Why Are You Here? -for Non-lds Christians

[ktfords]

Your "fact" proved to be wrong. I was giving you a friendly warning, it's up to you to listen to it.

If you don't believe any of the LDS teachings, why would you want to be a member? Let me guess where this is going. Because we don't believe in the Creeds we can't be Christian. Lame argument. I believe in Jesus CHrist and that he is my Redeemer. Whether you think I'm Christian or not I could care less.

Have a good day!!!!

Then why would you want to be Christian when you do not believe the main principles of Christianity? Like the trinity and saved by grace not Works. Works should be the fruit of the spirit not the root.

What is lame is that you think you are Christian just because you have Christ in your name of your church. It is clear that J Smith said all other churches are apostate. How can you suddenly be Christian? See you can be a Christian without believing the fundamentals, yet, I can't be a mormon. Have you ever considered this could offend the

Christian community? Oh yeah, were nothing to you. What if the Christians started calling themselves mormons, how upset would you get?

[Canuck Mormon]

Then why would you want to be Christian when you do not believe the main principles of Christianity? Like the trinity and saved by grace not Works. Works should be the fruit of the spirit not the root.

What is lame is that you think you are Christian just because you have Christ in your name of your church. It is clear that J Smith said all other churches are apostate. How can you suddenly be Christian? See you can be a Christian without believing the fundamentals, yet, I can't be a mormon. Have you ever considered this could offend the

Christian community? Oh yeah, were nothing to you. What if the Christians started calling themselves mormons, how upset would you get?

Go for it, call yourself a mormon. It makes NO difference to my salvation. By the way, you should read the rules of the board. Statements like the one I've highlighted will not be tolerated. For this I am raising your warning level, next time you will be banned.

Have a good day.

[ktfords]

Go for it, call yourself a mormon. It makes NO difference to my salvation. By the way, you should read the rules of the board. Statements like the one I've highlighted will not be tolerated. For this I am raising your warning level, next time you will be banned.

Have a good day.

"What is lame is that you think you are Christian just because you have Christ in your name of your church. It is clear that J Smith said all other churches are apostate. How can you suddenly be Christian? See you can be a Christian without believing the fundamentals, yet, I can't be a mormon. Have you ever considered this could offend the

Christian community? Oh yeah, were nothing to you. What if the Christians started calling themselves mormons, how upset would you get?"

I don't understand why the statement above upsets you like this. Below is directly out of JS first vision from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints website. This is from Joseph Smith himself.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

Go ahead and ban me if you want, the above statement is directly taken from the LDS website.

You seemed to overlook the other important question..

Have you ever considered this could offend the

Christian community? Oh yeah, were nothing to you. What if the Christians started calling themselves mormons, how upset would you get?"

[Canuck Mormon]

My apologies, I misread the statement.

Let me ask you, are you offended that Protestants call themselves Christian or that Baptists call themselves Christian. Why are you upset that Mormons refer to themselves as Christian? It's just a name.

You can call yourself a mormon, baptist, evangelical, whatever. I wouldn't care. It's what you believe, and that's all that matters.

That's my last word on the subject.

Have a good day.:)

[ktfords]

My apologies, I misread the statement.

Let me ask you, are you offended that Protestants call themselves Christian or that Baptists call themselves Christian. Why are you upset that Mormons refer to themselves as Christian? It's just a name.

You can call yourself a mormon, baptist, evangelical, whatever. I wouldn't care. It's what you believe, and that's all that matters.

That's my last word on the subject.

That's good, were both teachable. :)http://www.lds.net/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

:)

Protestants, Christians, and Baptist do not declare all other creeds are an abomination. This is the main point in JS's first vision.

You say it is just a name. Here in SLC Utah, a local company used the name moroni on a t-shirt. He had lawyers from the LDS, calling him, threatening him with a lawsuit.

The LDS church does not think it is just a name.

Can you please answer this question, a simple yes or no will do.

Have you ever considered this could offend the Christian community?

Thanks

[Canuck Mormon]

My apologies, I misread the statement.

Let me ask you, are you offended that Protestants call themselves Christian or that Baptists call themselves Christian. Why are you upset that Mormons refer to themselves as Christian? It's just a name.

You can call yourself a mormon, baptist, evangelical, whatever. I wouldn't care. It's what you believe, and that's all that matters.

That's my last word on the subject.

That's good, were both teachable. :)http://www.lds.net/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

:)

Protestants, Christians, and Baptist do not declare all other creeds are an abomination. This is the main point in JS's first vision.

