Spirit Children

[zil]

8 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

Also because of my dad's beliefs he's brought a person into our lives that is brought nothing but pain to our whole family, and because he married her for Time and Eternity, he will not admit that he made a huge mistake.

This is the real problem.

8 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

he believes that my mom will accept this woman and live in polygamy for all eternity. I also don't see how unloving father would ask his daughter's to live this way. All this stuff is just doesn't seem right, doesn't sound like anything I would want to do for eternity. My dad prays and goes to the temple at least twice a week, for me to change. The fact that I can't wrap my head around this stuff causes him nothing but pain. And I don't know how to fix that.  

You need to stop thinking about yourself, and he needs to stop thinking about himself.  You need to listen harder than you ever have before to his feelings, experiences, and desires - without once thinking about how to respond to them or explain yourself.  Your goal should only be to understand.  You should go into it believing that he is sincere, honest, and virtuous in his intent.  Then those roles should reverse.  He should go into it understanding that the pain you feel is real and that it's not his job to "fix" it, but to understand it (that's very hard for a man - they don't see the point if it's not to "fix" it).

Quote

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Paul clearly tells us we cannot imagine heaven.  Yet you are imagining up nightmares of your own making and then rejecting them as unacceptable.  If you can reach a point where you acknowledge that these are your own ideas, it will be much easier to find peace.  Yes, it is nigh impossible for the human mind to accept a lack of knowledge.  We fear the unknown even when a trustworthy person tells us there's nothing to fear.  But in this case, it is better to come to peace with the not-knowing than to torment ourselves with our own imagined, nightmarish-to-us version of heaven.

Please note that you aren't the only person who does or has done this - not by far.  Why right here in this thread, we have two people who have taken diametrically opposed views of how spirit children come to be spirit children.  Each believes they have solid evidence for their interpretation and I'd bet neither one of them is yet willing to recognize that neither of their sources is sufficient for either of their interpretations to be held to so doggedly.  The simple fact is that we do not know.

The lines immediately preceding the quote I gave in my previous reply:

Quote

Aristotle pointed out long ago that a shortage of knowledge is an intolerable state, and so the mind will do anything to escape it; in particular, it will invent knowledge if it has to. Experimenters have found that lack of information quickly breeds insecurity in a situation where any information is regarded as better than none.¹⁵ In that atmosphere, false information flourishes; and subjects in tests are “eager to listen to and believe any sort of preposterous nonsense.”¹⁶ Why so? We repeat, because the very nature of man requires him to use his mind to capacity:

-- Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion, Chapter 3: "Zeal without Knowledge"

Rather than torment yourself with what may be false conclusions, learn to analyze the scope of what something really says.

But more importantly, you need to learn a different, more selfless way to interact with your father (and he may well need to do the same).  And this won't happen quickly, so be patient, and go into it not intending to make yourself understood, but to understand him.

Edited July 27, 2018 by zil

[anatess2]

Hi @TurboGirl.  Your questions are good and valid.  At the same time, I believe you are asking a question that does not resolve your conundrum.  Questions pertaining to life after final judgment are very deep questions and is very difficult to grasp for someone who doesn't even accept the truths pertaining our mortal condition.  We are taught that faith is built line upon line, precept upon precept.  So, we start in "Kindergarten" gospel principles with "God loves me".  We build faith on that first then we can move on to "1st Grade".   We may have to take remedial classes if we get confused and go back to a simpler precept but it is always confusing to jump over a few or a lot of precepts and tackle higher faith lessons.  Celestial Glory and our lives of being gods ourselves including being able to build worlds and gather spirits of our own is a "PhD class".

I believe what you need is "How can I learn to love my stepmother without feeling like a traitor to my mother?" or maybe, "How can I love my father?" or maybe, "How can I forgive my father?", or "How do I recover from grief?".

 

[TurboGirl]

3 hours ago, person0 said:

Why do you believe it was a huge mistake?  Is she a bad person?  From what you have written, it sounds like perhaps she treats your father and/or his children badly.  Also, if you do not see the Bible or Book of Mormon as factual, then what your objective in starting this discussion?  Are you actually seeking to understand LDS concepts?  Or do you have a different objective?  Are you trying to determine how to help your dad see your point of view?

