Results of the Flood

[lostinwater]

Just my feeling from all the interactions i've had with others, but i think most people leave TCOJCOLDS because of the massive gap between what it claimed it was, and what it actually was (or at least what it's real history and inner workings were/are), when they actually investigated it in great detail.

Not everyone comes to the same conclusion when analyzing the meaning of the data, and some people are more able to compartmentalize or rationalize than others, but i think for the average person leaving, that's the main one.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

Just my feeling from all the interactions i've had with others, but i think most people leave TCOJCOLDS because of the massive gap between what it claimed it was, and what it actually was (or at least what it's real history and inner workings were/are), when they actually investigated it in great detail.

Not everyone comes to the same conclusion when analyzing the meaning of the data, and some people are more able to compartmentalize or rationalize than others, but i think for the average person leaving, that's the main one.

You may be right about those who formally leave the Church. 

For those of us who stay, our analysis of the data tends to reveal massive gaps in ourselves, which gives added meaning to, and reveals the real intents and purposes, of the Church, and the chief cornerstone thereof.

It makes sense, then, regardless of presumed or projected compartmentalizing and rationalization, that different conclusions would result from different directions to which the analytical magnifying glass is faced.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

Edited September 2, 2018 by wenglund

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, theplains said:

If the Book of Mormon is not a historical record of the Nephites and Jaredites, would you consider LDS
leaders as deceitful teachers or spiritually blinded by the devil?

Jim

Not at all.  First off - I believe there is great confusion as to what constitutes a historical document.  It is my understanding that all sacred scripture is not so much about a past history as it is intended to be prophetic rather than historic.  To be honest - the deceitful teachers blinded by the devil are those that refuse to move beyond looking backward into the past to be enlightened by the future and what will be. 

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

9 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Just my feeling from all the interactions i've had with others, but i think most people leave TCOJCOLDS because of the massive gap between what it claimed it was, and what it actually was (or at least what it's real history and inner workings were/are), when they actually investigated it in great detail.

Not everyone comes to the same conclusion when analyzing the meaning of the data, and some people are more able to compartmentalize or rationalize than others, but i think for the average person leaving, that's the main one.

It is my observation that most that leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (perhaps not all but most) is because their lives are not in harmony with the principles of the gospel - some because of the principles of personal discipline and some because of the principles of dealing with others (primarily forgiveness). 

 

The Traveler

[zil]

17 hours ago, wenglund said:

If interested: 

 

Here is the text version with references: https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/ascending-mountain-lord-temple-praise-and-worship-old-testament/tree-knowledge-veil

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

This is really interesting, giving lots to think about.  It makes me wonder about the "veil of forgetfulness", and how some people seem to have suggested that becoming mortal and sinning are akin to partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge - whereas this talk speaks of the tree of knowledge as giving that knowledge which brings one back into the presence of God (like going through the temple veil into the Celestial Room).  Can it be that the same veil removes knowledge (memory) in one direction and restores it in the other?  Lots to consider.

[lostinwater]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is my observation that most that leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (perhaps not all but most) is because their lives are not in harmony with the principles of the gospel - some because of the principles of personal discipline and some because of the principles of dealing with others (primarily forgiveness). 

  

 The Traveler

Thanks @Traveler

Honest question - do you think the people who leave see it the same way?  i'm guessing not - and assuming that's correct, do you think they've just sold themselves a false narrative to justify a desire to sin and not forgive?  i used to think same as you - that everyone who left must have been sinning, or have chosen to be offended.  But after experiencing this myself, and talking with hundreds of others who've left - that seems to me to almost never be the case.

i know you are very analytical in how you approach how you view things - and it's fascinating to me that this is the conclusion you would have come to.  i respect it of course - especially because i don't interact with the same people you do - but it's just really interesting to me.

[lostinwater]

16 hours ago, wenglund said:

You may be right about those who formally leave the Church. 

For those of us who stay, our analysis of the data tends to reveal massive gaps in ourselves, which gives added meaning to, and reveals the real intents and purposes, of the Church, and the chief cornerstone thereof.

It makes sense, then, regardless of presumed or projected compartmentalizing and rationalization, that different conclusions would result from different directions to which the analytical magnifying glass is faced.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

Thanks Wade.  

