Angels

[MaryJehanne]

Hello, guys!

I wanted to ask about something I've been thinking about for a little while... What are angels & demons and their abilities in the LDS religion?

If I've got this right, I know the LDS Church teaches that angels are humans who either haven't been born yet or have been born and died. They're basically the soul apart from the body. 

Does the LDS Church, then, believe demons are wicked souls? Are demons only people who have died or those who haven't been born as well? Or are there no such thing as demons in LDS theology? What abilities do the LDS believe angels and demons have and do they influence your everyday life? 

I also saw the LDS Church doesn't believe in guardian angels? Is that right?

Thanks so much & God bless!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

8 hours ago, MaryJehanne said:

Hello, guys!

Hello MaryJehanne!  

You are mostly correct.  We also believe that when Christ was resurrected, that many other righteous people were resurrected at that time.  Angels may also be resurrected beings.  We don't commonly use the term "demons", not that there is any reason not.  It's just not a term I have heard used a lot.  However, if we did, we would be referring to those who followed Satan in the pre-existence, and therefore will never have bodies.  

Your next question is too long for me to answer here. Seriously, I've been studying angels lately and I am amazed at all they can do.  Briefly they can comfort, guide, and influence, but they can also protect.  It was an angel that helped Daniel in the lions den.  And Elisha saw angels with flaming chariots ready to assist him in battle.  I'm starting to think a batter question is what can't they do?  Angels are amazing!  

We don't believe that a person has ONE specific guardian angel assigned to them in life, but we do believe in the ministering of angels.  I mean that each person is watched over by angels, yes.  Those angels are most likely family members, who as you said have already lived and died, or who have yet to be born.  For more on that:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/03/i-have-a-question/is-there-any-truth-to-the-idea-that-we-have-guardian-angels-who-watch-over-and-protect-us?lang=eng

LDS Scholar Donald W. Parry is a great resource on what we LDS believe about angels.  He has been studying them for 20 years.   He gave a talk about it.  Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGeOQ3naWOs

Or if you prefer the written version:
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/donald-w-parry_angels-chariots-and-the-lord-of-hosts/

He has also written a book called:  Angels: Agents of Light, Love and Power by Donald W. Parry  
https://www.amazon.com/Angels-Agents-Light-Love-Power-ebook/dp/B00DIJ3W1Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1530015010&sr=8-1&keywords=angels+agents+of+light%2C+love%2C+and+power+by+donald+w.+parry

Yes, I absolutely believe angels have an influence in my daily life!  

Now, I'm curious.  How different are these beliefs from what you believe.  You are Catholic, correct?  
 

Edited June 26, 2018 by LiterateParakeet

[MaryJehanne]

7 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Hello MaryJehanne!  

You are mostly correct.  We also believe that when Christ was resurrected, that many other righteous people were resurrected at that time.  Angels may also be resurrected beings.  We don't commonly use the term "demons", not that there is any reason not.  It's just not a term I have heard used a lot.  However, if we did, we would be referring to those who followed Satan in the pre-existence, and therefore will never have bodies.  

Your next question is too long for me to answer here. Seriously, I've been studying angels lately and I am amazed at all they can do.  Briefly they can comfort, guide, and influence, but they can also protect.  It was an angel that helped Daniel in the lions den.  And Elisha saw angels with flaming chariots ready to assist him in battle.  I'm starting to think a batter question is what can't they do?  Angels are amazing!  

We don't believe that a person has ONE specific guardian angel assigned to them in life, but we do believe in the ministering of angels.  I mean that each person is watched over by angels, yes.  Those angels are most likely family members, who as you said have already lived and died, or who have yet to be born.  For more on that:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/03/i-have-a-question/is-there-any-truth-to-the-idea-that-we-have-guardian-angels-who-watch-over-and-protect-us?lang=eng

LDS Scholar Donald W. Parry is a great resource on what we LDS believe about angels.  He has been studying them for 20 years.   He gave a talk about it.  Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGeOQ3naWOs

Or if you prefer the written version:
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/donald-w-parry_angels-chariots-and-the-lord-of-hosts/

He has also written a book called:  Angels: Agents of Light, Love and Power by Donald W. Parry  
https://www.amazon.com/Angels-Agents-Light-Love-Power-ebook/dp/B00DIJ3W1Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1530015010&sr=8-1&keywords=angels+agents+of+light%2C+love%2C+and+power+by+donald+w.+parry

Yes, I absolutely believe angels have an influence in my daily life!  

Now, I'm curious.  How different are these beliefs from what you believe.  You are Catholic, correct?  
 

Thank you, LiterateParakeet!  That does help. So, do you believe demons share similar powers as good angels, but for negative reasons? Are demons and angels able to interact with the physical world, such as being able to move things? Or can demons not really do anything in LDS theology?

