Comparing Prophet Joseph Smith and Howard Storm Ph.D?

[DennisTate]

12 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Joesph Smith Jr was so unique that the only person you can compare him to is Mohammed. 

 

I do so hope that I don't have to be smart enough to disprove Kevin Williams B.Sc. wrong on some of his idea to fit in with the L.D.S.......

because I personally consider that what that man writes is well above my own Security Clearance Level......

and...... it does sure seem to make sense...... and gives us hope for a rapid transformation into a truly 

more peaceful world.  

(Actually.... I already know the answer to that.... I know that Latter Day Saints do not require their members to 

be able to rule out such writings as the following...... I was being somewhat facetious in order to make a point ) :

https://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html

Near-Death Experiences and Islam

By Kevin R. Williams, B.Sc.

[CV75]

21 hours ago, DennisTate said:

You got me interested in taking a look at D&C:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/2?lang=eng

This sure does remind me of what Howard Storm Ph. D. wrote that I quote in posts #2 and #6 above....

Hopefully he will accept the benefits of the keys when he receives that opportunity!

[DennisTate]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Hopefully he will accept the benefits of the keys when he receives that opportunity!

Hopefully... I just got an exceptional statement on this topic in another forum:

 

 

Quote

Sheldon J. Lawrence Howard Storm's is among the best NDEs I've ever read. He is the real deal. You can probably guess that I think they were seeing the same place. Swedenborg as well. A lot of people fret about apparent contradictions between NDEs or between NDEs and gospel principles. I just don't see it as a problem. First, it's arrogant and naive to think we've got it all figured out in the Church. Second, the afterlife is a diverse place with different regions, societies, and levels, so of course experiences will vary. Third, experiences will be interpreted through a person's individual worldview.

Mr. Lawrence is the author of:
https://www.amazon.com/Hearts-Fathers-story-Heaven-after-ebook/dp/B01IYJMR7W/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1534708828&sr=8-2&keywords=hearts of the fathers

[CV75]

12 hours ago, DennisTate said:

Hopefully... I just got an exceptional statement on this topic in another forum:

Mr. Lawrence is the author of:
https://www.amazon.com/Hearts-Fathers-story-Heaven-after-ebook/dp/B01IYJMR7W/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1534708828&sr=8-2&keywords=hearts of the fathers

Who will share the restored Gospel with him? Just as Parley P. Pratt after his revelations, and the Restorationists in Joseph Smith's day, he will need to receive all the covenants and ordinances Lord has prepared for His children through the keys.

[DennisTate]

On 8/20/2018 at 10:30 AM, CV75 said:

Who will share the restored Gospel with him? Just as Parley P. Pratt after his revelations, and the Restorationists in Joseph Smith's day, he will need to receive all the covenants and ordinances Lord has prepared for His children through the keys.

I am sorry..... I don't know much about that yet......

but I did run into an astonishing NDE the other day that I believe should be shared all through the Latter Day Saint community......

and those of you who have friends who are Roman Catholic nuns will probably want to share this with them.  After the 35 minute mark

you may be in for something of a shocker!  (Then again....... maybe you already know about this)?!

 

 

[DennisTate]

On 8/20/2018 at 10:30 AM, CV75 said:

Who will share the restored Gospel with him? Just as Parley P. Pratt after his revelations, and the Restorationists in Joseph Smith's day, he will need to receive all the covenants and ordinances Lord has prepared for His children through the keys.

To give you a specific answer to your question..... I have something in mind that could well lead to Mr. and Mrs. Anne Romney

meeting with Howard Storm Ph. D. themselves...........

This discussion is in the "Creative Corner" of this secular forum..... so has a little different flavour than

if it was..... for example.... in the Religion and Philosophy forum:

 

"Mitt Romney, The White Horse President Prophecy and North Korea."

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/mitt-romney-the-white-horse-president-prophecy-and-north-korea.535487/page-2#post-1069536933

[wenglund]

On 8/17/2018 at 11:43 AM, Vort said:

After reflection, I don't agree -- which I find very interesting. Effectively, the two seem to be the same question, but which one is asked makes a difference.

Whence came Joseph Smith's revelations? If from God, then we have no worries. Even if something the Prophet revealed appears to be wrong, we can be sure it is not. Maybe our background understanding is deficient, or maybe our language is too weak, or whatever. We can truly have absolute confidence.