And when i talked about compartmentalizing and rationalization, i'm as guilty of that as anyone.  Personally, i tend to think there's more to the Book of Mormon than most people who leave are comfortably admitting (i'm looking at myself).  And at the same time way more flaws (on a totally fundamental level) than the average TCOJCOLDS apologist or member wants to admit.

You can let intellectualism whittle your beliefs right down to an animalistic-driven kind of atheism - which makes the world look like one heck of a terrible, senselessly horrific place.  

Everyone seems to draw their line in the sand and compartmentalizes and rationalizes to protect their belief/faith.  And that's much less of a bad thing than secularism makes it out to be.  Just my opinion, but it seems to come down to personal choice - usually based on an emotional feeling - and then finding evidence that corroborates that.  

Regardless, i respect people who treat others as well as you do - in or out of TCOJCOLDS.  For me, that is where the rubber meets the road - a true sign of what the religion that person adheres to has wrought within them.

[Rob Osborn]

I've never met anyone who left the church who believes the Book of Mormon to be a true historical book

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks @Traveler

Honest question - do you think the people who leave see it the same way?  i'm guessing not - and assuming that's correct, do you think they've just sold themselves a false narrative to justify a desire to sin and not forgive?  i used to think same as you - that everyone who left must have been sinning, or have chosen to be offended.  But after experiencing this myself, and talking with hundreds of others who've left - that seems to me to almost never be the case.

i know you are very analytical in how you approach how you view things - and it's fascinating to me that this is the conclusion you would have come to.  i respect it of course - especially because i don't interact with the same people you do - but it's just really interesting to me.

I have observed that it is a most rare occasion that anyone feels they are to blame for anything.  Perhaps when someone that has left the Church of Jesus Christ but later to return may recognize that their leaving was their fault and spiritual failing - but certainly not while the are determined to leave.  We humans love excuses for everything we do - especially while we are doing it.  It is a rare individual that is willing to take full responsibility for their thought and actions.

I have conversed with many to claim to have found something better - only later to discover that have fallen into activities and behaviors they use to condemn and in many cases still realize is wrong.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

On 8/14/2018 at 1:20 PM, zil said:

By FAR, the best you've ever done.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

By FAR, the best you've ever done.

Glad you liked it - that's the whole reason for these - hoping someone will laugh.

[Guest]

On 8/23/2018 at 5:35 PM, Grunt said:

I guess I'm just not inspired by people arguing over whether scripture is figurative or literal.

That's why I stopped talking to people like Rob.  Not because he believes differently than I do.  But because he doesn't really understand the meaning of "logic" or "reason".  I do spend some time talking with a liberal ex-Mormon friend of mine.  He is actually reasonable and logical.  And he has a good grasp of the facts.  I find my discussions with him to be ... edifying.  

But that can only happen when people actually understand the terms of logic and reason.  Rob clearly does not.  He just wants to win an argument.

[Rob Osborn]

50 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's why I stopped talking to people like Rob.  Not because he believes differently than I do.  But because he doesn't really understand the meaning of "logic" or "reason".  I do spend some time talking with a liberal ex-Mormon friend of mine.  He is actually reasonable and logical.  And he has a good grasp of the facts.  I find my discussions with him to be ... edifying.  

But that can only happen when people actually understand the terms of logic and reason.  Rob clearly does not.  He just wants to win an argument.

?

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks Wade.  

And when i talked about compartmentalizing and rationalization, i'm as guilty of that as anyone.  Personally, i tend to think there's more to the Book of Mormon than most people who leave are comfortably admitting (i'm looking at myself).  And at the same time way more flaws (on a totally fundamental level) than the average TCOJCOLDS apologist or member wants to admit.

You can let intellectualism whittle your beliefs right down to an animalistic-driven kind of atheism - which makes the world look like one heck of a terrible, senselessly horrific place.  

Everyone seems to draw their line in the sand and compartmentalizes and rationalizes to protect their belief/faith.  And that's much less of a bad thing than secularism makes it out to be.  Just my opinion, but it seems to come down to personal choice - usually based on an emotional feeling - and then finding evidence that corroborates that.  

Regardless, i respect people who treat others as well as you do - in or out of TCOJCOLDS.  For me, that is where the rubber meets the road - a true sign of what the religion that person adheres to has wrought within them.

I appreciate the kind words and return the sentiment. It makes it a pleasure to interact even if or when we don't come to an agreement.

There was a time when I mostly viewed things as a battle of ideas, with lines drawn and defensive strategies (compartmentalizing and rationalization) to protect positions on all sides. 