Yes, I am Catholic! Very different, in some ways.

Angels for us are entirely different creatures. They are not gods, humans, or animals. They have a solely spiritual nature, but like us have a will and intellect. They are a higher nature than a human nature, possessing a much greater knowledge, understanding, and intelligence that is far beyond our own. 

They had their own test before human beings were created, where they accepted God or rejected Him (scholars believe the test may have had something to do with the Incarnate Christ). Angels, unlike us, have much higher understandings, so in one decision they were able to fall permenantly, where we fall all the time and still are able to repent and try again. All demons were angels who fell. They are still technically angels in that they have an angelic nature, not in that they’re the good angels.  

I don’t think guardian angels are actually set-in-stone for-sure doctrine, but there are writings that support it and it’s generally accepted. St. Padre Pio, for instance, was able to see and speak to his guardian angel, and angels of other people would come to him asking for prayers for their individuals. It’s also theorized that those with tremendous responsibility, such as the Pope or the President, might have an additional guardian angel. 

Angels have preternatural abilities, which are above the natural, but are below God’s creationary power. For instance, an angel can’t control your will, create a new planet from nothing, or offer humanity salvation of themselves. But angels are able to move objects, cause auditory/visual/seonsory/etc. illusions, touch a person (there are many saints who were physically abused by demons), force thoughts into your head, offer suggestions and ideas, and, I believe, see your imagination (different from intellectual thoughts which they can’t know unless, through God, you allow them). Some of the things I mentioned, as you can tell, good angels wouldn’t generally do.  But while some abilities can be used by demons, such as suggesting ideas, they can be used by good angels as well. My guardian angel, for instance, may suggest that I pray in a particular moment or even, I believe, avoid a certain situation. 

[Jane_Doe]

Big picture: LDS don't believe in non-human races.  Everyone is the same "species" (horrible sounding word, but I can't think of a better one).  What's different are different individuals tasks and state in progression.

Angel: the word "angel" means messenger.  An angel of God is someone on a message for God.  

Demon: is a messenger/servant of Satan.  

20 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

 So, do you believe demons share similar powers as good angels, but for negative reasons?

An angel is a messenger for God and has whatever power God deems to give them for the task.  A servant of Satan (aka a demon) has whatever power Satan gives them.  Obviously God way trumps Satan.  

20 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

Are demons and angels able to interact with the physical world, such as being able to move things?

If that's the task they have been given.  Nothing is beyond God's power, and Satan is also pretty powerful.  

20 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

Or can demons not really do anything in LDS theology?

For both angels and demons there are scriptural references, and some historical.  Nowadays it's not a huge topic of focus.

[Overwatch]

Hi! Hmm. Let me see.

23 hours ago, MaryJehanne said:

They're basically the soul apart from the body.

No. The spirit part of the body. Soul = Body + Spirit (United)

 

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by Overwatch

[bytebear]

From Jeopardy! this week, I learned that the Hebrew word for Angel actually means Messenger.  Which makes sense when you read the accounts and roles of angels in the Bible.

[bytebear]

Mormons have this concept of "Estates", these are kind of like testing grounds, and there are two estates mentioned in the scriptures.

The First Estate is our pre-mortal life where we prepared to come to Earth.  Satan rebelled and took a third of the host of heaven with him.  They are those who did not keep their first estate, and are demons.  They will never be born on Earth, never receive a body, and never be resurrected.  They are forever spirits, damned forever.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/man-antemortal-existence-of?lang=eng

The Second Estate is what we are experiencing now, what we call mortality.  And if we keep our second estate, we will become one with God and in Catholic terms, go to heaven.  But even those who do not keep their second estate will be reborn into a new resurrected body and receive some level of spiritual glory.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/mortal-mortality?lang=eng

As to angels, the LDS Bible Dictionary does a far better explanation than I could give.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/angels?lang=eng&letter=A

 

[Overwatch]

Okay. Tried to update a bit of what I was typing earlier. I went visiting people with the missionaries and had a chance after to sit back down and review my post. 

[MaryJehanne]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Big picture: LDS don't believe in non-human races.  Everyone is the same "species" (horrible sounding word, but I can't think of a better one).  What's different are different individuals tasks and state in progression.

Angel: the word "angel" means messenger.  An angel of God is someone on a message for God.  

Demon: is a messenger/servant of Satan.  

An angel is a messenger for God and has whatever power God deems to give them for the task.  A servant of Satan (aka a demon) has whatever power Satan gives them.  Obviously God way trumps Satan.  

If that's the task they have been given.  Nothing is beyond God's power, and Satan is also pretty powerful.  

For both angels and demons there are scriptural references, and some historical.  Nowadays it's not a huge topic of focus.

