Premature Death and Celestial Glory

[Vort]

16 hours ago, clbent04 said:

While this is a merciful doctrine which surely comforts parents who sadly have had to deal with the loss of a young child, is it logical to how we generally understand obtaining Celestial glory?

We are tiny children. We are given milk, because we would choke on bread. To understand the fulness of the truths surrounding the death of little children would require us to have a profound understanding of our premortal lifves, the exact spiritual nature of our lives here, and the nature and sequence of our postmortal awakening, resurrection, and exaltation. You are in no possible way prepared to receive a fuller answer to the question of what happens to little children who die before the age of accountability, so in God's great mercy, you are given a simple, straightforward answer that you can understand to help you along the way. The answer is obviously not complete, but it is still true.

Seriously, clbent04, show a little faith. Nothing wrong with asking questions, but your challenging "Gotcha!" attitude will only hurt you in your efforts to progress.

[Vort]

4 hours ago, clbent04 said:

And wasn't this theory of predesign later debunked by the Church?

No, it was not. The Church made clear that all such teachings were not and are not Church doctrine, and should not be taught as such. That is much different from saying that those teachings are false.

[clbent04]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Seriously, clbent04, show a little faith. Nothing wrong with asking questions, but your challenging "Gotcha!" attitude will only hurt you in your efforts to progress.

@Vort I'm asking sincere questions to something I earnestly would like to understand better.  I'm not saying I'm right, or your wrong, I'm only saying I want to understand more so I more fully study something out in my mind that bothers me.  I don't need to know the answer to every question, but this particular question among others are important to me which is why I'm asking people such as yourself for more perspective

[Mike]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

No, it was not. The Church made clear that all such teachings were not and are not Church doctrine, and should not be taught as such. That is much different from saying that those teachings are false.

I would like to think that you and I are allied. But what you wrote isn't clear to me. Our church embraces truth, I think. If a teaching is not false, then it is true. If a teaching is true, then our church would want it taught. Isn't this so?

[Vort]

Just now, clbent04 said:

@Vort I'm asking sincere questions to something I earnestly would like to understand better.  I'm not saying I'm right, or your wrong, I'm only saying I want to understand more so I more fully study something out in my mind that bothers me.  I don't need to know the answer to every question, but this particular question among others are important to me which is why I'm asking people such as yourself for more perspective

You will not get any such answer. Not from this forum, at least. Any light and knowledge you may receive on the topic of the exaltation of little children who die in childhood will be gotten through direct revelation, and in no other way. You already have in your possession the teachings that have been revealed in our day. If you wish to go beyond that, you won't succeed merely by asking other people to tell you.

[Just_A_Guy]

45 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

 

@Just_A_Guy how else do you interpret Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."  So at least less than half of us, right?

I'm not saying numberless concourses of heavenly beings won't be surrounding God, I'm just saying the majority of us under God's realm will not make it back to live with him in the Celestial Kingdom per Matthew 7:14.  Since there are very few who will be going to Outer Darkness, and not a high percentage of us who are murderers and rapists (Telestial Kindgom - not that all murderers and rapists can't be forgiven and possibly qualify for a higher kingdom), I think most of us will be in the Terrestrial Kingdom.

I'll await a separate thread from you on Matt 7:14.  But for the purposes of this discussion I think it's enough to remember that Jesus isn't talking to a bunch of non-accountable children; He's talking to people who are capable of understanding His words and doing what He says they should do.  Elsewhere the Lord says, speaking of little children, that "of such is the kingdom of Heaven".  Outside of Mormon thought--if a little child dies, and isn't saved, then the alternative is that the child is damned; which makes no sense in light of the above (I'm sorry I can't give you the cite; am posting on the fly).  

I think I should note that as a Mormon, I don't hold with the idea that a little child who does is automatically exalted--with everything that entails--without any further growth or development.  I just think that whatever growth does occur thereafter occurs through some means other than the conventional trials of a mortal experience; and that the child's allegiance to God has already been cemented to the point where the child isn't going to fall away through the rest of the training (s)he is to undergo.

[Vort]

Just now, Mike said:

I would like to think that you and I are allied. But what you wrote isn't clear to me. Our church embraces truth, I think. If a teaching is not false, then it is true. If a teaching is true, then our church would want it taught. Isn't this so?

Absolutely not. There are any number of truths that God reserves for himself and guards jealously, teaching them only when asked by sincere men and women who have readied themselves for the answer.

