Bombing of General Conference - What if?

[person0]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We disagree.  I'm actually saying that they DON'T have the keys.

Based on my understanding of the keys and authority of the priesthood, I agree that you must be correct regarding keys.  And yet, I am certain that there is something we are both missing.  Why then would the Lord bother to reveal in D&C that the combined Q70's have the same authority as the Q12?

Based on what you are saying.  If all ordained Apostles were to die at once, eventually the Church would be in a state of apostasy for sure because the 70 could not call and ordain new Stake Presidents, or other priesthood officers.  Eventually when a Stake President died, all those who acted by the authority of his keys could no longer do so, and so on and so forth until every possessor of keys was dead.  Then eventually, every possessor of the priesthood would die with no authority to pass is on to another.  And since Christ could not return again to restore it again without contradicting Himself, then bam, apostasy!

I can't imagine that would be the result; even hypothetically.  I think there is more that we don't know about how the Q12 would be reconstituted, because otherwise, there is no value in us knowing that the combined Q70's have the same authority as the Q12, because in the moment they would have to take up the mantle to act in that role, we would all know we were doomed to apostasy anyway (according to what you have postulated).

[Guest MormonGator]

@zil is correct-the Lord won't let it happen in the first place. 

[NightSG]

6 hours ago, person0 said:

Also, Needle's question is if only all 70 in attendance at conference were dead, not all of them in existence.

Well, technically it says "destroyed."  So I guess there has to be an effort to make sure none of the 15 are only mostly dead.

And for those of you thinking Bednar must be the robot double, I'm sure they realized that would be way too obvious, so it's got to be somebody else.

Edited April 2, 2018 by NightSG

[Guest]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

Based on my understanding of the keys and authority of the priesthood, I agree that you must be correct regarding keys.  And yet, I am certain that there is something we are both missing.  Why then would the Lord bother to reveal in D&C that the combined Q70's have the same authority as the Q12?

Based on what you are saying.  If all ordained Apostles were to die at once, eventually the Church would be in a state of apostasy for sure because the 70 could not call and ordain new Stake Presidents, or other priesthood officers.  Eventually when a Stake President died, all those who acted by the authority of his keys could no longer do so, and so on and so forth until every possessor of keys was dead.  Then eventually, every possessor of the priesthood would die with no authority to pass is on to another.  And since Christ could not return again to restore it again without contradicting Himself, then bam, apostasy!

I can't imagine that would be the result; even hypothetically.  I think there is more that we don't know about how the Q12 would be reconstituted, because otherwise, there is no value in us knowing that the combined Q70's have the same authority as the Q12, because in the moment they would have to take up the mantle to act in that role, we would all know we were doomed to apostasy anyway (according to what you have postulated).

It's about sealing keys.  That has nothing to do with setting apart stake presidents.  Like I said, the 70s have the authority and keys to run the Church.  But all temple work would have to stop.  

The reason the "authority" being equal is even stated is to indicate that there is a backup plan.  And we'd probably expect that the next prophet would have to be called from the presidents of the 70.  But it would have to be by prophecy (5th article of faith).  So, heavenly messengers would be required.

[person0]

30 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Like I said, the 70s have the authority and keys to run the Church.

Interestingly, and unexpectedly, this is not correct.  You prompted me to do additional research and what I discovered is that the 70s do not have any keys at all.  Except for the 7 Presidents of the Seventy, who only have keys pertaining to presiding over the Quorums of Seventy.

Quote

Members of the Quorums of the Seventy do not hold priesthood keys as part of their callings as Seventies. But when they receive an assignment from the First Presidency or the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the keys they need to accomplish the task are delegated to them.
(Area Authority Seventies)

Quote

The Seventy do not receive additional priesthood keys, but with each assignment they receive from the First Presidency or the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, they are delegated authority to accomplish the assignment given.
(The Quorums of the Seventy)

Quote

Seventies act by assignment and by the delegation of authority from the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Area Presidents are assigned to administer areas under the authorization of the First Presidency and the Twelve. The Presidency of the Seventy are set apart and are given the keys to preside over the Quorums of Seventy.
. . .
All ward and stake auxiliary organizations operate under the direction of the bishop or stake president, who holds the keys to preside. Auxiliary presidents and their counselors do not receive keys. They receive delegated authority to function in their callings.
(Handbook 2.1.1)

So, somehow, they have the same authority as the Q12, but with 0 applicable priesthood keys.  Very interesting.

