Are animals damned?

[Crash]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So much here to disect. But, on principle alone there are a lot of errors you make.

Technically speaking, according to official LDS doctrine, the Lord is with the terrestrial heirs- in their presence. So, you are in error there.

You are also in error according to LDS official doctrine in stating that the lower kingdoms arent saved. Telestial inhabitants are heirs of salvation.

You are also in error stating the  prophets dont state this is the telestial kingdom. Thats untrue. Jeffrey R. Holland stated in the last conference- "We are in the telestial kingdom" https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng So, at least an actual prophet agrees with me. Is he wrong too?

You are also in error stating all the lower kingdoms are hell. Thats clearly not LDS doctrine.

So, it appears, we both have beliefs that run contrary to official doctrine. Kind of puts things in perspective.

Please reread my post about being saved. 

First, please read D&C 76:112. It clearly says that where God and Christ reside, they (those not in the Celestial Kingdom) cannot, so you're wrong that Christ resides with them.

The only other thing I will address with you is the difference between nouns and pronouns. Nouns are persons, places or thing. Pronouns are both persons, places or things that have names. The word boy is a noun. The words country or planet are nouns. The word Earth or David are pronouns, as signified by having specific names and pronouns always have a capital letter at their beginning. 

In Elder Holland's talk, he said telestial, not Telestial. He referred to our current status of being in a fallen state in a mortal world (physical and imperfect). This is spoken of throughout the BofM and why Adam and Eve were cast out of their celestial paradise. They had become fallen, not able to dwell in God's presence (no unclean thing), so they became mortal in a telestial (physical and mortal) world. This is NOT the same thing as being in the Telestial (name of a place) kingdom in the afterlife. You have misunderstood what Elder Holland was saying.

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, Crash said:

First, please read D&C 76:112. It clearly says that where God and Christ reside, they (those not in the Celestial Kingdom) cannot, so you're wrong that Christ resides with them.

Hum...so what about this verse-

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

7 minutes ago, Crash said:

In Elder Holland's talk, he said telestial, not Telestial. He referred to our current status of being in a fallen state in a mortal world (physical and imperfect). This is spoken of throughout the BofM and why Adam and Eve were cast out of their celestial paradise. They had become fallen, not able to dwell in God's presence (no unclean thing), so they became mortal in a telestial (physical and mortal) world. This is NOT the same thing as being in the Telestial (name of a place) kingdom in the afterlife. You have misunderstood what Elder Holland was saying

So, in this verse then it must refer to our earth right now as its not capital "T"

"81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament."

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Crash said:

First, please read D&C 76:112. It clearly says that where God and Christ reside, they (those not in the Celestial Kingdom) cannot, so you're wrong that Christ resides with them.

I think vs 112 is technically about just the Telestial. But other verses clearly state that God and His Christ dwell in the Celestial (vs 62). But it does speak of "receiving of the presence of the Son" re: the Terrestrial (v77) and the ministration of the Holy Spirit re: the Telestial (v86). So it is accurate, I think, that those in the Terrestrial do not permanently "dwell" with Christ, but at some level it seems to imply they have access to His presence.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...so what about this verse-

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

So, in this verse then it must refer to our earth right now as its not capital "T"

"81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament."

Just out of curiosity, if we take Elder Holland's comments as literally factual and referencing the exact same meaning as D&C 76, then how do you explain vs 89?

"And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

(Not to mention the alleged story of Joseph Smith commenting that we would commit suicide to get there if we could see it).

[Crash]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...so what about this verse-

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

So, in this verse then it must refer to our earth right now as its not capital "T"

"81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament."

Please refer to the part of my post about Celestial hosts visiting the hosts of the other kingdoms. That doesn't mean that they reside in those other kingdoms.

And you're still misunderstanding what Elder Holland meant. Christ said that He is the vine and the door. Is He an actual vine or door? No. Methinks you take some things way too literally. 

But whatever. Peace out. I'm going to go discuss the definition of insanity with Albert Einstein. 

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Just out of curiosity, if we take Elder Holland's comments as literally factual and referencing the exact same meaning as D&C 76, then how do you explain vs 89?

"And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

(Not to mention the alleged story of Joseph Smith commenting that we would commit suicide to get there if we could see it).

First- Im not sure the church officially recognizes that whole committing suicide to get to the telestial kingdom quote. I think its second or third person.

The glory of the telestial would include all of its secrets, mysteries, in all dispensations and fulness of times.

