Senate Votes to Require Women to Register for the Draft

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Just saw this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/congress-women-military-draft.html

My first thought is that before they even consider this they need to deal with the issue of rape in the military.  I have plenty more thoughts as I'm not a fan of women in the military . . .

What are your thoughts?

[The Folk Prophet]

My daughter will be forced to go fight in war as a soldier over my dead body.

Edited April 15, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[yjacket]

This is what the feminist want.  To be just like men. 

The article was from last year, I don't think anything got passed to become law.

[Guest Godless]

6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Just saw this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/congress-women-military-draft.html

My first thought is that before they even consider this they need to deal with the issue of rape in the military.  I have plenty more thoughts as I'm not a fan of women in the military . . .

What are your thoughts?

The military has come a long way when it comes to dealing with rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment. There's still plenty of progress to be made, for sure, but I'd say we're a lot better off in that regard than we were a decade ago. Just curious, why don't you believe that women don't belong in the military?

My feelings on this are mixed. On the one hand, it's a great step towards gender equality (and yes, a majority of feminists feel the same way, despite what some right-wing agitators might have you believe). On the other hand, I generally don't support the idea of a draft, regardless of gender. It's an archaic institution that is becoming less and less relevant in the modern age of technology-based warfare. 

[Backroads]

I am not fully opposed to equality in the draft, but at the same time we're not to the genderless role type of society that would make this work with few hiccups. 

[Guest MormonGator]

7 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

What are your thoughts?

 A draft is slavery. A country that can't find a volunteer fighting force does not deserve to survive. I feel very strongly about this. Male or female, a draft is inherently immoral. 

For the record, I'm not against war. I would have volunteered to fight in WWII or WW1 or the the Civil War. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by MormonGator

[Guest Godless]

17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

For the record, I'm not against war. I would have volunteered to fight in WWII or WW1 or the the Civil War. 

Don't you live in the South? 

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Godless said:

Don't you live in the South? 

lol. I meant the English Civil War! Parliamentarian for life! Good ole' cause will live forever! Fifth Monarchists Unite! 

[yjacket]

3 hours ago, Godless said:

 Just curious, why don't you believe that women don't belong in the military?

Because war is absolute hell on earth; nothing else can compare to it.  Why would we subject women to that hell? In addition, war is built for men. On average men have longer endurance, greater strength, greater fortitude and more mental toughness. You call it sexist, I call it reality. Just the simple things of being able to relive oneself is much better suited to men in combat (unless you would like women to wear dresses in combat?).  Then add the combination of men and women in a testosterone driven environment camping together, living together, fighting together. . . if they didn't fraternize I'd be surprised.  The moment you add a women into a group of all males, the dynamics change-it is just the reality of it. It's just the way it is; men and women are built differently, think differently and respond differently.

If you want women fighting, at least keep them completely separated from the men; if I'm knee deep in the crap and my legs get blown out, no way in hades I want a woman beside me to get me to the chopper.

Edited April 15, 2017 by yjacket

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@Godless, yes, @yjacket summed up my feelings well.  If a woman wants to subject herself to that, and the military is willing to accept it then I say, "you do you."  But most of the women I know would NOT be up to the task, and young women less so.  Men and women do have different strengths.  If it were up to me, no one would have to go to war.  I want to be a Pacifist, but then I remember that while Martin Luther King and Gandi were able to accomplish a lot, and I respect them for that, they were still killed in the end.  I don't think a nation like the US has the option to be pacifist.  So I am grateful for those who have the skills, aptitude and desire to defend our country.  I think men are much more suited to that task.

In addition to what Yjacket has already said, there is the issue of families.  I just hate that Christmas song they play every year that has the real voices of soldiers sending love to their families because one of them is a mother and she says her daughter is only three.  I just think that child needs her mother.  It's not my business what they do, but it breaks me heart.  Drafting women would tear more families apart.  It's horrible to tear men away from their families, even worse to take women away.   Call me old fashioned, I guess I am (and I'm okay with that.)   

I realize that Israel has women in their army....isn't that correct?  I admire them, but I hope we never come to that still....

Just curious...thinking about the women in your life...women you personally know well....do you think they could handle combat?

[Guest Godless]

8 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Because war is absolute hell on earth; nothing else can compare to it.  Why would we subject women to that hell? In addition, war is built for men. On average men have longer endurance, greater strength, greater fortitude and more mental toughness. You call it sexist, I call it reality. Just the simple things of being able to relive oneself is much better suited to men in combat (unless you would like women to wear dresses in combat?).  Then add the combination of men and women in a testosterone driven environment camping together, living together, fighting together. . . if they didn't fraternize I'd be surprised.  The moment you add a women into a group of all males, the dynamics change-it is just the reality of it. It's just the way it is; men and women are built differently, think differently and respond differently.