Hi, Jane_Doe! 

Just to clarify what I mentioned earlier, Catholics don't just believe Angels are different races (as in a species, which has to do with the natural), but different natures. You may have totally gotten that, I just wanted to make sure.

Yes, I think I've heard of the messenger meaning! That's just the name we call angels, but I wanted to ask about the different natures and how you believe that works, because, like our ideas of God, I know that's a point where we use the same vocab for very different "definitions".

Hm... that's interesting. For us, I don't believe Satan has the ability to grant other demons powers. God is infinitely more powerful than Satan for us.

 

@Overwatch Thank you so much for adding to the conversation!

3 hours ago, Overwatch said:

Hi! Hmm. Let me see.

No. The spirit part of the body. Soul = Body + Spirit (United)

 

Demons and devils are the same thing. Unclean spirits, wicked angels who have fallen ex: 1/3 of the host of heaven who were banished from our holy home for rebelling against God's plan. Whether they knew they extent of their rebellion or not, they are still perdition for one reason; they REFUSE TO REPENT. Also they actively fight against the work of God. People that have been born can become devils. They desire and constantly do evil, they actively fight against God. People don't realize how much power they have. The majority of their doings are based ON THEIR OWN DESIRES and also the spirit they list to obey. Don't discount the power you have but also learn to trust in the power of The Lord. 

Wait, really? I didn't know that. So there's the body, what we call the soul you call the spirit, and what we would call the human person (body and soul united), you actually call the soul? So right now you'd say that you're a soul?

Oh, okay! Thanks for explaining that!

 

And for the rest of the post, thank you so much for taking the time to write that. I think there may be a division forming, though, in our different religious outlooks? What you're beginning on there is much, much, very much darker than I'd want to get into. I'm sorry if that comes off as a bit of an overreaction, but from what I've read, I think our outlook on demons may be much more insidious and dangerous than what the LDS belief is. I stopped reading part of the way through as my anxiety level started to spike (I do have some trouble with anxiety as well, so for my own mental health I really shouldn't risk provoking it  ), especially since Catholics believe that demons pretend to be things they are not so as to fool people, such as, when people try to contact the dead, masquerading as a deceased person. Again, I really appreciate your help, but for my beliefs and personal reasons, I really can't continue down that vein of conversation without causing some extreme distress! Boy, my heart right now...  May God watch over you, keep you, and bring you closer to Him. St. Michael, defend us! Mother of God, pray for us! St. Joseph, Terror of Demons, pray for us! My Lord, My God, protect us.

 

3 hours ago, bytebear said:

Mormons have this concept of "Estates", these are kind of like testing grounds, and there are two estates mentioned in the scriptures.

The First Estate is our pre-mortal life where we prepared to come to Earth.  Satan rebelled and took a third of the host of heaven with him.  They are those who did not keep their first estate, and are demons.  They will never be born on Earth, never receive a body, and never be resurrected.  They are forever spirits, damned forever.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/man-antemortal-existence-of?lang=eng

The Second Estate is what we are experiencing now, what we call mortality.  And if we keep our second estate, we will become one with God and in Catholic terms, go to heaven.  But even those who do not keep their second estate will be reborn into a new resurrected body and receive some level of spiritual glory.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/mortal-mortality?lang=eng

As to angels, the LDS Bible Dictionary does a far better explanation than I could give.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/angels?lang=eng&letter=A

 

Ohhh... That first part is ringing a bell now. I remember hearing that!

What does the phrase "keep our estate" mean? Does that mean to, in very simple terms, "do a really good job during this period"?

[Overwatch]

53 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

Oh, okay! Thanks for explaining that!

no problem  

53 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

 What you're beginning on there is much, much, very much darker than I'd want to get into. I'm sorry if that comes off as a bit of an overreaction, but from what I've read, I think our outlook on demons may be much more insidious and dangerous than what the LDS belief is. I stopped reading part of the way through as my anxiety level started to spike (I do have some trouble with anxiety as well, so for my own mental health I really shouldn't risk provoking it  )

Totally understand but you are in luck. I didn't cover it all as it is quite large. Also remember to breathe if you ever decide to read about stuff that creeps you out. Above all know that God will protect you.

53 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

especially since Catholics believe that demons pretend to be things they are not so as to fool people, such as, when people try to contact the dead, masquerading as a deceased person

You are actually correct about this. I didn't mention this. Yes, that is why shouldn't seek out spirit summoners. They have no authority nor can they demand the deceased to appear. Any spirits that do appear are in fact devils pretending to be your loved one. You will know if your family is allowed by God to visit. It will be peaceful and they will let you know they were sent by God THEMSELVES. They will also encourage you to ask God that He indeed did send them to you.

As far as feeling anxious goes let me see if I can find something...