In my book yes she is not a nice person. She uses my dad beliefs to manipulate him, and she is very jealous of him giving his time to anyone but her (he even had to get rid of the dog he shared with my mom). Her belief/love for the LDS church are unlike any other member I have met, it a little disturbing, and she is now taking my dad with her. When I was Mormon I did not know that they still believed polygamy in the after life, until my dad announced he was going to marry again for eternity. This woman then became obsessed with my mom, and using information to manipulate my dad. He was not that into the Church before my mom died, and not so obsessed with getting me and my family to go.They have both turn into, in my opinion, religious fanatics. Telling me all kinds of stuff, that I started to look up on LDS.org and other sources...and it was true stuff. Maybe to people that believe this stuff is okay, but to an outsider it's just very weird. He begged me to read the BOM, which I did. I don't know, maybe there is no understanding it for me. To bad my dad makes talking about religion as a condition of being around him.

Edited July 27, 2018 by TurboGirl

[TurboGirl]

3 hours ago, zil said:

Rather than torment yourself with what may be false conclusions, learn to analyze the scope of what something really says.

But more importantly, you need to learn a different, more selfless way to interact with your father (and he may well need to do the same).  And this won't happen quickly, so be patient, and go into it not intending to make yourself understood, but to understand him.

That is what I am trying to do is understand. He just gets very upset with my questions, and upset that I just don't believe the same thing. I've even gone through the missionary discussions for him. And they don't take about any of this stuff.

[TurboGirl]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

@TurboGirl

I believe what you need is "How can I learn to love my stepmother without feeling like a traitor to my mother?" or maybe, "How can I love my father?" or maybe, "How can I forgive my father?", or "How do I recover from grief?".

 

1. I don't feel like I being a traitor to my mother. The relationship with his wife is very complicated.

2. I don't need to forgive my father for anything he has done nothing wrong. He just strongly wants me to believe something I don't.

Believe it or not you all have been helping me understand why someone would want to believe in Spirit Children. It's not for me, or my version of what I hope Heaven will be.

[person0]

18 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

In my book yes she is not a nice person. She uses my dad beliefs to manipulate him, and she is very jealous of him giving his time to anyone but her (he even had to get rid of the dog he shared with my mom). Her belief/love for the LDS church are unlike any other member I have met, it a little disturbing, and she is now taking my dad with her. When I was Mormon I did not know that they still believed polygamy in the after life, until my dad announced he was going to marry again for eternity. This woman then became obsessed with my mom, and using information to manipulate my dad. He was not that into the Church before my mom died, and not so obsessed with getting me and my family to go.The have both turn into, in my opinion, religious fanatics. Telling me all kinds of stuff, that I started to look up on LDS.org and other sources...and it was true stuff. Maybe to people that believe this stuff is okay, but to an outsider it's just very weird. He begged me to read the BOM, which I did. I don't know, maybe there is no understanding it for me. To bad my dad makes talking about religion as a condition of being around him.

I suppose different people experience different environments, however, personally, I would assume that almost any non-religious person who had a family level interaction with an active faithful and committed Latter-Day Saint, would likely view them as a 'religious fanatic'.  I can assure you that you are talking to a bunch of people on a forum, and probably 80% of us could be considered religious fanatics.  I mean, we spend our free time on a religious forum talking about religion with anyone who wants too.  If that doesn't qualify as a fanatic, I'm not sure what does.  So, honestly, I personally have trouble seeing the fanatic part as an issue.  However, if all of a sudden I went to visit my mom and she became fanatic about a religion I didn't believe, I would definitely be uncomfortable with constant conversation, so I don't want to discount your experience either.