If you want women fighting, at least keep them completely separated from the men; if I'm knee deep in the crap and my legs get blown out, no way in hades I want a woman beside me to get me to the chopper.

Having spent ample time serving alongside women in war zones, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. To be fair, your concerns are perfectly legitimate ones. That's why I don't foresee combat arms units filling up with women anytime soon. There are some women who have what it takes to fill these roles (Army Ranger School has already seen its first female graduates), but a majority likely do not. However, I have no problem giving women a chance to prove that they deserve a spot in the front lines.  

As for fraternization concerns, that's a very real issue in garrison environments (as I said though, we're making progress), but a lot of that goes straight out the window in a true combat theatre. On my first tour in '04, we had two women in a group of 40 drivers/gunners on one mission. They shared tents and barracks with us on the road. I never got the impression that anyone viewed them as anything other than fellow soldiers. The same was true six years later when we hit the supply routes with a slightly more balanced ratio (though still lop-sided). 

[Guest MormonGator]

@Godless thank you very much for your service my friend. You have a more backbone than I do, that's for sure. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

3 hours ago, Godless said:

The military has come a long way when it comes to dealing with rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment. There's still plenty of progress to be made, for sure, but I'd say we're a lot better off in that regard than we were a decade ago.

I hope so!  It's so hard to know for sure about these things since so many women don't report it (and understandably so...).  Honestly, if I were raped, I doubt I would go to the police...with thousands of untested rape kits out there, judges that sympathize with the rapist (did you see that article?) and I can only imagine that things are much worse in the military.  I wouldn't report it.  It's not worth it. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 minute ago, Godless said:

To be fair, your concerns are perfectly legitimate ones. That's why I don't foresee combat arms units filling up with women anytime soon. There are some women who have what it takes to fill these roles (Army Ranger School has already seen its first female graduates), but a majority likely do not. However, I have no problem giving women a chance to prove that they deserve a spot in the front lines.  

Thank you for your service.  I appreciate your opinion since you have first hand experience, and I have...theories...

I couldn't do it.  I'm sure of it.  I don't even like to kill ants, and you know the fight, flight or freeze response....I pretty much freeze do to past trauma.  I know I would not be an asset in combat....of course, I'm too old to be drafted (I think).  My concern is for my daughter.  She's a lot feistier than I am, but I don't think she could kill.  

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Thank you for your service.  I appreciate your opinion since you have first hand experience, and I have...theories...

I couldn't do it.  I'm sure of it.  I don't even like to kill ants, and you know the fight, flight or freeze response....I pretty much freeze do to past trauma.  I know I would not be an asset in combat....of course, I'm too old to be drafted (I think).  My concern is for my daughter.  She's a lot feistier than I am, but I don't think she could kill.  

I don't think there will be a draft for the foreseeable future.  There hasn't been on since Vietnam. Not to make anyone sound old (sorry!) but that was a long time ago. I'm talking 50 years! 

That said, if there is a draft-how could you get out of it? If Uncle Sam wants to draft you, what can you do? That's why we need to abolish it, frankly. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by MormonGator

[Guest Godless]

3 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Just curious...thinking about the women in your life...women you personally know well....do you think they could handle combat?

Interestingly, five of the closest women in my life (my mother, my wife, two of my closest high school friends, and my MIL) all served in the military, though never in a combat role. They're all tough as nails and I have no doubt that they could handle the mental/emotional challenges of it. Perhaps not the physical aspects. Except for my MIL (she was a Marine). Like I said, the number of women who can handle the physical challenges of combat arms work is small. But to be fair, there are plenty of men who lack the mental toughness for it even if they may possess the physical abilities. That being said, there's still ample room in non-combat roles for women in the military.

Also, you'd be surprised what a woman can do in the presence of doubters. One of my gunners on my last tour was a young woman practically half my size. She made a point of proving to everyone that not only could she pull the charging lever on a .50 machine gun (harder than it sounds), but she could also carry said gun to and from the tents, and usually insisted on it. She was tiny, but no one doubted her mental or physical toughness. It's unfortunate that women in the military have to make that extra effort to gain the respect of their peers, but I'm sure it's that much more rewarding for them if they're able to pull it off.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Godless said:

Interestingly, five of the closest women in my life (my mother, my wife, two of my closest high school friends, and my MIL) all served in the military, though never in a combat role. They're all tough as nails and I have no doubt that they could handle the mental/emotional challenges of it. Perhaps not the physical aspects. Except for my MIL (she was a Marine). Like I said, the number of women who can handle the physical challenges of combat arms work is small. But to be fair, there are plenty of men who lack the mental toughness for it even if they may possess the physical abilities. That being said, there's still ample room in non-combat roles for women in the military.