For an obvious case: God is a corporeal being. We might suppose that means that God has characteristics such as height. Let us suppose that God is nine feet ten inches tall. Pretend for a moment that this is a fact. Am I therefore justified in openly preaching to the world that God is 9'10"? Shall the Church make such a tenet a doctrine of the gospel of salvation? Absurd. A little reflection will reveal all sorts of facts, some of far greater import than the silly example above, that are kept from us.

[Just_A_Guy]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

I would like to think that you and I are allied. But what you wrote isn't clear to me. Our church embraces truth, I think. If a teaching is not false, then it is true. If a teaching is true, then our church would want it taught. Isn't this so?

Mike, that assumes that the Church collectively, and prophets as individuals, openly teach everything they know.  

Experience has shown that this isn't always true.

[Mike]

@clbent04 I wonder if you would clarify something about your thinking. You appear to feel that little children who die before the age of 8 should not go to the Celestial Kingdom. What fate for them is more acceptable to you?

[Mike]

@Vort and @Just_A_Guy Thank you. That makes sense to me.

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Mike

[clbent04]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

@clbent04 I wonder if you would clarify something about your thinking. You appear to feel that little children who die before the age of 8 should not go to the Celestial Kingdom. What fate for them is more acceptable to you?

@Mike An acceptable fate is for them to be judged by God as if they had been allowed to live out their lives, to allow God with His omniscience to see beyond their mortal deaths to judge them based on the type of people they would become

[Mike]

 

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

@clbent04 I wonder if you would clarify something about your thinking. You appear to feel that little children who die before the age of 8 should not go to the Celestial Kingdom. What fate for them is more acceptable to you?

1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

@Mike An acceptable fate is for them to be judged by God as if they had been allowed to live out their lives, to allow God with His omniscience to see beyond their mortal deaths to judge them based on the type of people they would become

Are you unable then to accept the possibility that God does just that; and that God's judgement is that had they been allowed (or rather had God intervened changing who knows how many other lives in the process) to live out their lives they would have become such people?

[clbent04]

28 minutes ago, Mike said:

Are you unable then to accept the possibility that God does just that; and that God's judgement is that had they been allowed (or rather had God intervened changing who knows how many other lives in the process) to live out their lives they would have become such people?

That's exactly what I've reasoned must be the case - God must know that each and every soul who died before reaching 8 years old would have lived a life worthy of the Celestial Kingdom.  But then I defer back to the kindergarten class example and remain skeptical that the entire class would've lived lives worthy of the Celestial Kingdom. For me it makes more sense that all Celestial beings exempt from this mortal test of sin would all be brought forth together in the Millennial Reign.  I'm not saying Mormon teaching of God's way with children dying early on has to make sense to me to be true, I'm just questioning it since it doesn't jibe with me

[Just_A_Guy]

One niggling thing that concerns me a little, here, is the apparent implicit suggestion that "judgment" involves the allocation of "rewards" for stuff we have "earned".  I realize that mainline Christian as well as Mormon rhetoric often lends itself to this view; but I think the better paradigm is that God is evaluating us to determine whether we can become mini-Hims.  Some folks demonstrated that they could even before they were born; and in the eternal scheme of things it was more important that they receive the body than that they have a lot of time with it.

Universities often give  students a chance to test out of various elementary courses. If they pass the test--good for them.  But if they haven't passed, you don't kick them out of school--you just make them take the class.  But there seems to be something unjust about failing a student before the class has even begun.  Similarly--the prospect of exalting children who die in infancy seems less problematic than the idea of damning them.

If you want to get into *really* deep (but unorthodox) Mormon thought--there is some suspicion that where infants are concerned, Joseph Smith may have actually taught that in the resurrection they grow spiritually but not physically; and that might do not attain the same fullness of exaltation (sealed to a spouse, etc) that adults do.  So it may be that, as a Mormon, I know a little less than I'm letting you think I do.  ?

[Mike]

36 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

That's exactly what I've reasoned must be the case - God must know that each and every soul who died before reaching 8 years old would have lived a life worthy of the Celestial Kingdom.  But then I defer back to the kindergarten class example and remain skeptical that the entire class would've lived lives worthy of the Celestial Kingdom. For me it makes more sense that all Celestial beings exempt from this mortal test of sin would all be brought forth together in the Millennial Reign.  I'm not saying Mormon teaching of God's way with children dying early on has to make sense to me to be true, I'm just questioning it since it doesn't jibe with me

I can relate to your feeling of some things making sense and some other things not so much. In my own life some of what I had placed into one box later seemed to have become more appropriately assigned to the other box, and vice versa. Maybe you can relate too. I suppose that with time (and what happens to us) we become compelled to change some of our perceptions.