However, now, while I haven't entirely abandoned that perspective, I mostly view things as a marketplace of ideas--i.e. where things are analyzed in terms of their value or lack thereof, particularly in relation to ultimate objectives.

As such, I don';t view things like the Book of Mormon as something that needs to be protected, but rather as a means to the end in becoming more like Christ. This way, the alleged flaws aren't compartmentalized or rationalized, but weighed in the balance with the positive side of the ledger, where the net results are then compared to what other belief systems have to offer in making me a better man. Indeed, through this approach, some of the alleged flaws are rightly seen as not flaws at all, but may even be a positive--which may be mistaken as compartmentalizing and rationalization.

And, I can respect if others determine through their own respective analysis that the restored gospel may not comparatively rank as high in net value as other belief systems for coming to Christ or achieving some other ultimate objective. To which I wish the best to each and their own.

Instead of lobbing argumentative rocks and building cognitive fortresses, I advise sampling the various offerings, and by their fruits ye shall know them.  As you astutely noted, intellectualizing can only take a person so far. At some point, you need to get your head out of the computer and test drive the darn car, and see if is up to taking you where you wish to go.

The benefits in viewing things this way is that it focuses on progress (individual and collective), and lessens the risk of devolving into mutually destructive ideational tribalism or debilitating and oft counterproductive dogmatism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[lostinwater]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I appreciate the kind words and return the sentiment. It makes it a pleasure to interact even if or when we don't come to an agreement.

There was a time when I mostly viewed things as a battle of ideas, with lines drawn and defensive strategies (compartmentalizing and rationalization) to protect positions on all sides. 

However, now, while I haven't entirely abandoned that perspective, I mostly view things as a marketplace of ideas--i.e. where things are analyzed in terms of their value or lack thereof, particularly in relation to ultimate objectives.

As such, I don';t view things like the Book of Mormon as something that needs to be protected, but rather as a means to the end in becoming more like Christ. This way, the alleged flaws aren't compartmentalized or rationalized, but weighed in the balance with the positive side of the ledger, where the net results are then compared to what other belief systems have to offer in making me a better man. Indeed, through this approach, some of the alleged flaws are rightly seen as not flaws at all, but may even be a positive--which may be mistaken as compartmentalizing and rationalization.

And, I can respect if others determine through their own respective analysis that the restored gospel may not comparatively rank as high in net value as other belief systems for coming to Christ or achieving some other ultimate objective. To which I wish the best to each and their own.

Instead of lobbing argumentative rocks and building cognitive fortresses, I advise sampling the various offerings, and by their fruits ye shall know them.  As you astutely noted, intellectualizing can only take a person so far. At some point, you need to get your head out of the computer and test drive the darn car, and see if is up to taking you where you wish to go.

The benefits in viewing things this way is that it focuses on progress (individual and collective), and lessens the risk of devolving into mutually destructive ideational tribalism or debilitating and oft counterproductive dogmatism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Beautifully said.  This ought to be canonized!  How many hearts it would help heal.

[wenglund]

7 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Beautifully said.  This ought to be canonized!  How many hearts it would help heal.

I think it has been canonized, though I can't take credit. It is implicit in the two great commandments, as further delineated by the Beatitudes and a plethora of other scriptures--not a few in the Book of Mormon.

Healing and growing hearts and minds and spirits is what the gospel is all about.

Thanks, -wade Englund-

[Traveler]

I realize that initially this thread was about the flood of Noah – but it has also included some notions about the Book of Mormon.  @wenglund and @lostinwater have discussed their opinion concerning the Book of Mormon I thought to bring something else to the table.  But first let me make sure the table is set for what I am about to introduce about the Book of Mormon.  Moroni Chapter 10 is a very interesting piece of scripture – the first part of the chapter is often quoted by missionaries and members to encourage the inquiring mind to pray about this “book” for enlightenment from G-d concerning its value and purpose.

But let’s move beyond this initial impression, that so many remember for this chapter, to the rest of what is being said and going on.  The first thing I now want to put on this table is that what the reader will encounter will be the final words of a good man and prophet of G-d.  This person saw the end of his beloved society (family, friends, church, children and all else) – he is alone.  He thought he was done earlier but returned to add this final thought to those that are reading this tiny remnant of his civilization.  If you were about to die – what would be your final words to humanity?  Well Moroni Chapter 10 are Moroni’s last words.  They should be very important.