Also, you'd be surprised what a woman can do in the presence of doubters. One of my gunners on my last tour was a young woman practically half my size. She made a point of proving to everyone that not only could she pull the charging lever on a .50 machine gun (harder than it sounds), but she could also carry said gun to and from the tents, and usually insisted on it. She was tiny, but no one doubted her mental or physical toughness. It's unfortunate that women in the military have to make that extra effort to gain the respect of their peers, but I'm sure it's that much more rewarding for them if they're able to pull it off.

I think women serve in combat roles in Israel. I have full confidence that they can serve in whatever roles they want. 

@Godless-if there WAS a draft and your own child was drafted (I don't even know if you have kids, hypothetical situation)-what could you do to keep them from going? 

Edited April 15, 2017 by MormonGator

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@Godless, no wonder you have a different opinion than me, your experiences have been very different.  I appreciate you sharing and helping me open my mind about it a bit more.  The female gunner you mentioned...yes, that would be my daughter too.  She has that kind of strength.  

The whole idea still makes me uncomfortable, but you have given me some good food for thought.  I will continue to mentally marinate this.   Thanks.  

[Guest Godless]

19 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think women serve in combat roles in Israel. I have full confidence that they can serve in whatever roles they want. 

@Godless-if there WAS a draft and your own child was drafted (I don't even know if you have kids, hypothetical situation)-what could you do to keep them from going? 

I have a 3 year-old son. I honestly don't know what my options would be in that situation. As I said, I'm very much against the idea of the draft, but like you I don't think it'll ever happen again. The days of fighting via massive ground armies are over. And in the age of drones, laser-guided missiles, and the "Mother of All Bombs", I don't think that style of combat is ever going to make a comeback. 

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Godless said:

I have a 3 year-old son. I honestly don't know what my options would be in that situation. As I said, I'm very much against the idea of the draft, but like you I don't think it'll ever happen again. The days of fighting via massive ground armies are over. And in the age of drones, laser-guided missiles, and the "Mother of All Bombs", I don't think that style of combat is ever going to make a comeback. 

I agree. 2017 is a totally different world than even 2004. 

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I hope so!  It's so hard to know for sure about these things since so many women don't report it (and understandably so...).  Honestly, if I were raped, I doubt I would go to the police...with thousands of untested rape kits out there, judges that sympathize with the rapist (did you see that article?) and I can only imagine that things are much worse in the military.  I wouldn't report it.  It's not worth it. 

(Tangent):  I hope you don't take the rape kit backlog as a sign of apathy.  The issue with rape kits is that while they can help to determine the identity of a recent sexual partner; they can't determine whether the sex was consensual.  

Since the vast bulk of rape victims already know their attackers, and the defense of most of those attackers will entail claiming that they had consensual sex, the rape kit just doesn't tell us anything useful in the majority of rape cases.  The tactical advantage for prosecutors isn't usually the actual results; it's the fact that the defense knows the kit is out there and therefore doesn't waste the prosecutor's time and energy with boneheaded arguments about having never had sex at all.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

That said, if there is a draft-how could you get out of it?

You leave the country. It's called draft dodging.

[Guest]

Dumbest move ever by Congress.

Do you know what happens to female POWs?  When men are caught in combat, they are usually imprisoned.  When women are caught, they are often raped by their captors (note this is a different phenomenon than rape by fellow servicemen discussed above).  There are some real horror stories from the first Iraqi war about this.

If women want to fight in the army voluntarily, fine, they know the risks and are accepting them of their own free will.  But forcing women to sign up for the selective service with this risk on the table against their will is completely and utterly wrong.  I am convinced Congress has not thought this one through.

Edited April 16, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[yjacket]

3 hours ago, Godless said:

 And in the age of drones, laser-guided missiles, and the "Mother of All Bombs", I don't think that style of combat is ever going to make a comeback. 

That's only b/c we can pick them off from 3000 miles away; you bet your bottom dollar it would come back if we ever picked a fight with a real target instead of just beating up on 2-bit dictators to flex our muscles and show the world who the King of the Hill is.

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 You have a more backbone than I do, that's for sure. 

We all do