Conditions of the Spirit World

[classylady]

On 10/30/2018 at 7:42 PM, Dantheman said:

Over 20 years ago I married a beautiful woman from Peru who came from an active LDS family. But little did I know that there would be gospel doctrine mixed with spiritualism mixed into my in-laws belief system hat would come up that would be very difficult for me to manage on my own. This discussion is to help find some valid gospel centered resources and answers to these questions. My focus is on the conditions of the spirit world after death. 

From Duane S. Crowther's book 'Life Everlasting"A definitive Study of Life After Death'. Page 236 Heading - Evil spirits sometimes wander on Earth indiscriminately; righteous spirits return only for a purpose. 

"Spirits who reside in paradise are carefully organized and controlled through principles of righteousness. They are not free to wander about the earth without an assigned purpose. In contrast, the spirits in spirit prison are able to "wander aimlessly, not knowing where to go or what to do until they accept the gospel. Those spirits who are under Satan's influence are given ample opportunity to haunt the earth and create whatever mischief and evil they choose. Elder Parley P. Pratt wrote that. Many spirits of the departed, who are unhappy, linger in lonely wretchedness about the earth, and in the air, and especially about their ancient homesteads, and the places rendered dear to them by the memory of the former scenes."

Crowther goes on to quote more from Parely P. Pratt's book, Key to the Science of Theology. Which was published by the church up till somewhere about 1912 Which also contains for me a very surprising chapter on how the spirits of the dead can overtake and possess a mortal body, and that they are the cause of much demonic possession. 

This was all news to me and I can't wrap my head around this. Listed below are my basic fundamental understanding of what I understand the Gospel to be with regards to conditions of the post mortal spirit world and un-embodied spirits in this world.  

• There is a veil that separates this life from the next life. 
• Only priesthood power has the ability to allow  passage through a veil. 
• The spirit world is divided into Paradise and Prison. The prison is as much literal as figurative in that those in spirit prison would have to be limited in their sphere of movement and association because they were not preached the Gospel until after Christ had died on the cross. 
• The only un-embodied spirits roaming the earth on our side of the veil are Satan and his hosts. 
• That only messengers from God that visit from the pre-mortal and post-mortal realms can do so only because they are authorized by priesthood power. 

What I want to know is, are my above statements correct or not. And if not what authoritative Gospel resources can help to clarify.

I have been doing some research since I read your post. I can find very little information. The only info I can find is by Bruce R. McConkie. In his book Mormon Doctrine, he states that most devils, demons, or evil spirits are those spirit beings cast out of heaven for rebellion. So far, that agrees with what you state. However, under Spiritualism in his book, as he talks about mediums and seances, he states “In most instances, however, such spirits as manifest themselves are probably the demons or devils who were cast out of heaven for rebellion. [and then he says] Such departed spirits as become involved in these spiritualistic orgies would obviously be the spirits of wicked and depraved persons who because of their previous wickedness in mortality had wholly subjected themselves to the dominion of Lucifer. Righteous spirits would have nothing but contempt and pity for the attempts of mediums to make contact with them.”...

So, according to him there could be wicked departed spirits who interact with the living. I know his book isn’t authorized by the church, but I have great respect for Bruce R. McConkie. I have always been under the understanding that wicked departed spirits could interact with the living. I just have no authoritative documentation. All I know is that we should not dabble in the occult in any manner. It is dangerous and will harm our spiritual selves, and possibly our physical selves.

[askandanswer]

Don't the 3000 year old pyramids sit somewhere out in a sandy desert?

[Stargater53]

On 10/30/2018 at 9:42 PM, Dantheman said:

Over 20 years ago I married a beautiful woman from Peru who came from an active LDS family. But little did I know that there would be gospel doctrine mixed with spiritualism mixed into my in-laws belief system that would come up that would be very difficult for me to manage on my own.

Interesting discussion. But I'm curious about your opening statement. Are you still married to this woman from Peru? And when you said they mixed spiritualism into the gospel, what sort of spiritualism are you talking about? Is it still a problem? And is the spiritualism of a nature that you would consider dangerous to your own religious views or to your relationship with God?