[The Folk Prophet]

Elder Nelson (now President) has a quote where he explains:

"It is true that scriptures foretell the final days of the earth’s temporal existence as a telestial sphere. The earth will then be renewed and receive its paradisiacal, or terrestrial, glory. (See A of F 1:10.) Ultimately, the earth will become celestialized. (See Rev. 21:1; D&C 77:1; D&C 88:25–26.) But its last days must be preceded by its latter days!"  (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=eng)

Which helps underline @Crash's point. The earth has a temporal existence as "a" telestial sphere. That is not the same as being "the" telestial kingdom.

Ezra Taft Benson clarifies as well, "We must remember this world is a telestial environment." (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1981/04/great-things-required-of-their-fathers?lang=eng)

One again..."a" telestial enviroment...not "the" telestial kingdom.

What you, @Rob Osborn seem to not understand is that telestial, terrestrial, and celestial reference states as well as kingdoms, and the telestial state, as described in D&C 76 is varied beyond count. You also, as with other words, fail miserably to understand that words can be used in different ways at different times and don't literally mean the exact same thing with the exact same connotation every time they are used -- moreover many word are used representatively. It's called symbolism.

 

 

[Crash]

This looks like a job for Captain Literally!

https://youtu.be/9jh4Mpgbi4A

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

First- Im not sure the church officially recognizes that whole committing suicide to get to the telestial kingdom quote. I think its second or third person.

The glory of the telestial would include all of its secrets, mysteries, in all dispensations and fulness of times.

Agreed to the first point. You're trying to make the argument that God dwells in the telestial kingdom though by implying that we are in the telestial kingdom and God dwells here, including weird references to the fact that the earth will someday be celestialized...which is related to anything how?...but your arguments, as throughout, hold no water at all. If our existence on the earth is "the telestial kingdom" then it is certainly does not surpass all understanding, where no man knows it except to whom God has revealed it. (vs 90)

Edited March 24, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Elder Nelson (now President) has a quote where he explains:

"It is true that scriptures foretell the final days of the earth’s temporal existence as a telestial sphere. The earth will then be renewed and receive its paradisiacal, or terrestrial, glory. (See A of F 1:10.) Ultimately, the earth will become celestialized. (See Rev. 21:1; D&C 77:1; D&C 88:25–26.) But its last days must be preceded by its latter days!"  (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=eng)

Which helps underline @Crash's point. The earth has a temporal existence as "a" telestial sphere. That is not the same as being "the" telestial kingdom.

Ezra Taft Benson clarifies as well, "We must remember this world is a telestial environment." (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1981/04/great-things-required-of-their-fathers?lang=eng)

One again..."a" telestial enviroment...not "the" telestial kingdom.

What you, @Rob Osborn seem to not understand is that telestial, terrestrial, and celestial reference states as well as kingdoms, and the telestial state, as described in D&C 76 is varied beyond count. You also, as with other words, fail miserably to understand that words can be used in different ways at different times and don't literally mean the exact same thing with the exact same connotation every time they are used -- moreover many word are used representatively. It's called symbolism.

 

 

So, when Jeffrey R. Holland said we are in the telestial kingdom he didnt really mean it?

 When Elohim tells his servants to go down to man in the telestial kingdom he didnt really mean it?

Is the narrator lying in the endowment when he tells us that the world we now live in is "the Telestial kingdom"?

 

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Agreed to the first point. You're trying to make the argument that the God dwells in the telestial kingdom though by implying that we are in the telestial kingdom and God dwells here, including weird references to the fact that the earth will someday be celestialized...which is related to anything how?...but your arguments, as throughout, hold no water at all. If our existence on the earth is "the telestial kingdom" then it is certainly does not surpass all understanding, where no man knows it except to whom God has revealed it. (vs 90)

We dont know all its mysteries, secrets, etc. Literally, it truly surpasses our understanding.

[Rob Osborn]

Perhaps you could address my question now of why the sons of perdition are seen inhabiting the telestial world.

[Rob Osborn]

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

This is a word group that is directly associated with tjose who suffer the second death. Only the sons of perdition suffer the second death as it happens after resurrection and judgment-

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (D&C 63:17)

 

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
            37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; (D&C 76:36-37)

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, changed said:

Don't worry, I do share a room with a pedophile.  My family is filled with them - a few who are in jail right now... but my patriarchal blessing promises me that if I stay true to my covenants I can be sealed to all of them for eternity so...

Well, at least that part of your Utopia will be fulfilled. All that is left is to be one big happy family with mass murderers, rapists, and ruthless despots. This way, the only evil person left in heaven will be God--at least as you understand things. 

Maybe you could put in for the teaching assistant position since you know what good teaching can do with any student. Good luck with that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 24, 2018 by wenglund

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, when Jeffrey R. Holland said we are in the telestial kingdom he didnt really mean it?

 When Elohim tells his servants to go down to man in the telestial kingdom he didnt really mean it?

Is the narrator lying in the endowment when he tells us that the world we now live in is "the Telestial kingdom"?