 

I love the piano piece

Edited June 27, 2018 by Overwatch

[Overwatch]

On 6/26/2018 at 10:13 PM, MaryJehanne said:

 May God watch over you, keep you, and bring you closer to Him. St. Michael, defend us! Mother of God, pray for us! St. Joseph, Terror of Demons, pray for us! My Lord, My God, protect us

oh and thank you! That is very nice of you  

*Also I will go back and hide my main post. To calm your heart. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Overwatch

[SpiritDragon]

@MaryJehanne I think you've been given some great ideas from the others here already. I wondered if it might help to give some more background and share my perspective for what it's worth. As has already been stated, we believe that we are spirit children of heavenly parents. During our premortal existence there was a war in Heaven in which Lucifer sought for the power and glory of god presenting an alternate plan to our Heavenly Father's plan which involved Jesus Christ as our Saviour. The outcome of this war is that Lucifer was cast out of heaven and became Satan, the devil. However, Lucifer was persuasive and drew away a third part of the hosts of heaven with him. These spirits are miserable like Satan and serve him. I've never heard them referred to as demons in LDS theology, but if the idea of fallen angels would define demons, they would be the best fit. I'd also add to this that there are some who even in mortality are given great light and knowledge and reject it choosing to serve Satan instead of God, intentionally - because they love Satan more. These are referred to as sons of Perdition and would likely fit into the same category of demons if we want to work with that term.

I suspect that they would have similar abilities to what you have mentioned. They may try to appear as an angel of light or possibly even try to pass themselves off as god himself, although I've only ever seen scriptural accounts of Satan himself doing that. We don't generally spend much time learning about the powers of evil as even talking about it may strengthen it's power - as it seems to have done by causing you fear and anxiety. So I won't delve into the powers of demons other than to say that they work through deception and can be detected.

Joseph Smith taught that to detect an evil spirit one could ask to shake hands and that it will try to deceive by offering a hand which will not be tangible. A righteous spirit will explain that it has no body and can't shake hands while a resurrected being can shake hands like a mortal and will have a tangible body. 

[bytebear]

2 hours ago, MaryJehanne said:

What does the phrase "keep our estate" mean? Does that mean to, in very simple terms, "do a really good job during this period"?

It's more like God gives you a choice, and you choose to follow God's plan or not.  In our first estate, we chose to follow God's plan and come to Earth to be tested. Satan rebelled, didn't want to be tested and thought everyone should just be saved without trials.

The second estate is kept through covenants.  We covenant with God (via baptism) and live our lives in a way that we keep that covenant, and again choose God.  Those who reject God will not keep their second estate.

Edited June 27, 2018 by bytebear

[Jane_Doe]

12 hours ago, MaryJehanne said:

Hi, Jane_Doe! 

Just to clarify what I mentioned earlier, Catholics don't just believe Angels are different races (as in a species, which has to do with the natural), but different natures. You may have totally gotten that, I just wanted to make sure.

Yes, I think I've heard of the messenger meaning! That's just the name we call angels, but I wanted to ask about the different natures and how you believe that works, because, like our ideas of God, I know that's a point where we use the same vocab for very different "definitions".

I know.  LDS don't talk about "natures" of anything (it's just not an LDS concept) so it makes this a clunky conversation.

12 hours ago, MaryJehanne said:

God is infinitely more powerful than Satan for us.

Totally!  100% agreement there. 

12 hours ago, MaryJehanne said:

What does the phrase "keep our estate" mean? Does that mean to, in very simple terms, "do a really good job during this period"?

That's actually a really good question... it's one of those phrases that's hard to define.  It's used on Jude 1:6.   Someone who didn't keep their estate is someone who didn't keep their dominion or responsibilities or rank or birthright ---- someone who discarded those.  In other words, someone who rebelled against their father.  In a religious context it's someone who rebelled against their Father in Heaven.  Someone who did  keep their estate is someone who followed the Father's wishes.

[SpiritDragon]

@MaryJehanne In the account of Jesus casting the unclean spirits identified as legion out into the swine, from your perspective are these demons?

[MaryJehanne]

@Overwatch Thank you.  I have a bottle of holy water in my room, and that melts away some of the disquiet!

 

On June 27, 2018 at 12:31 AM, SpiritDragon said:

@MaryJehanne I think you've been given some great ideas from the others here already. I wondered if it might help to give some more background and share my perspective for what it's worth. As has already been stated, we believe that we are spirit children of heavenly parents. During our premortal existence there was a war in Heaven in which Lucifer sought for the power and glory of god presenting an alternate plan to our Heavenly Father's plan which involved Jesus Christ as our Saviour. The outcome of this war is that Lucifer was cast out of heaven and became Satan, the devil. However, Lucifer was persuasive and drew away a third part of the hosts of heaven with him. These spirits are miserable like Satan and serve him. I've never heard them referred to as demons in LDS theology, but if the idea of fallen angels would define demons, they would be the best fit. I'd also add to this that there are some who even in mortality are given great light and knowledge and reject it choosing to serve Satan instead of God, intentionally - because they love Satan more. These are referred to as sons of Perdition and would likely fit into the same category of demons if we want to work with that term.