From my reading of near death experiences, I believe that when you first pass on, you find yourself above your body looking down on it. At that moment you are free to go go anywhere in the world that you wish until you are taken into the spirit world. I believe you are free to attend your own funeral and listen to the stark relief of those who owed you money, as well as your friends and family. Once you are taken to  the other side of the veil, you are thus restrained from visitations to the Earth unless and until you are sent, at which point you become an angel. 

Also, what many don't know...and should know...is that you are being watched. Always. Evil spirits linger in one dimension, angelic beings in another. But both can see you all the time. And the righteous enjoy a substantial amount of protection from the wicked spirits that, without the protection, would strike at your spiritual and physical health until they could enter your body and control it. And they do the latter by influence over your spirit. I'm uncertain as to the extent of the control, but I recall the incident in the New Testament, where the evil spirits wanted to go into the bodies of swine. Did they intend for the swine to go over the cliff? Most likely not. It happened, I believe, because neither the swine nor the spirits could establish total control. So like an airplane that loses control, they plummeted to their doom. Many humans, when possessed, know they have much control over what they say or do, but that this control is constantly being struggled for, so the behavior becomes erratic and unsure. 

There was a couple on my mission who invited my partner and me over for dinner. He wasn't a member, but she was. But she wasn't active. During dinner, she began behaving in a bizarre manner. This was exhibited by loud and inappropriate laughter and strange statements. This was accompanied by strange movements and the atmosphere was charged with a negative energy that caused the hair on the back of our necks to rise. We were far too young to know what to do and my senior companion soon determined that we should beat an early retreat and cancel our discussion. As we left, the husband insisted that he accompany us to our car. As we popped the trunk, he told us that he was very much alarmed and concerned for his own safety by being around his wife. Indeed, it was her behavior that caused him to ask for the discussions. Perhaps if this woman could be returned to her religion, the strange behavior would cease. So we went to the Bishop and laid it all out to him. The missionary discussions were then turned over to the Ward Seventy and the Bishop set up a meeting with them. 

I don't know what happened and the Bishop was not forthcoming with the information, but we noticed the following Sunday that both the woman and her husband were at church smiling broadly and acting perfectly normal. We shook hands with them and they couldn't have been nicer, and the man (a Catholic) thanked us profusely for sending over the Bishop. Whatever happened, the oppressive feeling was gone and replaced with a positive feeling of affection between them. A little over a month later, the husband was baptized. And to think, it was all because of evil spirits. It's like Brigham Young said, when people are robbed of the Spirit of God, they lose the ability to act in their own best interest. (I've noticed this in a lot of elections where even latter-day saints enthusiastically vote for people who are for gutting the Constitution. Some of these people, in our first Ward, complained when we had a change of bishops. They were outspoken in their political beliefs, and now complained that it wasn't the new Bishop's "turn" to be bishop, and that it was supposed to be another man who should have been selected. We were new members of the church at that time (1971), but we knew enough that our mouths fairly dropped from our faces.)

Anyway, please tell us more about your wife's beliefs if she is still your wife, and if you've reached an agreement with her. When I was in Mexico a number of years ago, I was told that when the Spanish came, they forced many into Catholicism, and every Sunday they would go to church and take Communion (Sacrament). Then on Wednesday nights, they would go into the fields and build a fire and practice their ancient religion. It's like the old saying, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

 

 

[Stargater53]

On 11/25/2018 at 2:35 AM, classylady said:

I know his book isn’t authorized by the church, but I have great respect for Bruce R. McConkie. I have always been under the understanding that wicked departed spirits could interact with the living. I just have no authoritative documentation. All I know is that we should not dabble in the occult in any manner. It is dangerous and will harm our spiritual selves, and possibly our physical selves.

I know Elder McConkie knew a lot about the scriptures, but not necessarily much about evil spirits. If you want to know what the early brethren taught, get an Amazon Kindle (they're cheap, as of this writing, $50 for one and $90 for two) and then buy the electronic version of Journal of Discourses. This is a very expensive volume if bought in hard copy, but very inexpensive if purchased in electronic form (plus you can do searches). In fact, it's the best way of collecting an enviable church library without spending a lot of money. But if reading these early discourses and writings, treat them like the Apocrypha, with prayer. 

