Defending the Gospel

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, for instance-

We will exist forever, we are eternal beings that have no end. Is that correct? Yes. It could thus be said that perhaps our existance will be infinite. Correct? Sure, philisophically speaking. Now, lets apply reality-

Suppose where you are at right now represents a point on a line extending endlessly forward. Will there ever come a time when you have reached any point in that endless line that is infinitely far away? No, never. It will always be quantifiably known even going on forever. There will never come a time when infinity is achieved.  Thus, in reality terms, infinity as a quantifiable reality isnt possible. A valued principle here is that anything quantifiable can only be part of a quantifiable reality. If we count or measure something it cant be part of an infinite thing. Space for example may hypothetically go on forever. But that could never be proven, it cannot be known. Why? Because, as soon as we start measuring, no distance will ever become an infinite distance from where we began measuring from. 

Do you not see the contradiction in your post here?

Either it exists or it does not.  You said we are eternal beings and have no end.  Prove it.  Oh, you just believe it.  How do you know?  Can you measure your eternal nature?  You can't? 

So what was it you were saying about the infinity of space?  We can't measure it so it doesn't exist.  If you can't quantify it, then it doesn't exist?  Then our eternal nature doesn't exist.

The problem you're having is that you believe math itself is a reality.  It isn't.  Mathematics is the very fundamental theory from which all other scientific theories derive.  There is no such thing as the number "1" (or 2 or 3 or ...).  You'll never find it anywhere.  It only exists as a concept.  We have symbols for "1" (be they Arabic, Hindu, Roman, pips on a die or card, or marks on a stick, or other numbering system) and we can count "1,2,3..."  We can even divide into quantifiable parts. 

But the number "1" doesn't exist in the universe.  Yet we derive all our theories on the very basis that "1" is a real concept that is useful in helping our understanding of the universe.  Just because the "number" of "infinity" is too great for us to count to, you deny it exists?  Well, I can believe that time is infinite without waiting around forever to find out.  That is a reality that may not in a scientific way be proven. But it appears to be a self-evident truth.

Now.  If you're still not convinced, prove to me where in the universe "zero" exists.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

Spoken like a true, bounded mortal.  If you want to look at infinity as a specific instance time (like 2017-11-15 19:51:00.000 UTC), place (like 51.5074° N, 0.1278° W), or quantity (like 32,767), yeah, sure fine, then mortals can't get there and don't know whether immortals can.  But the rest of us (as ought to have been obvious from my previous post and @Carborendum's) are thinking of it as a state, a descriptor, as something which exists, not which is mortally attainable.

PS: You seem to have forgotten that our existence has already been infinite.

PPS: I don't know why I bother; you really are a brick wall.  Your world and only your world exists and everyone else's way of looking at things is all wrong.  Do you engage in these conversations in hopes of convincing people they're wrong, or because you enjoy futility.  (I have no excuse, I should have learned better by now.)  (I don't say that to offend, and you're so stubborn about your own views that you ought not to care about mine, just shake your head at how stupid I am, but this is seriously what it's like talking to you.)

Okay, logic trumps all. If we have existed forever with a truly infinite past then it would have to be true that there is a point, at some distant time in the past that is truly infinitely far away. But thats false based on cause and effect. Counting the cause and effects backwards into our past we will never recall any point, however distant it may be, that becomes an infinite distance or infinite amount of time away from the present. Im not arguing about the reality of something being endless, I am arguing that the construct of infinity as part of a reality, as if its achievable is completely absurd.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

But thats false based on cause and effect.

You'll need to establish cause and effect as an immutable truth if that's your proof.

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do you not see the contradiction in your post here?

Either it exists or it does not.  You said we are eternal beings and have no end.  Prove it.  Oh, you just believe it.  How do you know?  Can you measure your eternal nature?  You can't? 

So what was it you were saying about the infinity of space?  We can't measure it so it doesn't exist.  If you can't quantify it, then it doesn't exist?  Then our eternal nature doesn't exist.