I suspect that they would have similar abilities to what you have mentioned. They may try to appear as an angel of light or possibly even try to pass themselves off as god himself, although I've only ever seen scriptural accounts of Satan himself doing that. We don't generally spend much time learning about the powers of evil as even talking about it may strengthen it's power - as it seems to have done by causing you fear and anxiety. So I won't delve into the powers of demons other than to say that they work through deception and can be detected.

Joseph Smith taught that to detect an evil spirit one could ask to shake hands and that it will try to deceive by offering a hand which will not be tangible. A righteous spirit will explain that it has no body and can't shake hands while a resurrected being can shake hands like a mortal and will have a tangible body. 

Hello, @SpiritDragon! Thank you. I have heard of the idea of the premortal existence, but it's interesting that the term demon isn't often used... 

Yes, it's a good idea not to focus too much on evil, not the least of reasons is because some people develop an unhealthy fascination. I'd add that maybe it doesn't really strengthen objective demonic power, though, but only how much you're allowing that power to overcome you. I heard a Catholic speaker once commenting on this mentality (of not focusing on Satan and how looking at him draws your gaze from God), citing a moment from Gibson's The Passion of the Christ, where Satan catches Mary's eye. Instead of continuing to look at him, she turned back to Christ, giving him no credence at all.

I think that last bit actually says a lot about the LDS perception of angels! I understand the logic, though in Catholicism, that wouldn't work, because the demon could create at the very least the illusion of pressure, weight, and shape of a hand. For us, the tests would need to be a little more conceptual, maybe? For instance, when St. Margaret Mary was receiving visions from Christ, a priest she told, who was to be her spiritual director, was skeptical. He told her that if Christ appeared to her another time, to ask Him was the last mortal sin he confessed was. If he could tell her that, he'd agree to be her spiritual director. St. Margaret Mary asked Jesus, and His reply was, "I don't remember." (This is the appropriate response, because of God's mercy. As He told Mother Angelica, all a person's sins are like a drop of water, and the ocean His mercy; if you were to throw that drop into the ocean, would you ever find it?)

 

@bytebear Ah, I see! Thank you!

 

On June 27, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Jane_Doe said:

I know.  LDS don't talk about "natures" of anything (it's just not an LDS concept) so it makes this a clunky conversation.

Totally!  100% agreement there. 

That's actually a really good question... it's one of those phrases that's hard to define.  It's used on Jude 1:6.   Someone who didn't keep their estate is someone who didn't keep their dominion or responsibilities or rank or birthright ---- someone who discarded those.  In other words, someone who rebelled against their father.  In a religious context it's someone who rebelled against their Father in Heaven.  Someone who did  keep their estate is someone who followed the Father's wishes.

Yes, that's something, I've noticed, that stands out in the LDS religion!

 Yay!

Ah... Thank you!

 

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

@MaryJehanne In the account of Jesus casting the unclean spirits identified as legion out into the swine, from your perspective are these demons?

"And he asked him: What is thy name? And he saith to him: My name is Legion, for we are many." Yes, those are demons! What is the LDS belief?

 

[Overwatch]

30 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

"And he asked him: What is thy name? And he saith to him: My name is Legion, for we are many." Yes, those are demons! What is the LDS belief?

I actually answered this in my first reply (That I erased)  Let me see if I can make it less scary. Demons are fallen Angels. They are just like us but don't have nor ever will get their own physical bodies. They are literal sons and daughters of God who rebelled against God and lost the privileges of being mortal

Edited June 29, 2018 by Overwatch

[SpiritDragon]

10 hours ago, MaryJehanne said:

"And he asked him: What is thy name? And he saith to him: My name is Legion, for we are many." Yes, those are demons! What is the LDS belief?

I've only ever heard of them referred to as unclean spirits or spirits that follow Satan. They recognized Christ from the war in Heaven and were subdued under his authority. Your answer has helped to strengthen the case that what I would refer to as an evil spirit would likely constitute a demon for you.

[MaryJehanne]

21 hours ago, Overwatch said:

I actually answered this in my first reply (That I erased)  Let me see if I can make it less scary. Demons are fallen Angels. They are just like us but don't have nor ever will get their own physical bodies. They are literal sons and daughters of God who rebelled against God and lost the privileges of being mortal

Hey, Overwatch! I'm so sorry I made you repeat yourself. I was thinking of demons = fallen angels, so I thought SpiritDragon was talking about entirely different entities (creatures)! That's why I asked.  

