Forgiveness, the concept

[pwrfrk]

I got a hold of a pamphlet the in the first part told of forgiveness and repentance, but no scriptural references.  Back in the day when I was in primary I remember being taught the very same principle about forgiveness and repentance- 1. You apologize. 2. You repent with a sincere effort to change, whatever it is you did wrong. 3. You make good on fixing the damage done, be it physical damage like a broken window or whatever, or non-physical such as retracting a falsely made allegation that hurt someone's reputation.  4. A sincere effort to not do it again.

Actually, I do not remember all of it, but this is pretty close.  Can someone please guide me on this?

[JohnsonJones]

Not really looking it up in detail right now, but here are some links on it.

Gospel Principles Repentence

 

LDS.org Repentence

[laronius]

@pwrfrk In your post you do a decent job of describing the mechanics of repentance but ultimately at the heart of repentance is change. Change in how we view things and a change in how we feel. We can go through all the steps you listed but if there isn't a change going on inside us there is actually very little hope of lasting change in our choices and that is what the Lord is looking for. Now in terms of forgiveness, we are commanded to forgive everyone whether they go through those steps or not. But exactly when does the Lord forgive us? That I think is the question. In many instances the things we repent of are likely to be repeated at some point. This is because the natural man is not so easy to overcome. So if the Lord in his omniscience knows we will repeat the sin and yet forgives us then a complete forsaking of a sin isn't the test of whether forgiveness is granted (obviously we must intend to forsake the sin but God knows whether we actually will). But I don't think there is a simple answer for all instances though having a broken heart and a contrite spirit is critical. In his great mercy and omniscience the Lord knows what we need to experience and learn to help bring about the needed changes and he grants forgiveness accordingly.

[JohnsonJones]

On when the Lord forgives us.  I'm a big believer of Grace and hence, as long as we do as he's told us, I think he forgives us instantly, as soon as we ask him for that forgiveness.  Unlike the pettiness of Men, I think the Lord is far more loving than most give him credit for.  He want's us to attain forgiveness and willing to give it to us, all we need to do is ask.

It is ourselves and others that are less likely to forgive ourselves, and what holds us back far more on the repentence and forgiveness scale than the Lord...In my opinion.

[The Folk Prophet]

27 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

On when the Lord forgives us.  I'm a big believer of Grace and hence, as long as we do as he's told us, I think he forgives us instantly, as soon as we ask him for that forgiveness.  Unlike the pettiness of Men, I think the Lord is far more loving than most give him credit for.  He want's us to attain forgiveness and willing to give it to us, all we need to do is ask.

It is ourselves and others that are less likely to forgive ourselves, and what holds us back far more on the repentence and forgiveness scale than the Lord...In my opinion.

Of course there is a fair amount, in some cases, to the bolded above. The Lord has been fairly clear that forgiveness is dependent on certain things. Specifically, in the scriptures, repentance, including confession, forsaking the sin, a true change of heart, and forgiving others. We know from the direction of our living prophets as well that certain more serious sins also require confession to one with the proper priesthood authority.

So I do not think you are wrong in what you say here (having included the bolded part), but it strikes me as, perhaps, not quite enough emphasis on the bolded part.

Yes, I think the Lord is far more loving than most give him credit for. I also think the Lord is far more strict and demanding than most give him credit for -- although this is quite plain in the scriptures, some seem to ignore the strict and demanding parts in favor of concepts like mercy and grace alone.

I also think the statement "all we need to do is ask" needs to be qualified somewhat. I accept that as true with the understanding that asking includes the actions as mentioned in my first paragraph in this response. If "all" we need to do excludes these things then it is an inaccurate statement.

Finally, the fact that some (even many) are too hard on themselves and unlikely to forgive themselves as easily as they should does not mean everyone, or even most, are that way. I would suspect that a great percentage of those in the world have just the opposite problem -- and, in fact I would say that forgiving oneself too easily and/or casting of repentance entirely in the name of God's mercy and grace is a much, much larger problem the world over than is the opposite.

[laronius]

That's kind of what I was implying @The Folk Prophet for the normal day to day sins I think the Lord is pretty frank in just forgiving us if we are sincere but when it comes to the more grievous sins I think the Lord wants to see us make good (to one degree or another) before he extends forgiveness. But this brings up another question. Just what does it mean for the Lord to forgive us? Does forgiveness entail a complete restoration of ALL blessings lost through the sin or can the Lord forgive us (in the sense that Christ has paid for it) and yet withhold those blessings until we have qualified for them? I would normally use the Spirit as a gauge in deciding when I'm forgiven. But does that mean a person under disciplinary action can never have peace until the action is concluded or can the Lord forgive the person and yet leave the disciplinary action in force to help reinforce the needed change?

[JohnsonJones]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Finally, the fact that some (even many) are too hard on themselves and unlikely to forgive themselves as easily as they should does not mean everyone, or even most, are that way. I would suspect that a great percentage of those in the world have just the opposite problem -- and, in fact I would say that forgiving oneself too easily and/or casting of repentance entirely in the name of God's mercy and grace is a much, much larger problem the world over than is the opposite.

