Our Relationship with God

[Anddenex]

9 hours ago, clbent04 said:

God is the Father of our spirits, but he is not the Father of our being, nor does He seem to be the Father of our sentience.  The fact we existed prior to God means we were somehow brought into existence without Him, that we functioned as intelligences prior to His involvement, but how we functioned is unknown.  How much did we experience as intelligences?  

As for the Atonement, there is a relationship between nature and the spirit. As the laws of nature are rooted in truth, could there not be some overlap of spiritual and natural laws? Could the Atonement also satisfy a natural law that prevents imperfect beings from being in the presence of God?

God is the Father of both our Spirits and Intelligence. This is why we can become like him. I have never read any source that states that we "existed" prior to God. I have read multiple interpretations regarding scriptural reference (similar to the one you have given) that I personally don't find accurate -- according to the knowledge I have received through the Spirit.

Natural in comparison to "nature" are two different ideas/concepts. Celestial laws are natural laws that exist. We have been informed that the miracles we now see as miracles are Celestial laws we yet do not comprehend. The Atonement of Christ is a Celestial law. The Atonement of Christ doesn't have anything to do with nature or science. If we try to apply scientific principles to aspects that are not scientific, we will only confuse ourselves. Are there overlapping laws between spiritual and temporal/physical. Yes, for sure. The Atonement of Christ isn't one though. It is Celestial law that we do not have written, but through study, and through the spirit, we can understand.

[the Ogre]

On 12/27/2017 at 10:34 PM, clbent04 said:

1) Part of what I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is our relationship with God [& Jesus the Redeemer] . . . 2) The concept of having a [God &] Redeemer becomes more foreign when your not sure why it’s necessary to begin with. 

Hi. I took some liberties here and synthesized everything down to two parts: 1) What is my relationship to G-d and J-sus and 2) Why do we need a G-d AND a R-deemer anyway. I personally think the rest, while important, is essentially a series of red-herrings. Here is the problem, the only person qualified to answer these two questions for you is you and a bunch of meditation, prayer, and inspiration.  For me, I take Nephi's approach and go for the plain and simple. I hate some of the pilpul and pin-head dancing that sometimes comes with answering these two questions.

I'm a pretty skeptical person and love skepticism, but some of the problems with skepticism is over complicating the questions and the answers. My advise: take it easy and don't bake your head over it. Take it easy and know G-d loves you.

[wenglund]

12 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I think you’re getting at the reasoning of us needing to experience sorrow to appreciate joy, correct? 

 

Partly correct. Pain alone is vital to survival. Take, for example, children who have CIP (Congenital, Insensitivity to Pain). They are at serious risk of dying from diseases and injuries. To grasp just how vital pain is to life, watch what happens when a hospice patient has a morphine patch placed on their arm. 

Not only is it vital to survival, but it also plays a key role in evolution. (see HERE) See also, Why dow we have pain?

Quote

I don’t think physical pain is necessary to understand the spectrum of good and bad.

You evidently don't sufficiently comprehend the value of pain, not just in itself, but also as needful contrast for learning, for motivation, and for meaningfulness.

I could go on and on, but hopefully this will suffice. I also had hoped that the pain you experienced and re-experienced with your reoccurring struggle  would have taught you this.

Quote

Whose to say we didn’t have both good and bad experiences as intelligences?

Maybe we did. But, one thing is for sure, we didn't have good or bad physical experiences, sicknesses, suffering, pain, and death. Even the greatest intelligence among us in the pre-existence, Jehovah, needed to condescend and take on a physical body so he could better comprehend (see Hebrews 2:18, Hebrews 2:17–18; see alsoAlma )7:11–13

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

14 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I don’t think physical pain is necessary to understand the spectrum of good and bad.

To understand, in part, why pain is needed to comprehend joy, perhaps an art object lesson would help. Could you please tell me what is you see depicted in the picture below (inside the black borders.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[clbent04]

31 minutes ago, wenglund said:

You evidently don't sufficiently comprehend the value of pain, not just in itself, but also as needful contrast for learning, for motivation, and for meaningfulness.

There is emotional pain, and there is physical pain. All I’m saying is I don’t think physical pain is necessary to learn and have meaning. Emotional pain in itself helps us see everything you’re describing 

[clbent04]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

To understand, in part, why pain is needed to comprehend joy, perhaps an art object lesson would help. Could you please tell me what is you see depicted in the picture below (inside the black borders.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think we have all the color we need to fill up the blank canvas with emotional pain. I still don’t see how physical pain is necessary

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

There is emotional pain, and there is physical pain. All I’m saying is I don’t think physical pain is necessary to learn and have meaning. Emotional pain in itself helps us see everything you’re describing 

Even though I understand the distinction you are making, emotional pain is experienced physically, and may be treated physically (think anti-depressants), and is thus a physical pain. 