As this final chapter is read I find one particular word quite interesting – the word is “exhort”.   It is not just the power of this word it is how many times Moroni uses it – over and over again.  I submit that he is repeating something of great importance and value.  Something about common ordinary people that we meet every day – some in person and some on the internet.   There is something about people that is very important – something that many not be noticed or lost.  And if it is not noticed = if it is lost – why.

Now I will ask a question – Is Moroni concerned at all about the history of his civilization being lost or is he worried about something else being lost somewhere in the future?  Is he concerned about the history lesson of the Book of Mormon – or is there something far more important?

I submit that all those that want to turn the Book of Mormon into a literal history lesson – probably are not paying much attention to this last chapter.  Hopefully with the table set – we can all enjoy and rejoice in the feast – not just by ourselves – but with everyone that has brought their gift.

 

The Traveler

[theplains]

On 9/2/2018 at 11:02 AM, Traveler said:

Not at all.  First off - I believe there is great confusion as to what constitutes a historical document.  It is my understanding that all sacred scripture is not so much about a past history as it is intended to be prophetic rather than historic. 

What about the Book of Mormon do you believe reflects false history?

Jim

[Traveler]

14 minutes ago, theplains said:

What about the Book of Mormon do you believe reflects false history?

Jim

False history?  What are you talking about?  Let me ask you a question - would you think that a financial record of your family that was missing your mother's name or any of her income  is a false historical document?  You may get in trouble with the IRS if such a document was missing your family tax report.  But that does not mean that the information without it is "FALSE".  My question is - what constitutes a historic document?  And if a document is missing critical historical information - is it really historic?

What I am saying is that there is not enough history in the Book of Mormon to conclude elements as historic.  No one knows how the Book of Mormon fits with historical information that we have concerning any ruins or indigenous peoples in the Americas.  Since we do not have a place - how can we say it is that history?

You keep trying to add the adjective "false" and I do not understand why.  When we have a puzzle piece and do not know where it fits - we cannot say that it is a missing piece until we know where it is missing - and we cannot say it is a false puzzle piece until we know that it does not fit any possible puzzle.  What I have said over and over again - and I am beginning to think you are not listening (not sure if it is a problem you physically have with listening or because you refuse to listen).  The Book of Mormon is not intended to give anyone a window into the past - it is a divine prophetic document written in the past to guide those that worship G-d the promised guide for navigating events that occur in now and in the future.

Do you believe that G-d gives prophetic information about the future to prophets?  Do you believe G-d only cares about and gives information to Jews in Israel?  Did the Wise Men follow a star to find Christ child?  How did they know to do that? - I am suggesting it was not from any "historic" document and it was not from the Bible - Which means that the Bible is missing things that were once available to those the worshiped the True G-d.

 

The Traveler

[lostinwater]

On 9/2/2018 at 11:08 PM, wenglund said:

I think it has been canonized, though I can't take credit. It is implicit in the two great commandments, as further delineated by the Beatitudes and a plethora of other scriptures--not a few in the Book of Mormon.

 Healing and growing hearts and minds and spirits is what the gospel is all about.

Thanks, -wade Englund-

Thanks Wade.   

i guess i took from your post that you were saying that religion (any sect) is a means to the end.  And that concept is, at least in my opinion, the arch-enemy of any organized sect - because it calls into question the importance of the differences they use as reasons why everyone needs to redirect their money, effort, and time, towards that particular organization.

But i think i must have misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

[Rob Osborn]

20 hours ago, Traveler said:

False history?  What are you talking about?  Let me ask you a question - would you think that a financial record of your family that was missing your mother's name or any of her income  is a false historical document?  You may get in trouble with the IRS if such a document was missing your family tax report.  But that does not mean that the information without it is "FALSE".  My question is - what constitutes a historic document?  And if a document is missing critical historical information - is it really historic?

What I am saying is that there is not enough history in the Book of Mormon to conclude elements as historic.  No one knows how the Book of Mormon fits with historical information that we have concerning any ruins or indigenous peoples in the Americas.  Since we do not have a place - how can we say it is that history?