What I do see as a primary issue, would be the communication problems going on.  Your dad is apparently, not effectively communicating his thoughts to you in a way that is comfortable, and I assume that from his perspective you may not be listening, or comprehending what he has to say (even though perhaps you are).  For many of us who are devout Latter-Day Saints, if one has a strong testimony they have received by the power of the Holy Ghost, it is then reinforced by our logical understanding of gospel concepts.  With those pieces, it actually becomes difficult to understand how someone else would not see things the same way.  I personally am so convinced that my religion is true, that if I were to decide it weren't true, the only alternative I can accept would be atheism/agnosticism.  Anyway, I'm just trying to help you perhaps get into the mind of your father, although, admittedly, I still know almost nothing about him.

Also, for any practicing and studious Latter-Day Saint, the concepts of plural marriage in the after life are yesterdays news.  These are not things that are unknown, or hidden concepts.  Church resources clearly indicate that a man can be sealed to more than one spouse, just not married to both at the same time.  I am curious to know what you feel is the 'weird' stuff because, as I mentioned before, sometimes to comprehend something you have to interpret it within the paradigm of the person who believes it.  For example: we believe that we are commanded by God to not drink coffee, or tea; this would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, unless you also recognize that we believe Joseph Smith was a real prophet of God, who received a real revelation from God that leads us to that belief.

If your dad's wife is actually manipulating him, that is definitely a problem.  However, what you see as manipulation, he might see as help to become more perfect.  For example:  Many members of the Church follow the counsel given by a previous prophet to not watch R rated movies.  If your dad gets really excited to go see a movie with you that is rated R and his wife comes and tells him he shouldn't go because it is rated R, while he may express disappointment, he might also be grateful in the long run, as he may be striving to seek a higher standard.  It really depends on what is actually happening there.

Now, one question to ask yourself in consideration of your fathers behavior.  Imagine for a moment you actually believed all of it.  Imagine that in your heart you were absolutely 100% convinced that the LDS Church is truly the Church of Jesus Christ, and has the truth and the doctrine needed for salvation.  How might you be different from how you are now?  Now place yourself in your dad's shoes with the same convictions, try and see what he might be seeing.  Perhaps that can help with your communication as well.

[zil]

14 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

I don't need to forgive my father for anything he has done nothing wrong.

I'm not saying who is right or wrong in any of this (that seems pointless to me).  Given these things you wrote (emphasis mine):

11 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

Also because of my dad's beliefs he's brought a person into our lives that is brought nothing but pain to our whole family, and because he married her for Time and Eternity, he will not admit that he made a huge mistake.

44 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

In my book yes she is not a nice person. She uses my dad beliefs to manipulate him, and she is very jealous of him giving his time to anyone but her (he even had to get rid of the dog he shared with my mom). Her belief/love for the LDS church are unlike any other member I have met, it a little disturbing, and she is now taking my dad with her. When I was Mormon I did not know that they still believed polygamy in the after life, until my dad announced he was going to marry again for eternity. This woman then became obsessed with my mom, and using information to manipulate my dad.

...do you see why some of us got the impression that he had done something wrong (in your eyes)?  And why that might indicate you have an opportunity to forgive him?

This is just an example of how two people, looking at the same thing, perceive it very differently.  Neither party has ill intent, both parties have good reason to believe what they believe, and yet, they see differently.  To avoid contention, both sides have to concede that the other is experiencing their own reality and perspective.

Regardless, I'm hoping we can give you information and tools that will help you deal with this situation in a way that doesn't involve contention.  I have no idea whether your dad and his new wife have gone nuts (it happens), or whether they're behaving in a way that would seem normal to most Mormons, but is disturbing to you.  But regardless, the possible techniques to interact well with him are pretty much the same, and hopefully you can find ones that will work for you within this thread (and/or others that you may participate in).

One of those tools is to "step out of yourself" and view your own and his actions as an outsider with no emotional investment.  Technically, this is impossible, but one can do it to a degree, and it can help one to adjust expectations, gain understanding, and keep a cool head.  At the end of the day, words are just sound waves traveling from one person's mouth to another's ears.  As long as the volume isn't physically painful, they have no power unless the listener gives them power (yes, very, very hard to do, but not impossible and trying can help in situations that are otherwise contentious).