By the same token, if Joseph's revelations came from another source, they are not reliable, even if they happen to be true or accurate. If Joseph generated the insights himself, then however brilliant they might have been, they are just the products of human reason. And if the source was nefarious...as Shakespeare taught us, the devil can cite scripture for his purposes.

I agree. Perhaps it is a levels distinction. What you say is correct in terms of the source for foundational rbeliefs, whereas I was speaking more in terms of the source for everyday and practical beliefs.

To me, it is the difference between beliefs derived from the scriptures, on the one hand,  and beliefs derived out of the best books (Article of Faith 13)  Affirming he source is key to the former, but not all that pertinent to the latter.

My intent in drawing this distinction is to place an emphasis on canon while leaving room for other sources of belief. For my part, I am not all that intterested in NDE because there is enough in the scriptures and other authoritative sources in the church to fill my plate, though I can respect that others may find NDEs useful.

For those who may find NDEs useful, the question then becomes, which do you rely on when NDEs conflict with the scriptures and/or the beliiefs of the Church?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DennisTate]

On 8/26/2018 at 1:26 PM, wenglund said:

I agree. Perhaps it is a levels distinction. What you say is correct in terms of the source for foundational rbeliefs, whereas I was speaking more in terms of the source for everyday and practical beliefs.

To me, it is the difference between beliefs derived from the scriptures, on the one hand,  and beliefs derived out of the best books (Article of Faith 13)  Affirming he source is key to the former, but not all that pertinent to the latter.

My intent in drawing this distinction is to place an emphasis on canon while leaving room for other sources of belief. For my part, I am not all that intterested in NDE because there is enough in the scriptures and other authoritative sources in the church to fill my plate, though I can respect that others may find NDEs useful.

For those who may find NDEs useful, the question then becomes, which do you rely on when NDEs conflict with the scriptures and/or the beliiefs of the Church?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Personally... I feel that modern near death experience accounts fulfill several promises by Messiah Yeshua Jesus so......

they may be more easily understood than scripture...... partly due to their being in the language of our time period....... and the experiencer to at least some degree...... takes our culture into consideration........this is in the future tense....

John 16:25

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/could-rabbi-alon-anava-be-more-like-rabbi-yeshua-jesus-than-any-christian-on-earth.539587/

Edited August 28, 2018 by DennisTate
add comments

[JohnsonJones]

There are several levels of NDE's.

For genuine NDE's I have yet to actually find something that verifiably conflicts with LDS teachings.  Normally there may be a different way of viewing what we might think about, but from a bigger picture it really doesn't contradict.

On the otherhand, there is an entire New Age Movement which feels that Out of Body experiences and other very odd and almost occult type ideas are the same as NDE's have a LOT of things that seem to directly counter LDS thought.

For the former, it can be interesting to read what happens at times. 

For the latter, I view it as either all fiction or inspired by forces OTHER than that which we normally consider holy at times...especially when it is an OoBE that they are referring to and trying to equate as the same as a true NDE.

[Just_A_Guy]

Am I the only one who sees this thread topic and thinks “why in the HECK are we talking about Howard Stern, and since when does he have a PhD?”

[DennisTate]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Am I the only one who sees this thread topic and thinks “why in the HECK are we talking about Howard Stern, and since when does he have a PhD?”

No........  Howard Storm Ph. D.... .the guy who had a near death experience back in 1985.

The head of the Art Department of a USA university.  Definitely not Howard StERN.

 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html

 

[DennisTate]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

There are several levels of NDE's.

For genuine NDE's I have yet to actually find something that verifiably conflicts with LDS teachings.  Normally there may be a different way of viewing what we might think about, but from a bigger picture it really doesn't contradict.

On the otherhand, there is an entire New Age Movement which feels that Out of Body experiences and other very odd and almost occult type ideas are the same as NDE's have a LOT of things that seem to directly counter LDS thought.

For the former, it can be interesting to read what happens at times. 

For the latter, I view it as either all fiction or inspired by forces OTHER than that which we normally consider holy at times...especially when it is an OoBE that they are referring to and trying to equate as the same as a true NDE.

Extremely well said......

A valid Life Review is one of the important traits of a true NDE.....

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a03

From the Catholic Bible:

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/30006.htm

[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls."

 

Hebrews 9:27

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[wenglund]

On 8/28/2018 at 1:18 PM, DennisTate said:

Personally... I feel that modern near death experience accounts fulfill several promises by Messiah Yeshua Jesus so......

they may be more easily understood than scripture...... partly due to their being in the language of our time period....... and the experiencer to at least some degree...... takes our culture into consideration........this is in the future tense....