You keep trying to add the adjective "false" and I do not understand why.  When we have a puzzle piece and do not know where it fits - we cannot say that it is a missing piece until we know where it is missing - and we cannot say it is a false puzzle piece until we know that it does not fit any possible puzzle.  What I have said over and over again - and I am beginning to think you are not listening (not sure if it is a problem you physically have with listening or because you refuse to listen).  The Book of Mormon is not intended to give anyone a window into the past - it is a divine prophetic document written in the past to guide those that worship G-d the promised guide for navigating events that occur in now and in the future.

Do you believe that G-d gives prophetic information about the future to prophets?  Do you believe G-d only cares about and gives information to Jews in Israel?  Did the Wise Men follow a star to find Christ child?  How did they know to do that? - I am suggesting it was not from any "historic" document and it was not from the Bible - Which means that the Bible is missing things that were once available to those the worshiped the True G-d.

 

The Traveler

The secular rules of society and learning cannot dictate the principles of truth. The Book of Mormon purports to be a historical record of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. Secular opinions do not nor cannot dictate wether the BoM is true or not based on their own opinions or beliefs of history. 

[Rob Osborn]

22 hours ago, Traveler said:

I realize that initially this thread was about the flood of Noah – but it has also included some notions about the Book of Mormon.  @wenglund and @lostinwater have discussed their opinion concerning the Book of Mormon I thought to bring something else to the table.  But first let me make sure the table is set for what I am about to introduce about the Book of Mormon.  Moroni Chapter 10 is a very interesting piece of scripture – the first part of the chapter is often quoted by missionaries and members to encourage the inquiring mind to pray about this “book” for enlightenment from G-d concerning its value and purpose.

But let’s move beyond this initial impression, that so many remember for this chapter, to the rest of what is being said and going on.  The first thing I now want to put on this table is that what the reader will encounter will be the final words of a good man and prophet of G-d.  This person saw the end of his beloved society (family, friends, church, children and all else) – he is alone.  He thought he was done earlier but returned to add this final thought to those that are reading this tiny remnant of his civilization.  If you were about to die – what would be your final words to humanity?  Well Moroni Chapter 10 are Moroni’s last words.  They should be very important.

As this final chapter is read I find one particular word quite interesting – the word is “exhort”.   It is not just the power of this word it is how many times Moroni uses it – over and over again.  I submit that he is repeating something of great importance and value.  Something about common ordinary people that we meet every day – some in person and some on the internet.   There is something about people that is very important – something that many not be noticed or lost.  And if it is not noticed = if it is lost – why.

Now I will ask a question – Is Moroni concerned at all about the history of his civilization being lost or is he worried about something else being lost somewhere in the future?  Is he concerned about the history lesson of the Book of Mormon – or is there something far more important?

I submit that all those that want to turn the Book of Mormon into a literal history lesson – probably are not paying much attention to this last chapter.  Hopefully with the table set – we can all enjoy and rejoice in the feast – not just by ourselves – but with everyone that has brought their gift.

 

The Traveler

I will just state that the whole credibility of the teachings of the Book of Mormon stand or fall on if the book is an actual history or work of fiction. If it was fiction then the teachings are of no worth, our religion is of no worth and there would be no point in sticking around.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

 The Book of Mormon purports to be a historical record of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. 

Not really true - the purpose of the Book of Mormon is - according to the title page "The convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST".  Even the cover says it is a "Witness of Jesus Christ".  Where do you get the notion that it was written for the primary purpose to correct or establish history?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Not really true - the purpose of the Book of Mormon is - according to the title page "The convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST".  Even the cover says it is a "Witness of Jesus Christ".  Where do you get the notion that it was written for the primary purpose to correct or establish history?

 

The Traveler

The purpose of the Book of Mormon means nothing if it isn't a true historical account.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I will just state that the whole credibility of the teachings of the Book of Mormon stand or fall on if the book is an actual history or work of fiction. If it was fiction then the teachings are of no worth, our religion is of no worth and there would be no point in sticking around.

The problem is that you do not know what constitutes history - Mormon explicitly tells us that the History of the Nephite people was kept in other records.  This is not their history records.  You are obviously stuck in the notion that if something is not history it is fiction.  You also seem to be confused with the notion that any history record made is without errors or mistakes.  Your argument is a straw man that has little to do with historical accuracy or divine revelation from G-d.  For example just because Jesus was not a shepherd does not mean that the New Testament teachings are of no worth and there is no point sticking around notions that Jesus was the Christ.  Such arguments are absurd and mislead those that are confused.

 

The Traveler