To try to better explain myself, I don't mind talking around the subject of demons if it's fruitful, but delving in too deep is opening up a person to spiritual problems, which is what I was really afraid of. What you were describing disturbed me so badly, not because you mentioned demons, but because you mentioned extraordinary (as opposed to ordinary) demonic influence in your life, and, as it seems from my Catholic point of view, treacherous and manipulative influence at that. There are probably worse things, as a Catholic, I believe demons can do, from demonic Obsession to Possession. Coupled with the fact I think they're far more sinister, as can be told from your belief that they still have a choice to repent, and mine that they know full well what they've chosen, far better than we could, and have completely committed to it forever. Please be careful, please be safe, and please use the St. Michael prayer if you can. I don't think there's anything you'd object to saying in it. God bless!

 

11 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

I've only ever heard of them referred to as unclean spirits or spirits that follow Satan. They recognized Christ from the war in Heaven and were subdued under his authority. Your answer has helped to strengthen the case that what I would refer to as an evil spirit would likely constitute a demon for you.

Hm... Okay, I think I see! To us, the "unclean spirit" is talking about a spirit creature (angel) who is not pure (is evil). It's just another way to say demon! Demons can't help but fall under Christ's authority, since He brought them into being and holds them in existence. 

That is probably true! All evil supernatural activity would be demonic (human souls in Hell have no ability to come back after death). There is no preexistence for us (though God has known us throughout Eternity), and human life (body and soul) begins at conception. People can have no actual sin (sins they've committed) until they reach the age of reason, around 7 years old. So there are no evil people without a body, either dead or not yet born, to cause distress.

 

@Jane_Doe If you don't mind me going back to an older point, something occurred to me last night after I'd replied... If humans, angels, and gods are all of the same nature in LDS religion, then what are animals? Are they of the same nature too?

[Jane_Doe]

20 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

@Jane_Doe If you don't mind me going back to an older point, something occurred to me last night after I'd replied... If humans, angels, and gods are all of the same nature in LDS religion, then what are animals? Are they of the same nature too?

Again LDS don't really talk about "nature".  But a human and a dog are different species (again, that's a horrible word).  A dog is a dog.  I am a human and have a Father in Heaven.  Same with all humans and human spirits (even if they never received a body due to rebellion).  

[Overwatch]

57 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

There are probably worse things, as a Catholic, I believe demons can do, from demonic Obsession to Possession. Coupled with the fact I think they're far more sinister, as can be told from your belief that they still have a choice to repent, and mine that they know full well what they've chosen, far better than we could, and have completely committed to it forever.

hm. I happen to have a history of meeting with demons [NOT] by choice, starting from very young. I have been treated very badly not only by legion but by people who kept their first estate. I can tell that you SOME mortals are capable of making devils shake with some of the sins they commit. I can almost hear them say "They actually did it" SIN is SIN. Do you suppose that I am not aware of the evil of the fallen? Do you suppose that I have not thought deep of sins committed by the living? For example Cain not only did he commit the first murder but do you not suppose that it was determined, at first, Christ would be born through the seed of Abel? So not only becoming "Master" Mahan but an attempt to stop the progress of the plan of salvation. Do you suppose that God would speak to Cain if he was not at some point righteous? Legion, Demons, Perdition.... Do you not suppose that my heart does not ache for the loss of my brethren, for the pain of my FATHER (GOD) in losing 1/3 of his CHILDREN. I am not sure you understand the deep loss that was incurred that day and the shameful loss that continues still. 

Demons CANNOT force you to do evil. Legion have NO power when you stand in holy places and when you call upon the Lord, WHEN YOU KEEP YOUR COVENANTS. We are agents unto ourselves. 

We are a FAMILY. When Mother Earth is burned and resurrected to Her glory all things will be made known. This generation will receive their rewards. Whether it be to outer darkness for the pure evil or The Top Glory of the Celestial Kingdom for the pure. Despise the sin, hate the rebellion, show your displeasure with the demons and the sinful mortals. You have every right to be angry but at the end of the day:

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/64.9-14

Do you suppose I have not wanted to hate?  Holding the hand of my colleague as she wept, her being in charge of a team tasked to rescue overseas but because of politics AND OBEYING RULES the objective was not met...  Do you not suppose my heart ached for her as she blamed herself for the failure that resulted in (Horrific Brutal) death? (just one life example) 

If you think I hold the evil and wicked as innocent you are mistaken. I am just trying to be better each day... I am trying to forgive as I have been forgiven and commanded to.