39 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

That is what I am trying to do is understand. He just gets very upset with my questions, and upset that I just don't believe the same thing.

It may be that you need to learn a new way to ask your questions - not because you're doing it wrong, but because your method is upsetting him.  If he can't find a way to not get upset, and you still want to ask your questions, then regardless of fault, the solution is to come up with a new way of phrasing questions.  Or it may be that you need to ask us your questions, and not ask your dad.  You'll have to figure that one out.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

1. I don't feel like I being a traitor to my mother. The relationship with his wife is very complicated.

2. I don't need to forgive my father for anything he has done nothing wrong. He just strongly wants me to believe something I don't.

Believe it or not you all have been helping me understand why someone would want to believe in Spirit Children. It's not for me, or my version of what I hope Heaven will be.

Those are just sample questions.  Another sample question would be - "How do I love my stepmother?" 

I don't really know (or understand) what the purpose of the questions are.   Like on #2 you say - he just strongly wants me to believe something I don't.  That can mean so many things pertaining to your questions - it can be that you want to believe or it can be that you don't want to believe so you want to have some facts to be able to take back to your father to be able to tell him this is why I don't believe... etc. etc.

Either way, those can't really be addressed through the spirit children question because it's sooo "up there" that it just make things very confusing.  Because, what does it matter if celestial beings beget spiritual children if you don't believe there's such a thing as a celestial glory or that your father might even qualify for such.  So, it will better help us address what you really need if we know what exactly you're trying to accomplish/resolve.

But hey, that's just me.

Edited July 27, 2018 by anatess2

[TurboGirl]

5 hours ago, person0 said:

 I would assume that almost any non-religious person who had a family level interaction with an active faithful and committed Latter-Day Saint, would likely view them as a 'religious fanatic'.

  I am curious to know what you feel is the 'weird' stuff because, as I mentioned before, sometimes to comprehend something you have to interpret it within the paradigm of the person who believes it. 
 

I live in Utah so most of the people I know are LDS, and when I have talked to them about her behavior, they agree she is not normal. LOL.

Weird stuff is like continuing to have children in Heaven, polygamy, having your own earth, Joseph Smith being sealed to other men wives. There are other things that are not weird I just don't agree with. I'm sure you have all heard my doubts from other people that come on to be hateful, so I won't bore you with all of it.

[TurboGirl]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

  So, it will better help us address what you really need if we know what exactly you're trying to accomplish/resolve.

 

I guess I just wanted to see what members thought about it, with no drama.

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Weird stuff is like continuing to have children in Heaven, polygamy, having your own earth, Joseph Smith being sealed to other men wives. 

I would agree that those things are going on speculation territory / things we just don't know much about.

Also, if anyone is pushing you to adopt something you're not comfortable with, you're well within your rights to say "no" or have that be an off-topic conversation.  Especially when dealing with LDS as we mega-believe you have the right to believe as YOUR conscious dictates.

[LePeel]

16 hours ago, BJ64 said:

Brigham Young said there is only one way to create a physical body and that is how it has always been done. 

Before I continue, what does Brigham Young say about this? Can I get a quote?

[person0]

1 hour ago, TurboGirl said:

I live in Utah so most of the people I know are LDS, and when I have talked to them about her behavior, they agree she is not normal. LOL.

Weird stuff is like continuing to have children in Heaven, polygamy, having your own earth, Joseph Smith being sealed to other men wives. There are other things that are not weird I just don't agree with. I'm sure you have all heard my doubts from other people that come on to be hateful, so I won't bore you with all of it.

No offense intended to your friends, but Utah has such a high concentration of members of the Church, that well, I suppose the best way to put this is that. . . technically you are a member of the Church right?  Consider how you grew up and how in you have also said that your dad started getting more into the Church after your mom died, but before hand he wasn't as serious or gung-ho about it.  If most of the people you know fit into that category, then although they might be 'normal', they might not be devout.  Christ wants us to be true disciples, each of us should be seeking to the same level of devout following as the original 12 apostles He chose.  If the people you know aren't striving for that, then perhaps 'normal' is actually below the bar.  I only say this not as an attack or insult, but just to try and better help you and us determine what 'normal' really means.

