connotation that their drive for affirmatiin lacks moral validity. After all, they dont want straight people to have pity on them, no, they want equality and you dont get equality morally speaking if we see their cause sympathetically.

Thanks Rob.  Well, to be honest, i am not sure i could have told you the difference between empathy and sympathy before this discussion started.  Your diligence in this regard is impressive.  i've found though that what a person demands is not always what they really want.  These people may demand societal acceptance because they feel like they are under attack.  They tell someone how they feel, and someone tries to infer they are sinning or to get them to see a psychologist.  i'm pretty sure if i shared a very tender and vulnerable part of myself, and someone declared me on a path to hell or a mental hospital without even listening to me, i'd come out of the corner fighting.  If they listened and tried to understand and look at my feelings on a case by case basis, i doubt i'd be so militant towards them - or make so many demands.  i genuinely believe that the transgender community, deep down, is this way.  And i've never been able to change someone anyways.  Whenever i try, i just make it worse.  Jesus, though, can change people.  The most i can do is help to provide the kind of loving environment in which Jesus can change someone.  Not that i agree with your all your thoughts on body/spirit gender conflict - but just because we disagree doesn't mean we're enemies.  i hope not at least - you are a wonderful person.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks Rob.  Well, to be honest, i am not sure i could have told you the difference between empathy and sympathy before this discussion started.  Your diligence in this regard is impressive.  i've found though that what a person demands is not always what they really want.  These people may demand societal acceptance because they feel like they are under attack.  They tell someone how they feel, and someone tries to infer they are sinning or to get them to see a psychologist.  i'm pretty sure if i shared a very tender and vulnerable part of myself, and someone declared me on a path to hell or a mental hospital without even listening to me, i'd come out of the corner fighting.  If they listened and tried to understand and look at my feelings on a case by case basis, i doubt i'd be so militant towards them - or make so many demands.  i genuinely believe that the transgender community, deep down, is this way.  And i've never been able to change someone anyways.  Whenever i try, i just make it worse.  Jesus, though, can change people.  The most i can do is help to provide the kind of loving environment in which Jesus can change someone.  Not that i agree with your all your thoughts on body/spirit gender conflict - but just because we disagree doesn't mean we're enemies.  i hope not at least - you are a wonderful person.

Thanks. We more than likely share a lot in common morally speaking, perhaps more than either of us realize.. 

For someone to be gay or questioning their gender doesnt really bother me, let them live their lives as they wish, its the social justice movements of their support groups that I have major issues with. They are very militant about the way they do things demanding acceptance and rights at the expense of the morally true to lose their rights and voice. Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are under attack, two of our most basic but most important rights. But they dont stop there, no, they publicly ostracize people and businesses into exile to be shunned and ridiculed in the name of "equality" as if their brand of beliefs is the only one that should be recognized and accepted. We are now seeing this new "micro aggression" dependency in the rising generation unable to confront the realities of true free speech and so censorship is the new rule, and any dissent or conservative view is bigotry or hate talk and needs censored.

[Guest Godless]

8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Here the test, the ultimate rubber meet the road test- (yes, its extreme but proves tge point)

Would you have empathy for a serial child molester/murderer who after molesting his victims then tortures them till death and then cuts them up into little pieces all while laughing about it?

No. I would have difficulty feeling sympathy for such an individual, let alone empathy.

That's a very poor empathy test, however. We've established that empathy requires a relatable experience, which doesn't exist in this extreme example. We've also established that empathy does not require or imply affirmation (see my example of addiction). You have yet to provide suitable evidence to the contrary.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Here the test, the ultimate rubber meet the road test- (yes, its extreme but proves tge point)

Would you have empathy for a serial child molester/murderer who after molesting his victims then tortures them till death and then cuts them up into little pieces all while laughing about it?

This isn't really a fair comparison (for me) because I don't have ANY homosexual or transgender tendencies.  But I DO have violent tendencies.

I've never killed anyone.  I've never beat anyone to a pulp.  I've never blown up anyone.  Yadda-yadda.  But I've sure wanted to on occasion.  I could blame my violent streak on Hollywood.  But I remember having violent feelings as a 5 year old.  And, yes, I've even visualized very violent ends to people who have offended me.  Just because I've never acted on it, doesn't mean I haven't felt it.  So, in this case you offer, I don't feel sympathy, but I do feel empathy for them.  I understand how they feel even if I've never DONE anything like that.

And even though I cannot empathize with homosexual or transgender tendencies, I CAN empathize with their struggling with sexual desires that are not in line with the Lord.  This in no way says I approve.  I in no way affirm their actions.  In fact I condemn their actions in the strongest terms -- WHERE AND WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE.  On this thread it really doesn't matter.  All but a couple here know and acknowledge it is a sin.  That doesn't mean we can't empathize with someone who struggles with sexual desire.  It is the most powerful emotive (mortal) force there is.  (Napoleon Hill).

Edited February 24, 2017 by Guest

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, NightSG said:

Then no one is allowed to talk about death on here ever again, since none of us have experienced it.

No, I  can't empathize with anybody dead because I've never been dead myself.  All I can talk to you about is what I believe happens after death.  So, if somebody comes and asks me how to deal with being dead I can tell them what I think but somebody who has been dead before will have more authority on what exactly death is like.