The problem you're having is that you believe math itself is a reality.  It isn't.  Mathematics is the very fundamental theory from which all other scientific theories derive.  There is no such thing as the number "1" (or 2 or 3 or ...).  You'll never find it anywhere.  It only exists as a concept.  We have symbols for "1" (be they Arabic, Hindu, Roman, pips on a die or card, or marks on a stick, or other numbering system) and we can count "1,2,3..."  We can even divide into quantifiable parts. 

But the number "1" doesn't exist in the universe.  Yet we derive all our theories on the very basis that "1" is a real concept that is useful in helping our understanding of the universe.  Just because the "number" of "infinity" is too great for us to count to, you deny it exists?  Well, I can believe that time is infinite without waiting around forever to find out.  That is a reality that may not in a scientific way be proven. But it appears to be a self-evident truth.

Now.  If you're still not convinced, prove to me where in the universe "zero" exists.

If we are to use the counting numbers as a symbol to count all the atoms in the universe, and supposing the universe is indeed endless,  will there ever come a time when it can "all" be counted? No, there isnt an "all" in sonething that never ends. The counting just goes on forever and all that is ever known, assigned by a unique symbol of number, never becomes infinite.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You'll need to establish cause and effect as an immutable truth if that's your proof.

There is no effect that isnt preceded first by a cause. Thats a proven fact.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

There is no effect that isnt preceded first by a cause. Thats a proven fact.

By definition that is true. What isn't established is that any given status must be an effect.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

By definition that is true. What isn't established is that any given status must be an effect.

Well, we could argue we dont exist but that would be absurd.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, we could argue we dont exist but that would be absurd.

You are arguing that infinity doesn't exist. That is also absurd. A time without time. A space without space. Paradoxes all.

[zil]

22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

prove to me where in the universe "zero" exists.

Nothing cannot exist.  For nothing to exist, everything would have to cease to exist.  Something is a subset of everything, and I am something, therefore everything exists, and if everything exists, then nothing cannot exist.

The same things are true of nowhere and never - they don't exist.  Everywhere and always exist, thus proving that nowhere and never do not exist.

Further, if nothing, nowhere, or never ever came into existence, we wouldn't know it, because we'd cease to exist in order to make room for them.

Oh, you asked about zero.  Nevermind.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If we are to use the counting numbers as a symbol to count all the atoms in the universe, and supposing the universe is indeed endless,  will there ever come a time when it can "all" be counted? No, there isnt an "all" in sonething that never ends. The counting just goes on forever and all that is ever known, assigned by a unique symbol of number, never becomes infinite.

You're not saying anything new.  And nothing you've said here contradicts the reality of infinity.  All you've done is said it doesn't exist because you can't count to it.  You totally misunderstand what infinity is.  Did you even comprehend the fact that there is no such thing as a number?  It is only a concept.  Some concepts can be realized with a tangible experience.  Others cannot.  But it is atheist scientists who will be the first to say that 

A) Infinity is a real concept.  And
B) If you can't prove God exists, then he doesn't exist.

You don't see how what you're saying is the mirror image of that?  The infinity of God exists.  But infinity isn't a real concept.

In math, infinity is a concept, not a number.  And as a concept, we can use it in theories to describe the universe around us.  What do you think "limits" are?  Not all things in mathematics and equations are pure numbers for counting and quantifying.  There are some things that are concepts that are both tangible and intangible.  In fact, when we get further from the theoretical math to the tangible physics and chemistry, more and more symbols represent concepts rather than numbers.  

For some reason, you can't get past the idea that infinity as a concept is just as real as "1" as a number.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You are arguing that infinity doesn't exist. That is also absurd. A time without time. A space without space. Paradoxes all.

That not it. Im arguing that infinity isnt quantifiable.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

That not it. Im arguing that infinity isnt quantifiable.

I haven't followed the thread. Is there someone who believes it is? Maybe I should read the thread through.