Now, to tackle some of the things you have brought up, is actually somewhat simple on the surface;  there are things members of the Church believe that are established doctrine, and other things that are speculation, even though previous leaders of the Church may have said them.  Things like plural marriage and Eternal Increase (having children in heaven), these things are established.  It is also factual that Joseph Smith was sealed for eternity to the wives of other men, who were still married to those women for time (mortality).  As far as the reasons for that, we don't exactly understand it all, but we trust that the Lord will make sense of it, and where needed, make corrections and adjustments to all our relational ties in preparation for the resurrection.  As far as having your own earth, well, we teach that we will live here on this earth as it will become the celestial kingdom, and we teach that we may have the opportunity to bear children in heaven, but beyond that, the rest is speculation.  We might create worlds, or God might just be in charge of that, who knows what will actually happen.  However, we don't believe that once this world is finished that God is going to all of a sudden call it quits.  He will continue to create and expand His works, because that is His Glory.

All that said, it is highly unusual if members of the Church are spending the majority of their time talking about eternal increase and the like.  I mean, aside from your topic, I can only remember a handful of times we have bothered to discuss it here in this forum.  If this is a very frequent topic of discussion, and if it is not spawned because of your father simply trying to find ways to help you overcome your concerns, then perhaps that is weird.  I don't know what your daily life is like though, so I can't really judge that.

Anyway, you don't have to actually believe everything the Church teaches to determine certain things for yourself piece by piece.  Perhaps first decide if you believe there is a God, then decide if you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.  The easiest way to reach those conclusions is through studying the Bible and Book of Mormon passages about God and Christ, and praying to seek the comfort of the Holy Ghost to confirm if they are real and true.  From there you can go one piece at a time, to determine what you believe, and what you don't.  You may have already seen that many of us members of this very forum disagree with one another on various subjects.  You don't have to accept it all in order to recognize important portions of the Gospel that are true!

Feel free to share any and all of your doubts.  As long as you are sincere in your search for answers, and do not have the intent to belittle or make light of sacred things, no one here will be bothered by it.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, person0 said:

Feel free to share any and all of your doubts.  As long as you are sincere in your search for answers, and do not have the intent to belittle or make light of sacred things, no one here will be bothered by it.

Amen. 

[BJ64]

1 hour ago, LePeel said:

Before I continue, what does Brigham Young say about this? Can I get a quote?

“God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works and given them the same attributes which He Himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be.” 

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 11:122-123

[wenglund]

12 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

Believe it or not you all have been helping me understand why someone would want to believe in Spirit Children. It's not for me, or my version of what I hope Heaven will be.

Has your father and/or step mother asked what you hope heaven would be? If not, I for one would be interested to know.

Just out of curiosity, do you now have children or do you plan to have children some day?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[LePeel]

15 hours ago, BJ64 said:

“God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works and given them the same attributes which He Himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be.” 

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 11:122-123

What is the meaning of this quote?

[BJ64]

50 minutes ago, LePeel said:

What is the meaning of this quote?

What isn’t to understand? He is saying that God creates his children (Adam & Eve) the same way we create our children, that there is no other process for creating a human body. 

[LePeel]

11 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

What isn’t to understand? He is saying that God creates his children (Adam & Eve) the same way we create our children, that there is no other process for creating a human body. 

What does that have to do with your assertion that spirits aren't born?

[TurboGirl]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:07 PM, person0 said:

@person0 @wenglund

I'll try and give you a really brief history on me so you know that I'm not completely lost on Mormon theology. My parents met in Utah County Utah as teenagers and got married. They had my older brother and move to Colorado where they had me. We then move to Texas. My brother was baptized, but my parents didn't really attend church until my uncle came to Texas to visit after he got off his mission, he gave my parents a book called The Miracle of forgiveness. And told my dad that he had to be the one to baptize me. So we started going. And I was baptized. They worked to be able to go to the temple and have me and my brother stealed to them. For the most part when I was a kid I didn't mind it, I had friends and it was sometimes fun. My brother spent a lot of Summers up working for that same uncle, who has been a bishop multiple times and served on the bishop brig multiple times. My brother graduated high school and went up to Ricks College or BYU Idaho, we then moved back to Utah I was 14. My brother went on a mission and then was married in the temple, he is still an active devout LDS member. When we moved to Utah my parents kind of stopped going to church or they go off and on. I chose to stop. I've been in a temple and did baptisms for the dead.