I think that depends on what one considers as repentance and forgiveness.  I think there is a great percentage of the US today that I don't think are even forgiving themselves at all.  They don't even try to repent and don't see their sins as sinning or committing sin.  That isn't exactly doing what the Lord tells them or even forgiving oneself as they don't even recognize the fact that they are sinning and need to repent in the first place.  Some of them even go so far as to say that the Bible condones their actions instead of condemning it.  We see this occasionally among certain groups as they try to convince others that the Bible says the exact opposite of what it does.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, laronius said:

That's kind of what I was implying @The Folk Prophet for the normal day to day sins I think the Lord is pretty frank in just forgiving us if we are sincere but when it comes to the more grievous sins I think the Lord wants to see us make good (to one degree or another) before he extends forgiveness. But this brings up another question. Just what does it mean for the Lord to forgive us? Does forgiveness entail a complete restoration of ALL blessings lost through the sin or can the Lord forgive us (in the sense that Christ has paid for it) and yet withhold those blessings until we have qualified for them? I would normally use the Spirit as a gauge in deciding when I'm forgiven. But does that mean a person under disciplinary action can never have peace until the action is concluded or can the Lord forgive the person and yet leave the disciplinary action in force to help reinforce the needed change?

Good questions. I'm not sure of the answers.

[Traveler]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 4:46 AM, pwrfrk said:

I got a hold of a pamphlet the in the first part told of forgiveness and repentance, but no scriptural references.  Back in the day when I was in primary I remember being taught the very same principle about forgiveness and repentance- 1. You apologize. 2. You repent with a sincere effort to change, whatever it is you did wrong. 3. You make good on fixing the damage done, be it physical damage like a broken window or whatever, or non-physical such as retracting a falsely made allegation that hurt someone's reputation.  4. A sincere effort to not do it again.

Actually, I do not remember all of it, but this is pretty close.  Can someone please guide me on this?

 

I will attempt to give insight to your question with what I have learned.  Repentance is a journey that is a process of learning to become one with G-d.  It has already been mentioned that repentance is not a check list of things as much as changing one’s heart, core and sole.   I have suggested that one does not have to sin to become involved with and take advantage of repentance.  But I have discovered that this is an idea I cannot communicate – especially to someone that is agnostic and unwilling to consider such an idea.

In general I think being free of sin is more than a focus on not sinning anymore.  I believe it is also a love and appreciation of light, truth, holiness and becoming complete and whole.   I believe covenant to keep and love G-d is the central theme of repentance.  The idea is not so much to stop sinning as it is to become a saint and disciple of Christ – like the prodigal son – coming to one’s senses, willing to be a servant – dedicated to forgetting our will and determined to serve.

Essential to repentance is sorrow for sin but to become free of sin we must free ourselves not just of our sins we commit to injure others but the sins they commit that injure us.  The only way to be free of the sins of others is to forgive them – thus not only must we seek forgiveness of our sins but we must also seek the forgiveness of the sins of others as well – then and only then can we be free of sin.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have suggested that one does not have to sin to become involved with and take advantage of repentance.  But I have discovered that this is an idea I cannot communicate – especially to someone that is agnostic and unwilling to consider such an idea.

From Approaching Zion, Chapter 3: "Zeal Without Knowledge", by Hugh Nibley (emphasis mine).  This seems pretty close to your thought above.

Quote

What things then should we think about, and how? Here the Prophet is very helpful. In the first place, that question itself is what we should think about. We won’t get very far on our way until we have faced up to it. But as soon as we start seriously thinking about that, we find ourselves covered with confusion, overwhelmed by our feelings of guilt and inadequacy—in other words, repenting for our past delinquency. In this condition, we call upon the Lord for aid, and he hears us. We begin to know what the Prophet Joseph meant about the constant searching, steadily storing our minds with knowledge and information—the more we get of it, the better we are able to judge the proper priorities as we feel our way forward, as we become increasingly alert to the promptings of the Spirit which become ever more clear and more frequent, following the guidance of the Holy Ghost: and as we go forward, we learn to cope with the hostile world with which our way is sure to bring us into collision in time.

 

[Traveler]

@zil

Because we are fallen beings incapable of avoiding the wages of sin (death) we start to think that the purpose of repentance is to overcome the devastation of sin.  I do not want to dissuade the need of overcoming sin – but there is something more important.  My father taught me that changing one’s life requires a two-phase process.  The first phase is to quit doing something we have always done.  Often, we think this is the purpose of repentance – a road to stop committing sin.  But there is another process – that is to start doing something we have never done before.   His point is that we do not change until we not only stop doing something but we start doing something else.  Just stopping sin is not complete – we must start something.

Thus, repentance is not just a desire to stop something or remove it from our lives – Repentance is not complete until we start behaving like a saint.   Some may think that all that is necessary to become a saint is to stop sinning – but that is not the end game.   A saint has replaced a proclivity for sin in their lives with a desire to become “perfect”, “whole” or “complete”.  If we fail to replace an act of selfishness with an act of unselfishness – we will remain selfish even though we no longer do a certain act of selfishness – at our core there is still a selfish desire for something else.

In short repentance is incomplete until we become a saint in love with keeping the commandments.  As long as we struggle with righteousness to any degree - our repentance is not complete - we may overcome a particular sin but we are not whole, holy or complete - nor or we "one" with G-d.  The problem is that if we are honest (at least in my personal experience) any success in repentance to stop a sin will only uncover more struggles with sin.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 13, 2017 by Traveler