You say it is just a name. Here in SLC Utah, a local company used the name moroni on a t-shirt. He had lawyers from the LDS, calling him, threatening him with a lawsuit.

The LDS church does not think it is just a name.

Can you please answer this question, a simple yes or no will do.

Have you ever considered this could offend the Christian community?

Thanks

This is true, they just call the Mormons an abomination. To answer your question, NO, I never considered it. Does it offend you that I consider and call myself a Christian? Why is your interpretaion of Chirtianity so limited? Didn't Christ welcome ALL? Of course this is completely off topic for this thread.

Back to the topic:

Why do you come here, ktfords?

[AnthonyB]

ktfords,

I come from a non-LDS/Mormon Christian faith tradition that also believes that creeds are a mark of apostasy. That the trinity is an extra-biblical doctrine that is not binding on believers. (As long as they present their beliefs in biblical terms.) Would you exclude me from Christ kingdom as well?

This is an LDS site, we non-LDS are guest here, I think it appropriate to act as I percieve a guest should.

Anyway I'd love to here the answer to the topic of this thread from you. Why are you posting on an LDS forum?

[prisonchaplain]

I'm wondering if we would solve this whole discussion about who can claim to be Christian summing up the converation thus:

Non-LDS Christianity: You LDS have beliefs that many of us would label apostate.

LDS Christianity: Funny, we feel the same way about you and your historic creeds.

Great! Now, let us continue the discussion with all the love and discernment Jesus would have us muster, by the help of the Holy Spirit.

[Canuck Mormon]

Well put PC, as always.

:clap::clap:

[ktfords]

ktfords,

I come from a non-LDS/Mormon Christian faith tradition that also believes that creeds are a mark of apostasy. That the trinity is an extra-biblical doctrine that is not binding on believers. (As long as they present there beliefs in biblical terms.) So I take it you'd place me outside Christ's kingdom as well.

This is an LDS site, we non-LDS are guest here, I think it appropriate to act as I percieve a guest should.

Anyway I'd love to here the answer to the topic of this thread from you. Why are you posting on an LDS forum?

Why am I here? I Talk to a lot of the Mormons here in the Salt Lake area and it is really frustrating when the only answer you can get is "I just know it's true or I have a burning in my bosom". Or another popular one is "I really don't know any of my church's history".

If a person asked a question about the LDS faith here in utah, right off the bat, you are called anti or a mormon basher. These questions asked are facts or truths found on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in the doctrine. Yet, no one will stand up and answer.

Daily, you hear on the radio and tv, "we are Christians" or "aren't we Christian enough"

I don't go around telling the whole world Im anything, I would only tell if asked. Here, of course, it is pretty much shoved down your throat and when you ask questions, there is usually no answer or you are now a mormon basher. If the mormons what to repeatedly broadcast over the news and radio, that they are Christian, go for it. But, expect to be questioned when the LDS doctrine states differently and in the past, the LDS would not even associate with any other religion.

In short, it is really nice to have conversation back and forth, and not look over and see glazed eyes. This is no different than having LDS missionaries at my house, except, I am asking questions directed at the LDS church.

Ps. What religion are you?

[ztodd]

...

I don't understand why the statement above upsets you like this. Below is directly out of JS first vision from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints website. This is from Joseph Smith himself.

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

Go ahead and ban me if you want, the above statement is directly taken from the LDS website.

One important thing we notice here is that it was not Joseph Smith declaring all the creeds to be wrong. It was the Lord. I personally don't feel the need to defend what the Lord Himself said. I'm sure He had a perfectly wise reason for answering Joseph in that way.

I know it really cuts to the heart of things to think that the Lord declared all the creeds of men in 1820 to be "an abomination in his sight"... but whether you like it or not, whether you can accept it or not, the truth is that the Lord said it. Accept it or reject it - it's your decision.

Having said that- I hope people don't take it personally in such a way that they think the Lord is condemning them for joining one of the non-LDS churches of today. Our Father is perfectly just and merciful- He understands and knows when we act in the best way that we know how, and when we're sincerely trying to follow His will. Just make sure you are doing that - namely, doing your best to follow Him.