John 16:25

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/could-rabbi-alon-anava-be-more-like-rabbi-yeshua-jesus-than-any-christian-on-earth.539587/

I suppose that is possible, but I believe this prophesy is fulfilled individually by living a gospel-filled life rather than from modern NDE of a relatively few other people. In other words, we see the things of God more plain by becoming godly:. 1Cor 13:

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[DennisTate]

On 8/16/2018 at 8:37 PM, Jane_Doe said:

LDS believe that ALL Truth comes from God.  Receiving this Truth is not limited to just people in His Church, but ALL men are entitled to receive it-- the Father gives Truth to those that earnestly ask.  Storm's account might indeed by revelation for him (I am not in a position to judge that).

Now all that being said, different people have different roles/things they do in this life.  I believe that Joseph Smith was called to be a Prophet of God, hold that formal office in God's Church, and lead in that role.  Storm is not in that role-- which neither am I.  Different roles for different people.

 

 

That all makes your poll hard to answer: because yes this Storm dude could indeed have received revelation, but that doesn't put him in the role of Prophet of God the way Joseph Smith was.

I am seriously impressed.........

I just found out a few days ago that Latter Day Saints already believe that they will spearhead the

rebuilding of the Ezekiel Temple Complex!
 

 

[DennisTate]

On 8/30/2018 at 3:10 PM, wenglund said:

I suppose that is possible, but I believe this prophesy is fulfilled individually by living a gospel-filled life rather than from modern NDE of a relatively few other people. In other words, we see the things of God more plain by becoming godly:. 1Cor 13:

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

True...... and I also believe that the whole earth is all set up for a massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit

as Christians and Jews come together around the rebuilding of the Ezekiel Temple complex.  

Because Latter Day Saints already recognize near death experience accounts as being valuable.......

you are in an excellent position to reach people that other churches.....who only quite the Bible... .will have trouble reaching!

[goor_de]

On 8/17/2018 at 1:13 AM, DennisTate said:

I would like to do a poll..... .I think I know the answer already but I personally have similar reasons for

altering my life radically after reading many near death experience accounts.  I am going to use former ATheist Howard Storm Ph. D.

as our example because I truly was blown away by his book..... My Descent Into Death. 

 

Would you say that former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. received his astounding information from the same source as 

Prophet Joseph Smith?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/gods-compelling-witness-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

 

they are lying spirits
99% truth, 1% lie
I think
these ghosts are facing the death barrier
shortly before death
they influence the mind.
Like Joseph Smith praying in the grove

[DennisTate]

3 hours ago, goor_de said:

they are lying spirits
99% truth, 1% lie
I think
these ghosts are facing the death barrier
shortly before death
they influence the mind.
Like Joseph Smith praying in the grove

That is an interesting comment........

After years of researching this topic I concluded that if there is a valid Life Review........

that leads to a transformation in the life of the person having the NDE... then

certain promises in scripture have been met and the NDE .... is not merely an out of the body experience........

that in my opinion is at a lower level than the full fledged NDE that includes a Life Review.

Howard Storm Ph. D.'s Life Review... fits with several scriptures......

 

Hebrews 9:27

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a03 

3. The Life Review of Howard Storm

 

 

and in the Catholic Bible.....

6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls." (Baruch 6:6)

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/30006.htm

Edited September 24, 2018 by DennisTate
add comment

[goor_de]

10 minutes ago, DennisTate said:

 

3. The Life Review of Howard Storm

 

 

and in the Catholic Bible.....

6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls." (Baruch 6:6)

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/30006.htm

something else-
the man in coma seems to be more susceptible to ghosts than the watchman.
the impact of the luciferic spirit is stronger.
I think the human being has a "chip" in which the whole life is stored ..

[DennisTate]

22 hours ago, goor_de said:

something else-
the man in coma seems to be more susceptible to ghosts than the watchman.
the impact of the luciferic spirit is stronger.
I think the human being has a "chip" in which the whole life is stored ..

Yes....... near death experiencer Rabbi Alon Anava has stated that there are 17 angels with every human......

who have the capabilities of DVD and IMAX and much more...... and they videotape every instant of our lives.......

from 17 different angles............

We humans may actually be much more important to G-d than we tend to imagine?!