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Mike

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If you want to get into *really* deep (but unorthodox) Mormon thought--there is some suspicion that where infants are concerned, Joseph Smith may have actually taught that in the resurrection they grow spiritually but not physically; and that might do not attain the same fullness of exaltation (sealed to a spouse, etc) that adults do.  So it may be that, as a Mormon, I know a little less than I'm letting you think I do.  ?

@Just_A_Guy Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.  I won't get caught up on this or anything, but I'm just grasping at the idea of imagining a forever "child" (physically speaking). 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

@Just_A_Guy Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.  I won't get caught up on this or anything, but I'm just grasping at the idea of imagining a forever "child" (physically speaking). 

 

Yeah, it seems odd to me too.  I imagine that having lost several children in infancy (as Smith and many of his contemporaries had), at first blush it might sound like a pretty sweet afterlife. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Rob Osborn]

21 hours ago, clbent04 said:

The Church says that the highest level of salvation, Celestial glory, is automatically awarded to young children who die before they reach 8 years old.  This is because sin is not possible to commit until a child reaches age 8, which is the declared age of accountability.

While this is a merciful doctrine which surely comforts parents who sadly have had to deal with the loss of a young child, is it logical to how we generally understand obtaining Celestial glory?

Should dying at a young age in itself be the reason why Celestial glory is awarded?  Is not faith in Jesus Christ prerequisite to obtaining salvation?   Many children who die before 8 years old are not even capable of comprehending the concept of Jesus Christ as a Savior to mankind.

Some say that these children of premature deaths are special, that each and every one is of Celestial caliber.  If they had been able to live out their lives they would have unquestionably succeeded in living Christlike lives worthy to return to God.

The predicament of being able to logically accept this thinking can be related to the school bus example:

A kindergarten class of 5-year-olds rides the bus home one day.  During the ride, a tire blows out and the bus driver loses control.  The bus veers off a bridge resulting in the tragic deaths of everyone aboard.   How would the teacher of this class describe her class?  Were all these children of perfect behavior?  Was everyone in the class bound to live out the remainder of their lives in a Celestial manner?  Did no one ever yell or argue in that class?  Did no one ever lie?  Did everyone willingly share their toys?  Or was the class similar to any other kindergarten class where kids have different levels of obedience?  Most likely the latter.

Why are a portion of us exempted from the consequence of sin solely because of a premature death?  And how does it make sense that these children are automatically awarded Celestial glory even if they have never accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior?

 

 

 

My personal opinion is that they are just saved from the temporary hell that otherwise awaits the wicked. During the millennium they will live again and get all the opportunities to enter into the necessary covenants required for salvation. At the end of the millennium all of us are tried by Satan one last time. Of course no one will be exempt from choosing at that point whom they will serve.

[clbent04]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Of course no one will be exempt from choosing at that point whom they will serve.

So everyone including children who have died before reaching 8 years old will be tested during the Millennium?  But it wouldn't really even be a test for these children if they can't fail, right?  They already have their Celestial glory secured, correct?  Do they have the possibility of failing the final test during the Millennium? The whole point of a test is having the possible outcomes of either passing or failing.  If they can't fail, why test them at all?  

Edited August 6, 2017 by clbent04

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

So everyone including children who have died before reaching 8 years old will be tested during the Millennium?  But it wouldn't really even be a test for these children if they can't fail, right?  They already have their Celestial glory secured, correct?  Do they have the possibility of failing the final test during the Millennium? The whole point of a test is having the possible outcomes of either passing or failing.  If they can't fail, why test them at all?  

Thats why they will be tried. All of the saibts of Christ will be tried at the end of the millennium. None is exempt.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (Rev. 20:7-8)

[JohnsonJones]

Two questions have arisen in this thread...and I will attempt to give answers as I see them.

1.  There is a DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TRANSGRESSION AND SIN.  Little Children are incapable of sin.  Hence, there is no sin that they commit.  They MIGHT commit transgression.  Transgression is completely covered under the atonement of the Christ.  Sins are a little bit more fickle, but are also covered...but we are required to have faith and repent, be baptized, and endure to the end in relation to sin.  Transgression on the otherhand, including Adams, were completely covered in the atonement.  This means, that little children, who are incapable of sin, even if they have transgressed, are completely covered.  Since this is the case, they are sinless and pure before the Lord.  As they are sinless and pure, they are ensured entry into the Celestial Kingdom.