30 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The reason the "authority" being equal is even stated is to indicate that there is a backup plan.  And we'd probably expect that the next prophet would have to be called from the presidents of the 70.  But it would have to be by prophecy (5th article of faith).  So, heavenly messengers would be required.

Obviously we agree that this is how it would have to happen, however, as @zil wisely noted, it would be contradictory to the revealed word of the Lord for such a thing to take place again.
Once again, I am thinking there is something we don't know in all of this.

Edited April 2, 2018 by person0

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, person0 said:

Interestingly, and unexpectedly, this is not correct.  You prompted me to do additional research and what I discovered is that the 70s do not have any keys at all.  Except for the 7 Presidents of the Seventy, who only have keys pertaining to presiding over the Quorums of Seventy.

So, somehow, they have the same authority as the Q12, but with 0 priesthood keys.  Very interesting.

Do you see a problem here?

***

I think we're in agreement (as zil stated and I stated) that a heavenly visit will be required to continue for long.  That's not what I was arguing against. 

I was saying that in the interim, the Quorums of Seventy (with the 7 presidents) would be the presiding body.  But with lack of sealing keys, their operability will be severely limited.  But they do hold the keys to keep things running until sealing keys are restored.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Guest

[person0]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do you see a problem here?

No, I don't.  I adjusted it anyway to include the word 'applicable'.  The keys that the Q70 presidents hold would not be related to things such as calling Stake Presidents, etc.  Those keys rest with the apostles, hence nothing is changed by the fact that they have keys only to preside over their own quorum.

Quote

Later, he said, it was determined that the Seventy could reorganize stakes and call stake presidents, which brought “the whole doctrine of keys … into focus,” because stake presidents must have keys to preside.

“The stake president has to have keys, keys of the presidency of the stake. Well, if a member of the Twelve was there, he could easily give them. What would happen if it is a Seventy? Well, Seventies by delegation can do anything the Twelve tell them to do, and they can confer keys, which would be an extension of the keys of the Twelve.”
(Revelation and the Role of the Seventy)

[Guest]

Just now, person0 said:

No, I don't.  I adjusted it anyway to include the word 'applicable'.  The keys that the Q70 presidents hold would not be related to things such as calling Stake Presidents, etc.  Those keys rest with the apostles, hence nothing is changed by the fact that they have keys only to preside over their own quorum.

What do you think the seventies do?

[person0]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

What do you think the seventies do?

"anything the Twelve tell them to do"

[NightSG]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But have you ever considered why we have a solemn assembly each time a new Prophet is sustained?

Because a rave or kegger wouldn't go over well with the rest of the membership?

 

But really, I think the bigger issue would be some cataclysm with only one Apostle surviving; when he alone declares himself President and calls a whole new Q12 in addition to his counselors, how many people would get suspicious as to how Divinely inspired his decisions really are?

Edited April 2, 2018 by NightSG

[JohnsonJones]

My impression is that when Joseph was instructed in the organization of the church prior to his death, he held all the keys and power of the Priesthood.

This was also given and held by all the members of the Twelve Apostles. 

Joseph was the prophet and as such, could decide to make changes to doctrine and policy within the church without approval or even informing the Twelve Apostles.

When Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young realized (or had it revealed?) that Joseph had given the twelve equal power to his own.  Combined, they equaled all the authority and power of the prophet, and each of them individually were given the keys and power of that priesthood, even though only ONE can exercise the keys at any given time.

This allowed Brigham to be chosen as the leader of the church as he was also the head of the Twelve apostles at this time, and hence by default the leader of this quorum which had equal authority and power to the prophet Joseph.