 

I tire of repeating the obvious:

10 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You also, as with other words, fail miserably to understand that words can be used in different ways at different times and don't literally mean the exact same thing with the exact same connotation every time they are used -- moreover many word are used representatively. It's called symbolism.

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[wenglund]

On 3/23/2018 at 3:45 PM, changed said:

You clearly have no idea what a good teacher is.  

All kidding aside, you have something of a point. Christ is a master teacher with some profound instructional tools at his disposal. And he has been able to turn towards good some of the more ardent opponents to his way of thinking--most notably Saul and Alma and the sons of Helaman. 

Even still, things like pride , envy, greed, dogmatism, and pure evil can be highly resistant to, and perhaps even repealed by even the most amazing learning experiences. Consider the Scribes and Pharisees during Christ's mortal ministry. They were witness to astounding miracles (healing sick, casting out devils, raising the dead, etc.) and heard compelling, if not confounding arguments, and were in the presence of the Savior's moving spirit and love. Yet, instead of it softening their hearts and enlightening their minds, it agitated them to the point of their causing Jesus considerable suffering and eventual death--they were instrumental in affecting the great and last sacrifice.. The masterful instruction produced the opposite effect in some  unwilling pupils. Such is the paradox that is Christ. The ultimate peacemaker is also inadvertently the catalyst for much strife.

Even in cases where a change in attitude was brought about through divine instructions, it was not always lasting. I have in mind Laman and Lemual, who were shocked into seeming humble compliance by an angel, only to latter return to their old rebellious and sinful ways. The Isrealites and the Nephites underwent repeated cycles of humility and righteousness to pride and sin and defiance of God. Even today, many saints who have been touched deeply by God's illuminating and healing spirit, have turned from his gospel and reviled against him and his earthly kingdom.

Nevertheless, hard hearts and stiff necks and evil souls are no match for Christs transcendent skills as a teacher. He has the ability to turn any heart and mind, even more so than Satan.

It's just that there is a cost in using that power beyond a certain point--which costs includes the effective loss of agency, self-sufficiency, and progress, all of which are contrary to the will of Gad, as with Satan's plan..  

So, while you are correct in one respect about the capability of good teaching, you evidently fail to grasp the limits of good teaching, not just in terms of getting a permanent buy-in from all students, but also in terms of competing interests. God will not force anyone to godhood, whether through the soft coercion of irresistible instruction or brute force.  While every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, Godhood is something that must be a function, in large part, of personal will and desire--which, given the diversity of humanity, born of agency, is not on, and likely will never be on everyone's bucket list.

Said another way, while families have the desired potential of happily and lovingly being together in the eternities, some family members will chose not to be, and may astoundingly even prefer their own misery, and the misery of others than the fullness of joy available to them. God isn't so much sentencing people to outer darkness and "eternal" misery as people are willfully choosing those things--as mind-boggling as that may sound.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 25, 2018 by wenglund

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, wenglund said:

All kidding aside, you have something of a point. Christ is a master teacher with some profound instructional tools at his disposal. And he has been able to turn to good some of the more ardent opponents to his way of thinking...

First, I'd like to say that was spot on and even profound in the understanding of the nature of teaching, specifically, the Lord's way of teaching.

I had an observation about the examples you used.  There is the question of internal being and that of motivation.  The following are simply my observations and is full of assumptions.  But I believe there is something to this line of thinking.

Saul was actually motivated by God.  But he was so dogmatic in his belief that he simply would't be swayed to believe that any other way was the Lord's way.  He had an "unshakable" testimony in the Law of Moses being the Lord's word.  And it was.  But then his faith was shaken -- by the Lord, Himself.  So, he had to change because underneath it all, he was motivated by trying to follow the Lord.

Alma is not fully described prior to his conversion.  We don't really know much about what he did or did not know.  But I get the impression that he simply never felt the Spirit truly testify to him about the truthfulness of the gospel.  He simply didn't know. And in the midst of that, why did anything matter?  Why was anything sacred?  Why bother?  Just eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!  It wasn't that he was really AGAINST anything.  He just didn't see the point in going through all that effort in order to achieve something that he didn't even think existed.  The conversion came because of much prayer from his father who had sacrificed so much for the Lord.  Alma at least had that example before him.  He also at least had the teachings and doctrines before him.  He just didn't have a testimony.  And in his rebellious attitude, nothing else would wake him up.

The Pharisees did not really have faith in God.  They did not have faith in the Law of Moses.  They believed it was a tool to give themselves position.  Priestcraft had full sway there.  God was not their focus.  The Law was. Their position was their focus.  So, shaking from a vision or angry angel would not have changed anything any more than Laman and Lemuel.  That's not where their faith lay.