Which leads us to the second question...

2.  IS this fair or just?  For those who do not believe in a pre-existence, this would seem very unfair and very unjust.  Afterall, they do not have the test that all the rest of those who live beyond the age of 8 must go through. 

For those who believe in a pre-existence...it is obvious the above thought is very shortsighted.  What is this life of less than 120 years compared to the eternity that came prior to it.  If one believes in the pre-existence as taught in the LDS church, one must also believe that we were capable of making choices and decisions in that life.  In fact, that belief is the very essence of why we came to this life and are here when a 1/3 of the host of heaven CHOSE otherwise. 

In that light, WE, each of us, chose what we would go through in this life and what we would learn, suffer, and achieve.  In fact, one way of viewing this life is that it is merely a time for us to choose whether we will follow the Lord or not, that all other choices were already foreseen and made by us previously.  In that light, those who chose to die before the age of 8, were most likely already tested in the life prior, in the pre-existence, in ways which we are not aware of and do not know.  We cannot fathom the tests they passed, or what they showed in order to be proven for their valiance.  What we do know, is that they will go to the Celestial Kingdom in the hereafter, and that the Lord is just.

[Rob Osborn]

12 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Two questions have arisen in this thread...and I will attempt to give answers as I see them.

1.  There is a DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TRANSGRESSION AND SIN.  Little Children are incapable of sin.  Hence, there is no sin that they commit.  They MIGHT commit transgression.  Transgression is completely covered under the atonement of the Christ.  Sins are a little bit more fickle, but are also covered...but we are required to have faith and repent, be baptized, and endure to the end in relation to sin.  Transgression on the otherhand, including Adams, were completely covered in the atonement.  This means, that little children, who are incapable of sin, even if they have transgressed, are completely covered.  Since this is the case, they are sinless and pure before the Lord.  As they are sinless and pure, they are ensured entry into the Celestial Kingdom.

Which leads us to the second question...

2.  IS this fair or just?  For those who do not believe in a pre-existence, this would seem very unfair and very unjust.  Afterall, they do not have the test that all the rest of those who live beyond the age of 8 must go through. 

For those who believe in a pre-existence...it is obvious the above thought is very shortsighted.  What is this life of less than 120 years compared to the eternity that came prior to it.  If one believes in the pre-existence as taught in the LDS church, one must also believe that we were capable of making choices and decisions in that life.  In fact, that belief is the very essence of why we came to this life and are here when a 1/3 of the host of heaven CHOSE otherwise. 

In that light, WE, each of us, chose what we would go through in this life and what we would learn, suffer, and achieve.  In fact, one way of viewing this life is that it is merely a time for us to choose whether we will follow the Lord or not, that all other choices were already foreseen and made by us previously.  In that light, those who chose to die before the age of 8, were most likely already tested in the life prior, in the pre-existence, in ways which we are not aware of and do not know.  We cannot fathom the tests they passed, or what they showed in order to be proven for their valiance.  What we do know, is that they will go to the Celestial Kingdom in the hereafter, and that the Lord is just.

A few problems I see with your answer. Transgression is willful disobedience to a known commandment/ law. Children who are not accountable are outside of the law and are thus not capable of transgressing the law.

The other problem is that children who die before eight are not those who already proved themselves and are predestined for celestial glory. If that were the case then it makes God evil by assigning these predestined children into circumstances that take away agency. In circumstances of abuse, neglect, molestation and murder it makes God knowingly send his elect to these homes to have these horrific acts performed on them in order for them to be assured exaltation. It thus requires, as part of Gids plans, for child molesters and murderers to inflict harm on his elect. That makes God evil. So, I dont believe that doctrine at all.

[JohnsonJones]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

A few problems I see with your answer. Transgression is willful disobedience to a known commandment/ law. Children who are not accountable are outside of the law and are thus not capable of transgressing the law.

The other problem is that children who die before eight are not those who already proved themselves and are predestined for celestial glory. If that were the case then it makes God evil by assigning these predestined children into circumstances that take away agency. In circumstances of abuse, neglect, molestation and murder it makes God knowingly send his elect to these homes to have these horrific acts performed on them in order for them to be assured exaltation. It thus requires, as part of Gids plans, for child molesters and murderers to inflict harm on his elect. That makes God evil. So, I dont believe that doctrine at all.