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Overwatch

[MaryJehanne]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Again LDS don't really talk about "nature".  But a human and a dog are different species (again, that's a horrible word).  A dog is a dog.  I am a human and have a Father in Heaven.  Same with all humans and human spirits (even if they never received a body due to rebellion).  

Ah, okay! So you would say animals do not have a soul like a person does?

 

56 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

hm. I happen to have a history of meeting with demons [NOT] by choice, starting from very young. I have been treated very badly not only by legion but by people who kept their first estate. I can tell that you SOME mortals are capable of making devils shake with some of the sins they commit. I can almost hear them say "They actually did it" SIN is SIN. Do you suppose that I am not aware of the evil of the fallen? Do you suppose that I have not thought deep of sins committed by the living? For example Cain not only did he commit the first murder but do you not suppose that it was determined, at first, Christ would be born through the seed of Abel? So not only becoming "Master" Mahan but an attempt to stop the progress of the plan of salvation. Do you suppose that God would speak to Cain if he was not at some point righteous? Legion, Demons, Perdition.... Do you not suppose that my heart does not ache for the loss of my brethren, for the pain of my FATHER (GOD) in losing 1/3 of his CHILDREN. I am not sure you understand the deep loss that was incurred that day and the shameful loss that continues still. 

Demons CANNOT force you to do evil. Legion have NO power when you stand in holy places and when you call upon the Lord, WHEN YOU KEEP YOUR COVENANTS. We are agents unto ourselves. 

We are a FAMILY. When Mother Earth is burned and resurrected to Her glory all things will be made known. This generation will receive their rewards. Whether it be to outer darkness for the pure evil or The Top Glory of the Celestial Kingdom for the pure. Despise the sin, hate the rebellion, show your displeasure with the demons and the sinful mortals. You have every right to be angry but at the end of the day:

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/64.9-14

Do you suppose I have not wanted to hate?  Holding the hand of my colleague as she wept, her being in charge of a team tasked to rescue overseas but because of politics AND OBEYING RULES the objective was not met...  Do you not suppose my heart ached for her as she blamed herself for the failure that resulted in (Horrific Brutal) death? (just one life example) 

If you think I hold the evil and wicked as innocent you are mistaken. I am just trying to be better each day... I am trying to forgive as I have been forgiven and commanded to.

 

Hi, Overwatch! I’m sorry if you misinterpreted my post to mean something other than what I intended; I only meant that there’s perhaps a disconnect I’m experiencing between our concepts of fallen angels, mine being a more-powerful-than-humans nature, while yours is a human nature. I thought, coming from your background as LDS, you might not understand why and how I view angels differently. I assumed you may have trouble understanding the concept I’m working off of, just as I started this thread because I had limited knowledge in understanding yours! I was attempting to express that, but unfortunately I must have failed. I’m sorry if anything I said came off as an insult.

I would agree; demons cannot force the will. 

I’m not sure what you’re directing the part about hate towards, but I’m presuming that must again be a misunderstanding! I hold that demons are evil, and that they will not repent, but I don’t mean to say that hatred is the correct disposition. Hatred, willing the ill of another, is never justified towards anyone, living or dead, good or evil, angel or man. I was only pointing out (if I’m right about the part that this is about!) that we’re coming from different perspectives: you believe (if I understand correctly!) that demons are redeemable, that they can change their minds, while I believe they have already made their choice. By that, I wanted to try to explain my reactions, since the creatures I think of are vastly different from what you believe in, even though we’re using the same vocabulary to describe them. (A creature, for instance, that is set eternally in evil, versus one that is pliant and can change to good, is a darker creature) I was trying to emphasize that I’m thinking about a higher creature that had gone forever bad, versus a wicked human, the perspective the LDS Church is coming from. Again, the LDS, if I understand, think of fallen angels as HUMANS, with the attributes proper to mankind. That’s not what I’m thinking of or talking about, which is probably a large reason why my post missed its mark. I hope that better explained my view... I’m sorry if I failed again and it came off as combativeness. 

It’s not the individual sins that trouble me, but the nature combined with intent. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by MaryJehanne

[Overwatch]

11 hours ago, MaryJehanne said:

Ah, okay! So you would say animals do not have a soul like a person does?

 

Hi, Overwatch! I’m sorry if you misinterpreted my post to mean something other than what I intended; I only meant that there’s perhaps a disconnect I’m experiencing between our concepts of fallen angels, mine being a more-powerful-than-humans nature, while yours is a human nature. I thought, coming from your background as LDS, you might not understand why and how I view angels differently. I assumed you may have trouble understanding the concept I’m working off of, just as I started this thread because I had limited knowledge in understanding yours! I was attempting to express that, but unfortunately I must have failed. I’m sorry if anything I said came off as an insult.

I would agree; demons cannot force the will. 