Regardless, what I posted above also applies to physical pain. In fact, several of the links were specific to physical pain. Both are great teachers and needed for survival. To get how, just apply analogously what you now understand about emotional pain to physical pain.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I think we have all the color we need to fill up the blank canvas with emotional pain. I still don’t see how physical pain is necessary

The canvas isn't blank. There is something actually depicted there. If you can't see it, can you figure out why?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[clbent04]

6 hours ago, zil said:

Everything we know about God says He does not use compulsion.

Good outline. I could agree with that reasoning

[clbent04]

9 minutes ago, wenglund said:

The canvas isn't blank. There is something actually depicted there. If you can't see it, can you figure out why?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ok I’ll bite. Why can’t I see it? 

[clbent04]

14 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Even though I understand the distinction you are making, emotional pain is experienced physically, and may be treated physically (think anti-depressants), and is thus a physical pain. 

Regardless, what I posted above also applies to physical pain. In fact, several of the links were specific to physical pain. Both are great teachers and needed for survival. To get how, just apply analogously what you now understand about emotional pain to physical pain.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

How does a third of the host of Heaven experience pain without bodies?  How do they experience bitterness and anger? 

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

How does a third of the host of Heaven experience pain without bodies?  How do they experience bitterness and anger? 

Why do you spend so much of your time and energy on negativity?

 

[wenglund]

13 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Ok I’ll bite. Why can’t I see it? 

You can't see it because I completely removed the contrast. Contrast is necessary to see and comprehend (such as with pain and joy, or in the case of physical pain as contrasted with pleasure). Here is the image before the contrast was removed:

Now that you see it, hopefully additional meaning will unfold.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[clbent04]

18 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Why do you spend so much of your time and energy on negativity?

I don’t think asking a question is negative 

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

How does a third of the host of Heaven experience pain without bodies?  How do they experience bitterness and anger? 

I am not doubting that pre-mortal spirits experience emotional pain of some sort. After all, the pre-mortal Christ experienced both joy and sorrow.

So, the issue isn't whether they experience emotional pain or not, but the nature and context in which they experience it, particularly when uncoupled from physical pain. A pre-mortal spirit lacks the contextual capacity to experience, as I have, watching, with both harrowing pathos and the deepest respect and gratitude, my aged father suffer immense back pain prior to passing away, but yet clinging courageously on to life for not wanting to be long removed from his earthly family, and then passing on nevertheless. It is only by going through such an experience that you understand what you really didn't understand before about the instructional power of physical and emotional pain.

Also, a pre-mortal spirit can't know what it is like to have teeth pulled with just local painkillers, nor learn the valuable lesson therefrom of proper and preventative care.

There are thousands of other examples I could give you, but hopefully this will suffice. If not, I can offer more.

[Note: Credit where credit is due. My point about contrast, particularly as it relates to pain and joy, is heavily informed by 2 Ne. 2 particularly vs 11 - 14] 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 1, 2018 by wenglund
Attribution

[Grunt]

12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I don’t think asking a question is negative 

I know you don't.  I suppose that answers my question.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

There is emotional pain, and there is physical pain. All I’m saying is I don’t think physical pain is necessary to learn and have meaning. Emotional pain in itself helps us see everything you’re describing 

So, do you understand why the Savior suffered both Body AND Spirit?

[clbent04]

18 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I know you don't.  I suppose that answers my question.

Good talk

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Good talk

It's not, really.  I just haven't figured out what you're trying to accomplish with this line of questioning.  Did you ever go back to church?  Did you quit your addiction?  Did you mend your relationship with your wife?  The answers to the questions you ask won't be found on the forum.  The bulk of your "questions" are doubts of faith.  Those answers are going to be found at church, with your Bishop, in prayer.

[clbent04]

I think @zil cleared this one up for me. Just as God has always given us the ability to choose, He would have given us a choice to remain as intelligences or become His spirit children (that’s assuming of course we had some level of cognitive ability at the time to make choices).

God clearly is the greater being among us, and it’s His righteous desire to increase our potential. He did not organize us to increase His glory, but for the righteous cause to make us greater than we could ever become ourselves.