You do not have to be willfully disobedient to transgress a law.  In fact, people break laws in transgression all the time.  On the otherhand, to sin takes knowledge.

You are assigning your OWN MORAL code in the place of the Lord's.  You may not understand why things happen like they do, but it does NOT make the Lord evil.  Each may have a mission here, and perhaps their mission was chosen to try to aid those that hurt them in some way.  Just because you do not understand why the Lord allows bad things to happen, does not make the Lord evil. 

People have asked this for a LONG time, wondering why the Lord allows evil things to happen.  You have narrowed it down more specifically to children under the age of 8, but it's still the same question overall.  In addition, you are missing that we chose our missions and what we would do and be along with the Lord in the pre-existence.  It takes away NONE of that free agency. 

The Lord has a higher and greater perspective of this life and eternity, and the reasons for things happening that are evil in this life are always due to the agency of man.  However, the Lord knows how each part integrates and works with the other, and in many instances, allows evil to occur to bring to pass greater purposes that only he might know.

It's like Nephi, Laban and the sword.  Or, another parallel would be Egypt and the children of Israel.  Many of those children that died in Egypt were probably under the age of 8, but their deaths do not mean the Lord is evil, but that those who see him as such because of that act lack the perspective of eternity and how this interacts with the purposes of the Lord through eternity.

Children, under the age of 8 are sinless and yes, if they die before the age of 8 as per the prophets of the LDS church, are guaranteed celestial glory.  The eternities are far longer than this life, and the perspective of the Lord on what one has endured, the trials they have undergone, are FAR MORE JUST than anything man can decide or determine in whether one is worthy or not for Celestial glory.

Edited August 11, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

You do not have to be willfully disobedient to transgress a law.  In fact, people break laws in transgression all the time.  On the otherhand, to sin takes knowledge.

You are assigning your OWN MORAL code in the place of the Lord's.  You may not understand why things happen like they do, but it does NOT make the Lord evil.  Each may have a mission here, and perhaps their mission was chosen to try to aid those that hurt them in some way.  Just because you do not understand why the Lord allows bad things to happen, does not make the Lord evil. 

People have asked this for a LONG time, wondering why the Lord allows evil things to happen.  You have narrowed it down more specifically to children under the age of 8, but it's still the same question overall.  In addition, you are missing that we chose our missions and what we would do and be along with the Lord in the pre-existence.  It takes away NONE of that free agency. 

The Lord has a higher and greater perspective of this life and eternity, and the reasons for things happening that are evil in this life are always due to the agency of man.  However, the Lord knows how each part integrates and works with the other, and in many instances, allows evil to occur to bring to pass greater purposes that only he might know.

It's like Nephi, Laban and the sword.  Or, another parallel would be Egypt and the children of Israel.  Many of those children that died in Egypt were probably under the age of 8, but their deaths do not mean the Lord is evil, but that those who see him as such because of that act lack the perspective of eternity and how this interacts with the purposes of the Lord through eternity.

Children, under the age of 8 are sinless and yes, if they die before the age of 8 as per the prophets of the LDS church, are guaranteed celestial glory.  The eternities are far longer than this life, and the perspective of the Lord on what one has endured, the trials they have undergone, are FAR MORE JUST than anything man can decide or determine in whether one is worthy or not for Celestial glory.

Theres wsy too much conjecture involved with the pre existance and upon what conditions we came into mortality with. We cant speak with solid doctrine on that matter.

Transgression on the other matter is well established. A transgression requires one to knowingly break a law. This is the clearest definition of the word in scripture-

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (D&C 138:32)

There are two types of sinners spoken of here- 1. Those sinners who died in ignorance not knowing the truth. 2. Those sinners who died in transgression because they willfully rejected the truth. 

Transgression of law requires three things. 1. That the law exists. 2. You are accountable by age and have mental capacity to said law. 3.That you then knowingly reject or disobey that law. 

[clbent04]

On 8/5/2017 at 2:48 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

I think I should note that as a Mormon, I don't hold with the idea that a little child who does is automatically exalted--with everything that entails--without any further growth or development.  I just think that whatever growth does occur thereafter occurs through some means other than the conventional trials of a mortal experience; and that the child's allegiance to God has already been cemented to the point where the child isn't going to fall away through the rest of the training (s)he is to undergo.

Well said.  This is the only explanation that seems logical to me "the child's allegiance to God has already been cemented to the point where the child isn't going to fall away through the rest of the training (s)he is to undergo".  If not already cemented, it wouldn't make sense.

Edited August 11, 2017 by clbent04