I’m not sure what you’re directing the part about hate towards, but I’m presuming that must again be a misunderstanding! I hold that demons are evil, and that they will not repent, but I don’t mean to say that hatred is the correct disposition. Hatred, willing the ill of another, is never justified towards anyone, living or dead, good or evil, angel or man. I was only pointing out (if I’m right about the part that this is about!) that we’re coming from different perspectives: you believe (if I understand correctly!) that demons are redeemable, that they can change their minds, while I believe they have already made their choice. By that, I wanted to try to explain my reactions, since the creatures I think of are vastly different from what you believe in, even though we’re using the same vocabulary to describe them. (A creature, for instance, that is set eternally in evil, versus one that is pliant and can change to good, is a darker creature) I was trying to emphasize that I’m thinking about a higher creature that had gone forever bad, versus a wicked human, the perspective the LDS Church is coming from. Again, the LDS, if I understand, think of fallen angels as HUMANS, with the attributes proper to mankind. That’s not what I’m thinking of or talking about, which is probably a large reason why my post missed its mark. I hope that better explained my view... I’m sorry if I failed again and it came off as combativeness. 

It’s not the individual sins that trouble me, but the nature combined with intent. 

As far as the sons of perdition are concerned I cannot say if they are redeemable or even want to be. They are not animals or creatures but fallen sons and daughters of God once divine and beautiful. Now they are in deep, hateful darkness. I said in prior post that they despise us and desire our down fall. It is my, personal hope, that they could repent... come back to Father.

You see... I have had wonderful experiences also. I can tell you as the Sun shines in the sky, that we look like God, He is our Father. He is not only powerful but more loving than you can possibly imagine. He is very interested in ALL of our progression. With that being said he has provided us with protection in this life against the fallen.

YOU, yes YOU are more powerful than the demons WHEN you call upon the Lord and receive His power and protection. If you are deeply afraid... don't be. They aren't gargoyles or black ominous phantoms. Yes I understand they change themselves and can make themselves look creepy (believe me I know) I have, through the holy spirit, seen them without the smoke and mirrors. I saw a spirit in human form, dressed in the royal clothes of home (but soiled in sin) I saw a very, very unhappy child of God suffering from their choices.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Overwatch

[Jane_Doe]

16 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

Ah, okay! So you would say animals do not have a soul like a person does?

A dog has a dog spirit, not a human one.  We don't spend a lot of time talking about dog spirits (in fact pretty much never ever ever). 

16 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

I was only pointing out (if I’m right about the part that this is about!) that we’re coming from different perspectives: you believe (if I understand correctly!) that demons are redeemable, that they can change their minds, while I believe they have already made their choice.

LDS do not believe one of Satan followers (a fallen spirit/ fallen angel / demon / whatever you want to call it) can be redeemed.  They made their choice to follow Lucifer/Satan and it cannot be undone. 

16 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

I was trying to emphasize that I’m thinking about a higher creature that had gone forever bad, versus a wicked human, the perspective the LDS Church is coming from

LDS also believe that Satan and his followers have forever gone bad.  

16 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

 Again, the LDS, if I understand, think of fallen angels as HUMANS, with the attributes proper to mankind.

This isn't quite accurate.

When we say "human" we'll usually talking about the flesh & blood ones walking around here on Earth.  Individuals who don't have bodies (for whatever reason) are usually just referred to as "spirits".  You could say "human spirit" but that seems a little redundant.  

I would also be cautious about your statement "with the attributes proper to mankind" and would want to unpack that further before commenting on it. 

16 minutes ago, MaryJehanne said:

It’s not the individual sins that trouble me, but the nature combined with intent. 

Note: if one of the attibutes you're attributing to humans is a "sin nature" that a statement that needs MEGA unpacking as their are major difference here between LDS and Catholics.

 

 

 

(Bytheway, great questions!  Very thoughtful and probing)

[Overwatch]

When people talk about perdition, or those who have committed the unpardonable sin, I think it is over looked that we are required to forgive others as many times as they ask for forgiveness. While sins vary in severity all sin is sin. They are perdition because THEY REFUSE TO REPENT AND ACTIVELY FIGHT AGAINST FATHER. <-- This is it. God is merciful and calls to the living to repent. This life is the time to prepare to meet God. We should all be striving to achieve all that the Father has waiting for us. 

Once we die and the righteous are resurrected and the wicked are dealt their punishments. Once they suffer for their sins (for refusing the Savior's sacrifice) They will bow before the King, recognize He is the Christ and be given whatever increase their works merit and Mercy of God allow.

As you study you will see that the Fallen/perdition receive the worst at the end of this trial because they hate until the bitter end. They receive NO glory and are cast into outer darkness. The ending and details of which is none of our business but theirs and God's. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Overwatch