Remember the early brethren who went to the U.K. to open it up to missionary work? As the incident came to a close, the evil spirits were commanded to depart. In Orson Whitney's account, he wrote: 

The last imp that left turned around to me as he was going out and said, as if to apologize, and appease my determined opposition to them, ‘I never said anything against you!’ I replied to him thus: ‘It matters not me whether you have or have not; you are a liar from the beginning! In the name of Jesus Christ depart!’ He immediately left, and the room was clear. That closed the scene of devils for the time.”

To me this indicates that like anyone, there are those who are zealous in their work and others who are not so zealous. I know nothing about such things, but it seems to me that this imp wanted to remain because he hadn't taken part in the attack but had only been a bystander. But by being a bystander and doing nothing, and because he had made his decision on who to follow in premortality, he had in essence made his decision. Had he followed Yahweh in our premortal existence, he would have fared far better than his associates. 

Joseph Fielding, who was present during the attack, witnessed the exchange between Elder Hyde and the imp. He wrote: 

They however kept their distances, but turned their heads toward Bro. Hyde; one looking at him said distinctly, but with a murmuring tone, slowly demure, ‘I never spoke against you.’ He said there seemed to be [a] legion of them. He was alarmed, but very much disgusted. He could scarcely bear to speak of them.

Brigham Young said that if our eyes were opened and we could see the evil spirits that were aligned against us, that we would lose heart and be terrified. (He was speaking of those who were on the plains and who opposed them on their westward trek to the mountains of Salt Lake City. And if those of you with Kindles buy a book entitled, Gems For the Young Folks, you will find additional stories.) Brigham also said:

The spirits that afflict us and plant disease in our bodies, pain in the system, and finally death, have control over us so far as the flesh is concerned. But when the spirit is unlocked from the body it is free from the power of death and Satan; and when that body comes up again, it also, with the spirit, will gain the victory over death, hell, and the grave.

Again, there are many books available from Amazon. In fact, I'm now reading the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon with no verses. It's an incredible experience and it's a way of reading the Book of Mormon as it was read by the earliest converts of the church. They would get the book and read it by candlelight into the wee hours of the morning, and it's available on Amazon. 

These Kindles (and other tablets, Android and Apple) make great gifts and the larger 8-inch and 10-inch tablets are perfect for reading. And no candlelight required! They're great for movies. 

 

 

[pam]

@Stargater53   Are we spamming now for Kindles?     Do you get a commission for each one of us that purchases one now? 

 

 

[Stargater53]

14 minutes ago, pam said:

@Stargater53   Are we spamming now for Kindles? Do you get a commission for each one of us that purchases one now? 

No!!!! Don't get me kicked off the board for that!

Actually, seriously, you can get any Android or Apple and get a great church library too, but you'll pay a lot more.

Kindles are large, easy to read and are inexpensive, largely because they are subsidized by advertisers and by Amazon themselves. So when you buy one of these cheap Kindles, you're getting them at cost or slightly below because Amazon thinks you'll buy movies and other videos. A fifty dollar Kindle won't give you a lot, especially with 16 gbytes, but it will let you read books comfortably. If you can afford getting a better device, go for it. But for the money, it's not a bad deal, especially if you want to get a church library of books you can read anywhere in your house/home. 

If I could afford an Apple, I'd probably go with one of those. Or a Samsung. But again, Kindle is a good low cost alternative. And if we can put together a list of good books to add our to our libraries, we should do that. 

Cheers!

[pam]

33 minutes ago, Stargater53 said:

No!!!! Don't get me kicked off the board for that!

Actually, seriously, you can get any Android or Apple and get a great church library too, but you'll pay a lot more.

Kindles are large, easy to read and are inexpensive, largely because they are subsidized by advertisers and by Amazon themselves. So when you buy one of these cheap Kindles, you're getting them at cost or slightly below because Amazon thinks you'll buy movies and other videos. A fifty dollar Kindle won't give you a lot, especially with 16 gbytes, but it will let you read books comfortably. If you can afford getting a better device, go for it. But for the money, it's not a bad deal, especially if you want to get a church library of books you can read anywhere in your house/home. 

If I could afford an Apple, I'd probably go with one of those. Or a Samsung. But again, Kindle is a good low cost alternative. And if we can put together a list of good books to add our to our libraries, we should do that. 

Cheers!

Haha I was just messing with you.