[prisonchaplain]

I suppose that since my church was officially inaugurated in 1914 that Joseph Smith's report about the churches of his day would not necessarily apply to mine. :-)

[AnthonyB]

ktfords,

Thank you for your reply. I think you'll find a lot of very capable LDS on this board who are capable of expressing and defending their take on Christianity. (Without picking favourites too much, I find that a-train and CrimsonKairos are the ones who usually make the most sense to me.) I think you'll find in any church grouping people with simple faith, which is more emotionally or relationally based then intellectually based. I would presume this is just as likely in the LDS, as in the group your a member of. It is encumbant on non-LDS Christian to remember that even though we disagree with the LDS on doctrinal matters, I don't think we should ever seek to destory their faith in Christ as saviour and Lord.

As for my religion, I would just say Christian, I am happy to list the groups and people who have influenced me over the years (if you have a need to know) but as for what I profess to be I like to leave at Christain rather then claim to be of specific party within the church.

As for God's (reported) words to Joseph Smith, I think you have to look at them in context to the time and the way Christians were treating each other then. Many groups of Christians at them time believed that their creed was right and that all others were emphatically wrong. Many churches were riven with splits and parties each one looking suspiciously and without charity at the believers in the other groups. Unless you could conform to the particular groups very narrow creed then they threw you out and slandered you publicly.

I wouldn't find it hard to see God saying that the narrow creedal systems which were being used to divide and hurt His people, especailly when it would appear that very few of them had any real bases in the will or heart of God were an abomination or that those who uncharitable used such creeds in an un-Christ like manner and with hearts hardend with hate were corrupt.

[HiJolly]

So are you saying it is ok to make money off porn/alcohol and gambling even though it is against your church?

It seems to me that you are assuming that the Marriott hotel chain is making money off of gambling and porn/alcohol sales. Or do you have evidence to that effect?

Not that it would surprise me if Marriott is, I'll grant you that. Are you judging those who choose to do so as hypocritical or wicked? Why?

HiJolly

[ktfords]

For someone being quite nitpicky on details, you sure are lavishly vague and imprecise when you use the word 'majority'. Would you care to explain the use of that word? The hotel chain, I would argue, makes most of its money by providing rooms for rent. I would guess even the food it sells brings in more $$ than any porn movies they may make available. I'm open to your explaining your position, though.

Glad you were teachable on the Mormon Church not owning the hotel chain, that's a good sign.

As you can see, though, twice now your starting premise is incorrect, and thus we would be in error by building on such falsehoods. Soon as you provide a valid question, I'll be glad to attempt an answer.

HiJolly

So are you saying it is ok to make money off porn, gambling and alcohol even though it is against your teachings?

[HiJolly]

So are you saying it is ok to make money off porn, gambling and alcohol even though it is against your teachings?

No, I'm not saying that. So much for discussion and understanding.

HiJolly

[ktfords]

No, I'm not saying that. So much for discussion and understanding.

HiJolly

As you said above, "I would argue, makes most of its money by providing rooms for rent. I would guess even the food it sells brings in more $$ than any porn movies they may make available".

Why do you not mention the other two? Alcohol and gambling..So are you saying that it is ok to make money off of porn alcohol and gambling even though it is against your teachings?

If your not saying that, what are you saying? You make it sound so innocent and a "no big deal" attitude.

Is a little porn ok?

It doesn't matter how much poop is in the brownies, you still have poop>

[Doctor Steuss]

I love Pharisaical dogmatism.

<--- (Hopes that no one here owns mutual funds).

[Elphaba]

It doesn't matter how much poop is in the brownies, you still have poop

Who would ruin such a scrumptious desert by putting poop (man I hate that word) in them?

Seriously, think of the prep work? Flour? Check. Butter? Check. Milk? Check. Unsweetened chocolate? Check. Baking Powder? Check, Salt? Check. Poop? Check.

The worst thing anyone would add to brownies is weed, and there are many who actually consider that a good thing. I, of course, am not one of them, except for medicinal reasons.

You need a new analogy because NO ONE WOULD PUT POOP IN BROWNIES! Only dogs eat their own feces, and they can't cook!

Elphaba

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]Only dogs eat their own feces, and they can't cook!

[...]

I soooo want a T-shirt with this on it.

[AnthonyB]

Who would ruin such a scrumptious desert by putting poop (man I hate that word) in them?

Seriously, think of the prep work? Flour? Check. Butter? Check. Milk? Check. Unsweetened chocolate? Check. Baking Powder? Check, Salt? Check. Poop? Check.

The worst thing anyone would add to brownies is weed, and there are many who actually consider that a good thing. I, of course, am not one of them, except for medicinal reasons.