Because of this, however, when doctrinal decisions are made, or even at times, revelations given or received (for example, we've had three recently in regards to Bishop interviews and abuse in the church, Elders and High Priests and their quorums and groups, and Home Teaching and Visiting Teaching) each must be voted on and agreed upon unanimously.  This was a delicate issue in the late 70s as well when Kimball received the revelation that Blacks were to receive the priesthood.  This had to also be agreed upon by unanimous decision by the twelve.  McKonkie described this event and we know that the vote among them was unanimous.  At other times, when prophets have had what they consider revelations, there have been things which have not been unanimous and such things become known more as opinion or non-doctrine (and famously, there were several items I believe between an apostle or two and Brigham Young even...of which issues now are not considered doctrine).

In this same light, it is that the FIRST quorum of the 70s also have equal power and authority to the quorum of the 12 apostles, but the 12 apostles are preeminent and thus are the ones who guide and lead the church (much like Joseph Smith was preeminent over the twelve apostles in his day).  ONLY the Twelve apostles at this time are given the power and authority to direct the church and only the head of their quorum (and not the president of the twelve, but the most senior apostle which is also the prophet) can receive revelation for the church as a whole.

If the twelve were to all die, the Seventies would lead the church and could assign stake presidents and other leadership below them.  However, in regards to all the keys that the twelve have, I do not know but if they LACK any of them, I would expect that the Lord would send revelation and power for those keys to be restored in the appropriate manner.

Currently, I believe at least a few General Authorities are always in a different building, and most times this includes at least one apostle (in case anything happens to the others).  They are at times found all in the same building at conference, but I think typically they try to have some way to preserve the line in case something DOES happen.

In the instance of a NUKE going off, and ALL the General Authorities are destroyed, I think Brigham Young (not positive if it was him or another who brought this up) said that this would not necessarily destroy the church.  As long as there was at least ONE pure and righteous Melchizedek Priesthood holder, the Lord would restore the keys and authority through that man.

In this light, in addition, IN THEORY...the entirety of the membership of the LDS church is ALSO the final fallback, as is the full Priesthood fellowship.  They also hold authority equal to the twelve apostles and the First quorum of the Seventies as long as they remain righteous.  Hence, why if you have one pure and righteous Melchizedek Priesthood holder, all can be restored through them.  They have the right authority at the point all others are destroyed, but lack the keys which are necessary.  Thus the Lord would restore these keys to someone who was chosen by the Lord and was righteous.

Thus, the chances of the church or the gospel ever being removed from the earth again before the Lord comes is VERY remote and probably not going to happen statistically speaking...at least at this point in our modern history.

Now, if for some reason all Melchizedek Priesthood Holders were destroyed, it actually does NOT destroy the gospel.  The gospel remains, though it may eventually become impossible to do the temple ordinances or higher ordinances thereof.  As laid out in the Scriptures, if no Melchizedek Priesthood Holders are available, it goes down the leadership to the Priests.  They might still even be able to baptize and perform the sacrament (it is questionable, this normally is done under the purvue of a Bishop who holds the keys for the ward, but the idea is that a Priest might be able to preside over a meeting if no other priesthood is present as indicated in the scriptures).

Having Priests in charge is very similar to the situation we find in some of the Bible where most of the ordinances done in the Old Testament were done by Priests who held the Aaronic Priesthood (though in LDS tradition, there was the High Priest who was probably a Melchizedek Priesthood Holder and hence the lineage of the prophets such as Samuel, as well as other leaders such as Lehi and his line of authority).

Thus, even if we were not able to perform all the ordinances, the gospel itself would continue as long as there were righteous individuals bearing the priesthood and willing to keep the gospel pure (which unfortunately did NOT happen the first time it happened when the original twelve died off and the church apostatized during the great apostasy). 

Now if ALL the priesthood in the church is dead, OR, is unworthy...then the LDS church has an even bigger issue on it's hands in that the entire membership of the church is probably near or close to extinction at that point.

Edited April 2, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

9 hours ago, NightSG said:

Because a rave or kegger wouldn't go over well with the rest of the membership?

Spot on!

9 hours ago, NightSG said:

But really, I think the bigger issue would be some cataclysm with only one Apostle surviving; when he alone declares himself President and calls a whole new Q12 in addition to his counselors, how many people would get suspicious as to how Divinely inspired his decisions really are?

I wouldn't have a problem with this at all.  This is precisely the standard procedure.  Why would this be suspicious at all?