Pride is another way of saying that one values one's own desires, wants, passions, priorities, etc. above that of God or even above God himself.  So, even if God were to visit such a prideful person, it would not change them because their base motivation and faith lay elsewhere.  Perhaps the only true sacrifice that we can offer the Lord is our pride.  That is something that we generate all on our own. And we can give it up all on own.

Teaching may be thought of in many different aspects.  But it is always half of the equation.  When the student is ready, the teacher appears.

[The Folk Prophet]

The "good teacher" to save everyone concept has a fair amount of flaws. The idea here is that we are being tested to see if we will live by faith. The implication that if God loved us he would just teach us well and we wouldn't have to be tried otherwise kind of flies in the face of the whole concept of the plan of salvation. God KNEW that by our living with him in a state of knowledge and understanding we COULD NOT progress. We could not become like Him through the means of just "being taught". And He knew that faith through agency was the only legitimate means whereby we could become like Him.

@changed's philosophy implies that God should be able to do something that is impossible. It's naive. It's like implying that a child can learn how to walk without ever falling down. Falling is part of learning to walk. The very idea that if God loved us He'd never allow us to go through the things that will allow us to be able to become like Him if we so choose makes no sense. God loved us so He provided the means...not "a" means..."the" means...whereby we could become like Him. He knew that the process of learning to walk would involved falling down. But He knew that walking would lead to more joy than crawling.

Satan's proposed "I'll save everyone" was a lie. It was an appeal to the naive that everyone could learn to walk without ever falling down. Don't believe Satan's lies.

The pain of life is temporary. All we have to do is bear it a very, very short while (relative to the eternities) and if we hold on in faith we will be refined by the trials and progress to be as God Himself is. We either choose faith and trust in Him despite the veil, despite the fact that we cannot see what a master teacher He actually is, and how perfect His plan is, or we trust in our own mortal, naive, ignorant selves and prove ourselves unfaithful and unworthy of the greater heights.

I'm reminded of The Karate Kid. I know...dated...and yet timely with the new Kobra Kai series coming out.

Mr. Miyagi spends all this time have Danielson doing what seems to be a bunch of menial, boring, painful tasks (wax on/wax off, etc.) instead of "teaching" him karate. Daniel gets ticked off and shouts and screams. What a bunch of hooey! Wasting his time. Not teaching him at all! Arrggghh!! What Daniel doesn't see or realize, in his ignorance, is that his muscles are being trained, he's being taught patience, obedience, hard work, and other values that will all strengthen him. Miyagi was a master teacher after all.

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I tire of repeating the obvious:

 

Yeah, I know what symbolism is, even in the temple. The endowment teaches that the world room is a symbol for the world we now live in. Then we are taught that the world we now live in is the telestial kingdom. Its pretty straight forward. After that, and its repeated a lot, various tasks are carried out, messengers are sent down to man in the telestial world.

The reality is, whether we want to see it or not, our world we now live in is "the Telestial kingdom". We are also taught that in order to return to our Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom we must progress from the telestial kingdom we are now in to the next kingdom which is the terrestrial kingdom. From that kingdom we progress finally into the celestial kingdom. That is the most up to date official doctrine we have concerning the kingdoms and their place in the plan of salvation.

Now, you can say I am lying, or the temple doesnt really teach that but the facts remain, I am telling the literal truth.

Thus, when I go back and read section 76 from the D&C it makes more sense and I begin to see the process in which revelation was coming to Joseph Smith. It also helps explain why Joseph Smith sees sons of perdition amongst the saints in the telestial world- he was seeing our literal world and its inhabitants. It also explains why he sees those who died without law in the terrestrial world- during the millennium (the terrestrial kingdom) will be those, through the myriad of ages, who never had a chance, died without law and thus not judged by law. During that period they will become perfected through Christ as part of the one singular kingdom Christ presents to the Father spotless.

Understanding that helps to open up scriptures like this-

 

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;
            66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire. (D&C 101:65-66)

Only two places at that point- celestial kingdom or cast out with the devil and his angels. It also helps us to understand scriptures like this-

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
            42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
            
            43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. (D&C 76:41-43)

All of those Christ saves are saved through obedience to the gospel and cleansed through the atonement Christ performed. They are all spotless except for the sons of perdition. 

I could go on but try to understand these things first.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

[Crash]

[Guest]

What I got out of the thread between TFP and Rob.

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

7 minutes ago, Crash said:

Page 18.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

Sometimes I wonder if we even make progress in our learning on these boards. I love my religion and fellow saints but LDS are the most stubborn folks that are so trained in the seminary answer that we just cant figure out things for ourselves to know if they are right.

[Crash]

[The Folk Prophet]

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by The Folk Prophet