Fast forward to 1991 and I became a single mother and chose not to marry the father. Not a popular option with the LDS community. I would try off and on to go back to church and pay tithing and do everything that was asked of you, but it just never took. I am now happily married, have three children, 14, 21, & 27. And do not attend church.

Sorry this is already getting too long. Fast forward to 2014, my mom dies. My mom and dad had been together since teenagers so needless to say my dad was devastated. Me and my brother tried to pull him close but he hid from us with his pain. in Steps my uncle again and tells my dad that men are not meant to be alone that he needed to date and get married again. This Uncle first wife had also died and he is married to his second wife and the temple.I didn't think he was ready for that but when he asked me you just want to be supportive. The world of dating had changed a lot since 1966 and my dad hated it. He was on the LDS singles and hated online dating. One day he told me that he didn't think he wanted to date anymore. Two weeks after that he introduces me to a woman, quite a bit younger than him, and told me that he had asked her to marry him. This was not even a year after my mother's death. When he told us that he was going to start dating, he told both me my brother and my mother's mother that he was only going to marry for time there was no way it was going to marry anybody for Time and Eternity. Anyway This Woman's ex husband was not a nice person. Somehow she convinced my dad, that is she got a temple divorce to marry her for All Time and Eternity. And they were married a month later. 

And since I didn't really believe in the LDS faith and knew very little about polygamy. I was still going under the belief I had as a teenager that they had to marry the women whose husbands and died on the way out to Utah and that's how it started. So it just wasn't a big deal to me. It was harder that this woman had chosen the weekend of one year anniversary of my mother's death as their wedding day. She uses feelings and promptings of the faith and Temple work to manipulate my dad and that really bothers me and my brother. That is why I'm trying to understand this stuff, if I'm going to understand her at all.

[TurboGirl]

Hasn't pretty much everything Brigham Young said and set aside by today's Church?

[BJ64]

4 hours ago, LePeel said:

What does that have to do with your assertion that spirits aren't born?

Nothing. It is showing that in the eternities exalted couples will be baring children with physical bodies, not spirits.  

[BJ64]

3 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

Hasn't pretty much everything Brigham Young said and set aside by today's Church?

I wouldn’t say that. Only the Adam God theory as far as I know. 

[LePeel]

52 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Nothing. It is showing that in the eternities exalted couples will be baring children with physical bodies, not spirits.  

The very same sermon continues a few sentences down:

"I am quite satisfied to be made aware by the scriptures, and by the Spirit of God, that He is not only the God and Father of Jesus Christ, but is also the Father of our spirits and the Creator of our bodies which bear His image as Seth bore the image of his father Adam."

 

Even so, the notion that children born in eternity have bodies from birth defies the very laws which demanded our probation in mortality. Furthermore, if spirits cannot be made, formed, or organized, as you suppose. Then children born in eternity must be different from us, a different race entirely, for they are not gods, for they don't have spirits. Unless you suppose they have spirits the same as ours? In that case they live in a state of damnation, for they don't have the knowledge of good and evil which we have, because they never fell, they never had the law. They have no path of progression, they have no future, they aren't happy, nor do they have joy, nor sadness, because, like a man born blind, they cannot see. 

[LePeel]

4 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

Hasn't pretty much everything Brigham Young said and set aside by today's Church?

Brigham Young is right when he's right, and wrong when he's wrong, and a prophet only when he's a prophet. He has a very practical and "realistic" way of putting gospel topics that I appreciate. Try reading or listening to Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Bringham Young if you haven't already, he tends to put things in an interesting way.