[NightSG]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I wouldn't have a problem with this at all.  This is precisely the standard procedure.  Why would this be suspicious at all?

Considering the whole point of having 15 of them is to affirm the most important decisions by unanimous confirmation of the same revelation, making the 15 biggest Church decisions since the founding based entirely on one man's revelation would seem to defeat that purpose.  While reversing the order (calling 11 other Apostles first, whether all at once, or one at a time with each decision affirmed by all the previously called ones) would likely have the exact same result, (after all, he's going to be the senior Apostle, and the only one with any prior experience at that level) it would at least have the Presidency affirmed by the normal process.  (It would also provide the opportunity to change as needed; picture a scenario where Elder Ballard, pushing 90 already, is the sole survivor.  It's entirely possible the Lord would prefer the Church to have a younger President right away, rather than deal with the immediate issues only to call a President who may not make it another year.)

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

Considering the whole point of having 15 of them is to affirm the most important decisions by unanimous confirmation of the same revelation, making the 15 biggest Church decisions since the founding based entirely on one man's revelation would seem to defeat that purpose.  While reversing the order (calling 11 other Apostles first, whether all at once, or one at a time with each decision affirmed by all the previously called ones) would likely have the exact same result, (after all, he's going to be the senior Apostle, and the only one with any prior experience at that level) it would at least have the Presidency affirmed by the normal process.  (It would also provide the opportunity to change as needed; picture a scenario where Elder Ballard, pushing 90 already, is the sole survivor.  It's entirely possible the Lord would prefer the Church to have a younger President right away, rather than deal with the immediate issues only to call a President who may not make it another year.)

You can go on believing they are not inspired.  I'll go on believing they are.

[Vort]

I think @zil said it early on: It's a matter of keys. The Quorum of Seventy forms a quorum equal in authority to the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, but subservient to them. But though they have the same authority, the members of the Seventy lack the keys. If the keys were taken, they can't be restored by any action of men. It must be restored from heaven. And my understanding, as zil's, is that that will never happen until Christ returns and reigns personally upon the Earth.

[person0]

22 minutes ago, Vort said:

I think @zil said it early on: It's a matter of keys. The Quorum of Seventy forms a quorum equal in authority to the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, but subservient to them. But though they have the same authority, the members of the Seventy lack the keys. If the keys were taken, they can't be restored by any action of men. It must be restored from heaven. And my understanding, as zil's, is that that will never happen until Christ returns and reigns personally upon the Earth.

Yes!  But then, based on that, what use would it be that the 70 as a body have the authority to govern, unless perhaps Christ was coming back to reign ridiculously soon (like within 5 -10 years max kind of soon)?  Much longer than that and due to lack of keys, it seems to me that actual apostasy would occur by no fault of the members.

[Vort]

I guess I'm saying that I believe the hypothetical situation would not be divinely allowed to occur. God would make some provision to see to it that the keys remained.

[zil]

Am I the only one who thinks that maybe, rather than being for 21st century practicality, this provision (of equal authority among these three quorums) was (a) for the peace of mind of the saints, (b) checks and balances (which probably relates more to (a) than reality), and (c) because the Church was restored before airplanes and Skype when the possibility existed that the highest local authority might be a bunch of 70s (for example) who had to make a binding decision that couldn't wait weeks or months (or maybe just authoritatively correct the local members)?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Vort said:

I guess I'm saying that I believe the hypothetical situation would not be divinely allowed to occur. God would make some provision to see to it that the keys remained.

Well, we've received such a promise for the Aaronic Priesthood.  But I don't know of such a promise for the Melchizedek, let alone the office of apostle.

If you're just saying that as your personal impression, cool.  I'd have the same tendency.

[zil]

Final dispensation.  Restored for the last time.  Church not taken again from the Earth.  Any of these ringing any bells?  If the keys are gone, so is the authority of the Church.  Without authority, it's not really the Church - just a church.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, zil said:

Final dispensation.  Restored for the last time.  Church not taken again from the Earth.  Any of these ringing any bells?  If the keys are gone, so is the authority of the Church.  Without authority, it's not really the Church - just a church.

Yup.  And I could go along with that.  But I could also be obstinate and say there is some wiggle room there. 

...

I'll just go along with it.