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You're not saying anything new.  And nothing you've said here contradicts the reality of infinity.  All you've done is said it doesn't exist because you can't count to it.  You totally misunderstand what infinity is.  Did you even comprehend the fact that there is no such thing as a number?  It is only a concept.  Some concepts can be realized with a tangible experience.  Others cannot.  But it is atheist scientists who will be the first to say that 

A) Infinity is a real concept.  And
B) If you can't prove God exists, then he doesn't exist.

You don't see how what you're saying is the mirror image of that?  The infinity of God exists.  But infinity isn't a real concept.

In math, infinity is a concept, not a number.  And as a concept, we can use it in theories to describe the universe around us.  What do you think "limits" are?  Not all things in mathematics and equations are pure numbers for counting and quantifying.  There are some things that are concepts that are both tangible and intangible.  In fact, when we get further from the theoretical math to the tangible physics and chemistry, more and more symbols represent concepts rather than numbers.  

For some reason, you can't get past the idea that infinity as a concept is just as real as "1" as a number.

You arent seeing my argument.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Equally interesting is that the moment one adds "infinity" into an equation, even a hypothetical one, they create the absolute absurdity as infinity doesnt exist. 

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

That not it. Im arguing that infinity isnt quantifiable.

Changing your story.

[zil]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You are arguing that infinity doesn't exist. That is also absurd. A time without time. A space without space. Paradoxes all.

 

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

That not it. Im arguing that infinity isnt quantifiable.

 

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Equally interesting is that the moment one adds "infinity" into an equation, even a hypothetical one, they create the absolute absurdity as infinity doesnt exist. 

 

 

[zil]

non-infinite repeat

Edited November 15, 2017 by zil

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

You arent seeing my argument.

When you say in one post that infinity doesn't exist and in a later post you say you're not saying that, you're right, I'm not seeing your point.

[zil]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I haven't followed the thread. Is there someone who believes it is? Maybe I should read the thread through.

No one claimed a mortal can quantify infinity.  I claimed we don't know whether an immortal can.  This infinity business started on page 5.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, zil said:

I claimed we don't know whether an immortal can. 

I suppose that depends on what one means by the word "know".

[zil]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

I suppose that depends on what one means by the word "know".

Clearly it's one k before now.

[person0]

What's that little bar for above the .33?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I haven't followed the thread. Is there someone who believes it is? Maybe I should read the thread through.

It was only because Rob hasn't apologized for mispeaking early on.  He apparently means that it isn't "quantifiable".  To which I say, "duh-uh, that's what infinity does."  But for some reason that means that putting it into a mathematical equation is "absurd."  I believe he lacks the math background to understand that equations aren't necessarily made up of all quantifiable values.

Interestingly, in certain calculations such as turbulence in channels or wind tunnels etc, it is acceptable to believe that certain ratios which are greater than 20:1 are considered infinite.  It is not exactly a mathematical truth.  But it is a good enough approximation that we can make fairly good predictions using the assumption of infinity.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I haven't followed the thread. Is there someone who believes it is? Maybe I should read the thread through.

Actually, I think I may have said that we don't know whether an immortal get reach infinity (where infinity would have to be defined as a point in time/space/quantity).  Yes, here's what I said:

46 minutes ago, zil said:

Spoken like a true, bounded mortal.  If you want to look at infinity as a specific instance time (like 2017-11-15 19:51:00.000 UTC), place (like 51.5074° N, 0.1278° W), or quantity (like 32,767), yeah, sure fine, then mortals can't get there and don't know whether immortals can.  But the rest of us (as ought to have been obvious from my previous post and @Carborendum's) are thinking of it as a state, a descriptor, as something which exists, not which is mortally attainable.

At this point, I feel like I'm caught in an infinite loop and don't know how to get out.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, zil said:

At this point, I feel like I'm caught in an infinite loop and don't know how to get out.

It's called the "ignore button". 

[zil]

2 minutes ago, person0 said:

What's that little bar for above the .33?

It's part of the name of the ranch I'm going to buy when I'm rich and famous: the "bar 33"  or maybe the "lazy bar 33".