You need a new analogy because NO ONE WOULD PUT POOP IN BROWNIES! Only dogs eat their own feces, and they can't cook!

Elphaba

Did hear about the LDS missionaries who were invited into a house here in Melbourne, Australia and fed cookies with a large amount of green stuff in it. (Although the guy who did it did get arrested but I can't remember what the sentence was.)

[Moksha]

Did hear about the LDS missionaries who were invited into a house here in Melbourne, Australia and fed cookies with a large amount of green stuff in it. (Although the guy who did it did get arrested but I can't remember what the sentence was.)

A meal of tuna casserole, funeral potatoes and green jell-o would have been a just sentence.

[AnthonyB]

OK I like tuna casserole (its a regular meal at our house with rice and peas), and I know by jell-o you mean jelly (the whole jam is jelly, jelly is jell-o) but what is funeral potatoes?

[LdsNana]

I apologize if this info has been posted. I only scanned the thread, and when I fell upon this remark about the church owning the Marriott Co., I decided to jump on down and just post this.

I appreciate the comments that made the point, that just because a member does something or chooses to engage, etc... in something that the "Church" preaches against, does not 'make' it, the Church.

If you have raised your children according to certain values, and then they go about doing that which is contrary... are 'you', now them?

This principle is the same here. Joseph Smith taught... I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.... period!

And so it is. As individual members, it is WE, who are accountable for our decisions in this life... not the Church! We actually get to choose for ourselves, how we will live the gospel.

Also.... the LDS Church DOES NOT own the Marriott Co. Period. And they do not control their members and (what they do in their private lives.

J.W. Marriott Jr., whose name the Hotel Chain bears, is 15% owner and he is also CEO of Marriott.

Marriott International signs in at the top of the lodging industry. The company is one of the world's leading hoteliers with more than 2,800 operated or franchised properties in more than 65 countries. Marriott's hotels include such full-service brands as Renaissance Hotels and its flagship Marriott Hotels & Resorts, as well as select-service and extended-stay brands Courtyard and Fairfield Inn. It also owns the Ritz-Carlton luxury hotel chain and several resort and time-share properties operated by Marriott Vacation Club International. The Marriott family, including CEO J. W. Marriott Jr., owns about 15% of the company.

(p.s. Hi all. I am gVr, from ldsforums. I did not know a merger was taking place on these two sites. Hope you remember me.

tDMg,

LdsNana-gVr *call me whatever you want:-)

[LdsNana]

Why am I here? I Talk to a lot of the Mormons here ...

In short, it is really nice to have conversation back and forth, and not look over and see glazed eyes. This is no different than having LDS missionaries at my house, except, I am asking questions directed at the LDS church.

Ps. What religion are you?

ktfords -

I am really glad that you have taken the time to get to know the LDS people on your own, and not through what other people say. I personally respect that, regardless of your feelings toward the Church. It is the mark of an intelligent person. So I thank you for that.

Now, on the issue of whether The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints is or is not a Christian denomination, this is something that attempting to compare doctrines, will never settle. To contend with one another is simply fruitless.

It's like the old "my dad is better than your dad" idea. Based on who's standard... right? What we all need to use here, is a little mutual respect as to what each of us have chosen to believe and how we believe it. This is one of the great doctrines of our Constitution. Also, it is proclaimed in the Lds Articles of Faith.

Simply put... one sect of Christian believers, cannot excommunicate another.

This is my perspective on the topic... I personally do not feel that evangelical Christians, or anyone for that matter, is about to accept or understand the Mormon way of "Coming unto Christ", unless or until they learn about the restoration of the Church.

The LDS base their beliefs and how they worship, on the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is no puzzle as to why the rest of the Christian community doubt the LDS people being Christians. We certainly are focused on the same perfect person, but how we go about it is not the same.

Because of the restoration of the Church, we accept modern revelation, which adds to our understanding of truth. Of course, this is only accepted IF you are LDS, or at least understood, if you understand the restoration and what that means to us as a people.

So again, it is futile to argue Christianity or doctrine with a person that will not accept the foundation of our beliefs. From them, we are simply wrong.

I can understand your perspective... so if you want to understand the LDS people and their claim to Christianity, in the way they "Come Unto Christ", then you must first start with a thorough understanding of their belief in a restoration as the basis or our faith...

And of course, this acceptance of the restoration occurring is received by members, ONCE they have received a witness of the Book of Mormon.

tDMg

LdsNana-gVR