 

[goor_de]

7 minutes ago, DennisTate said:

Yes....... near death experiencer Rabbi Alon Anava has stated that there are 17 angels with every human......

who have the capabilities of DVD and IMAX and much more...... and they videotape every instant of our lives.......

from 17 different angles............

We humans may actually be much more important to G-d than we tend to imagine?!

 

No, I think it's a mind chip.
nobody is watching
certainly not 17 angels

if you die, the chip will expire

Sorry for short answers, but it takes a lot of energy

Edited September 25, 2018 by goor_de

[DennisTate]

1 hour ago, goor_de said:

No, I think it's a mind chip.
nobody is watching
certainly not 17 angels

if you die, the chip will expire

Sorry for short answers, but it takes a lot of energy

I used to believe in the Soul Sleep doctrine.......

(which would sound somewhat like your idea of the chip expiring).. .but then I read the NDE account of 

Dr. George Ritchie...... and I changed my mind!

 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html
 

Quote

 

b. His Guided Tour of the Earthbound Realm with Jesus

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's tour of the Earthbound Realm: Then Jesus begins to take Ritchie on a journey through various realms of the afterlife. They fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. They witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to grab a cigarette from the workers who were oblivious to her presence. This woman had died severely addicted to cigarettes and was now cut off from the one thing she desperately desired most.   Ritchie realizes how the spirits in these realms immediately know the thoughts of other spirits around them. This is the reason they tend to group together with other spirits. It is too threatening to be around others who knew and disagreed with their thoughts.   Jesus leads Ritchie to a house somewhere on Earth where he is shown the spirit of a young man following his living family members around and begging them for forgiveness. But the family members are completely unaware of his presence. Jesus tells Ritchie the young man committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."   They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over.

 

[goor_de]

11 minutes ago, DennisTate said:

I used to believe in the Soul Sleep doctrine.......

(which would sound somewhat like your idea of the chip expiring).. .but then I read the NDE account of 

Dr. George Ritchie...... and I changed my mind!

 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html
 

 

Jesus did not appear but a deceiver
they are lying spirits

 

for example
Christ has shown us that he had to go through the death of his physical self for the resurrection of his spiritual self to take place

that is no teaching of Jesus

[DennisTate]

On 8/16/2018 at 8:37 PM, Jane_Doe said:

LDS believe that ALL Truth comes from God.  Receiving this Truth is not limited to just people in His Church, but ALL men are entitled to receive it-- the Father gives Truth to those that earnestly ask.  Storm's account might indeed by revelation for him (I am not in a position to judge that).

Now all that being said, different people have different roles/things they do in this life.  I believe that Joseph Smith was called to be a Prophet of God, hold that formal office in God's Church, and lead in that role.  Storm is not in that role-- which neither am I.  Different roles for different people.

 

 

That all makes your poll hard to answer: because yes this Storm dude could indeed have received revelation, but that doesn't put him in the role of Prophet of God the way Joseph Smith was.

 

I listened to this video two times this morning......
I was truly impressed......

Many of the new details on those events fit very well with near death experience accounts.....   

 

 

 

[DennisTate]

Another article on Howard Storm:

 

https://rationalfaiths.com/tag/howard-storm/?fbclid=IwAR1u2eyfNKVDz6anhP_zMHFaltSSnYI_2VtMfN4CMmWE1QyCWg_Vl-Yh6_0

 

 

Quote

 

On Hell, Aliens, and a Near Death Experience

by Michelle Wiener | Oct 26, 2016 | 

 

 

Quote

 

What I found most interesting while I was conversing with Rev. Storm were the ways in which his Near Death Experience coincides with Mormon doctrine, and yet, Rev. Storm is a retired United Church of Christ pastor.

For starters, there are different levels of heaven. Many levels – just as there are many different levels of hell; “the real joy of heaven is God’s love, which far surpasses anything,” whereas the real torment of hell “is emotional, psychological torment.” (Michelle Wiener)

 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by DennisTate
to add title... and a quotation...

[DennisTate]

Last week two LDS missionaries asked me to read 3 Nephi 11...
I read it a few moments ago

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/11?lang=eng

Near death experiencer Kevin Zadai had experiences similar to what the Prophet Joseph Smith reported in 3 Nephi 11..... so did author Rick Joyner who wrote The Final Quest and The Call........    my point is that there is no way that I could dogmatically rule out Prophet Joseph Smith being shown something like this......