When the time comes when we receive further revelation as to how we existed prior to God’s involvement, I think it will only increase our sense of appreciation towards the Lord.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I think @zil cleared this one up for me. Just as God has always given us the ability to choose, He would have given us a choice to remain as intelligences or become His spirit children (that’s assuming of course we had some level of cognitive ability at the time to make choices).

God clearly is the greater being among us, and it’s His righteous desire to increase our potential. He did not organize us to increase His glory, but for the righteous cause to make us greater than we could ever become ourselves.

When the time comes when we receive further revelation as to how we existed prior to God’s involvement, I think it will only increase our sense of appreciation towards the Lord.

Old Testament and Related Studies, Hugh Nibley:

Quote

Conspicuously lacking in the divine hierarchy is any sense of rank or class. Obedience and subordination in nowise jeopardize individual freedom and leadership and command, and in no way impose dictatorship as long as the whole concern of those above is to reach down in love to those below, and those below strive to rise in love to those above. (Moses 1:38-39.)  This sense of equality pervades everything here. Every spirit, says the Apocryphon of John, is a “monarchia,” a rule unto itself, and subject to no one, having been in the very beginning with God. There is thus that about it that can never be forced. (One of President Heber J. Grant’s favorite expressions was “Never force the human mind.”) Some people consider the Apocryphon of John one of the most important discoveries in the last ten years.

...for your pondering pleasure.

[Anddenex]

On 12/31/2017 at 3:41 PM, clbent04 said:

How does a third of the host of Heaven experience pain without bodies?  How do they experience bitterness and anger? 

We don't know what "pain" we experienced as spirits. We do know that we definitely experience "emotions" as spirits. Satan is evidence to the emotion of anger, jealousy, misery, and many more emotions. We knew opposites as spirits as we received instruction from Heavenly parents who taught us.

Abraham 3: 28, "And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him."

Moses 1: 19, "Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth"

2 Nephi 9: 9, "And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents."

We can see from scripture the triggers that enticed our spirits toward anger and other emotions, even love.

[clbent04]

On 12/31/2017 at 10:36 AM, Anddenex said:

God is the Father of both our Spirits and Intelligence. This is why we can become like him. I have never read any source that states that we "existed" prior to God. I have read multiple interpretations regarding scriptural reference (similar to the one you have given) that I personally don't find accurate -- according to the knowledge I have received through the Spirit.

Natural in comparison to "nature" are two different ideas/concepts. Celestial laws are natural laws that exist. We have been informed that the miracles we now see as miracles are Celestial laws we yet do not comprehend. The Atonement of Christ is a Celestial law. The Atonement of Christ doesn't have anything to do with nature or science. If we try to apply scientific principles to aspects that are not scientific, we will only confuse ourselves. Are there overlapping laws between spiritual and temporal/physical. Yes, for sure. The Atonement of Christ isn't one though. It is Celestial law that we do not have written, but through study, and through the spirit, we can understand.

How did we not exist prior to God? In the Book of Abraham, God didn’t organize us as non-existent beings, he organized us as “intelligences.” We were already classed as intelligences prior to His involvement. 

And what is the difference between natural laws and the laws of nature? Seem to be the same thing to me.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

And what is the difference between natural laws and the laws of nature? Seem to be the same thing to me.

Yes, similar wording.  But in common parlance, there is a difference.

"Natural Law" refers to the order that is more of the natural system of actions and consequences that the Lord has set up.  It refers to the things more eternal (although applied temporally).

"Laws of Nature" simply refers to more physical things.  Laws of physics is an example.

Is there overlap?  Yes.  But the concept and connotations are different.

[zil]

26 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

How did we not exist prior to God?

From what Joseph Smith taught, all of us (me, you, God, and everyone else) have always existed.  In order for us to have existed prior to God, God would have to have not existed at some point - thus making it so that those of us who have always existed, existed prior to that being who did not always exist.  But we know this isn't true - God has existed for exactly as long as the rest of us, specifically, always.

Now one might argue that our basest form existed prior to God becoming God, but that's not saying anything of import - it's safe to assume that God was always ahead of us in progression.

In short, we have no existence prior to God.  Further, whatever existence we had prior to God becoming God was less of an existence, since scripture teaches that He is the one who provided the means for us to progress.

All that said, the only two things we really know are:

1) Joseph Smith taught that intelligence is not and cannot be created (has always existed)

2) God saw fit to establish a way for the rest of us to progress

...everything else is deduction or assumption to fill in the gaps.  (Something we should keep at the front of our minds when considering these things.)