Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Excuse me, I'm having a conversation with @Anddenex.

We're all having a conversation in here, it's open to all.

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Except that section 101 is given after sections 76,88. The endowment is given after those all.

Would you explain why you feel the section being after a section changes its meaning, as section 101 doesn't specify any correction to 76 and 88 given meaning in scripture and modern revelation?

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

We're all having a conversation in here, it's open to all.

I'm not having a conversation with you.

[Rob Osborn]

19 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Would you explain why you feel the section being after a section changes its meaning, as section 101 doesn't specify any correction to 76 and 88 given meaning in scripture and modern revelation?

It's line upon line. The Lord reveals his doctrine line upon line. Man understands things little by little. The problem is that man jumps to conclusions that later end up being incorrect. When seen as a whole being unfolded it makes better sense. The Lord is trying to show man the plan of salvation and that in the end it's only possible to be saved if one becomes like God, his sons and daughters, cleansed from all sin and godly in their attributes. This is what the Lord is showing. It's not possible to be a liar and saved. It's not possible to be only lukewarm in the gospel and be saved. It's not possible to accept only some of godliness and be saved.

[Anddenex]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's line upon line. The Lord reveals his doctrine line upon line. Man understands things little by little. The problem is that man jumps to conclusions that later end up being incorrect. When seen as a whole being unfolded it makes better sense. The Lord is trying to show man the plan of salvation and that in the end it's only possible to be saved if one becomes like God, his sons and daughters, cleansed from all sin and godly in their attributes. This is what the Lord is showing. It's not possible to be a liar and saved. It's not possible to be only lukewarm in the gospel and be saved. It's not possible to accept only some of godliness and be saved.

Was there any correction given to 76 and 88, in light of 101, as provided by modern revelation, or is modern revelation still teaching line upon line what we find in these sections?

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

In the end, all of God's children will either claim God as their father or Satan as their father. Thus all will be either a son of God or a son of the devil. There isn't any other outcome.

I am not talking about the end - I am talking about the pre-existence.  Was there a choice between G-d or  Satan?  Are you saying that was not a real choice there - just a pretend not real choice that did not matter?  That there was no actual choice made as to which kingdom and King (including plan) we follow?

 

The Traveler

Edited January 15, 2019 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

53 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Was there any correction given to 76 and 88, in light of 101, as provided by modern revelation, or is modern revelation still teaching line upon line what we find in these sections?

Section 76, in my opinion, was given in answer to Joseph's inquiry that he had assumed there certainly must be more than one kingdom the saved inherit. The Lord shows forth the vision. Later it gets written and compiled into what we now have. The problem here is the interpretation.  The Lord was trying to show Joseph Smith that truly, in the end, there is only the Celestial kingdom where the saved all dwell. Several clues given throughout prove this point. But, it isn't really recognized until one understands the endowment and the progression through kingdoms in order to become Celestial grade in order to be saved. Thus, section 101 is stating factually that in the end there is truly only Celestial glory or lake of fire and brimstone.

[Rob Osborn]

38 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am not talking about the end - I am talking about the pre-existence.  Was there a choice between G-d or  Satan?  Are you saying that was not a real choice there - just a pretend not real choice that did not matter?  That there was no actual choice made as to which kingdom and King (including plan) we follow?

 

The Traveler

The plan, from the foundation of the world was that we would show obedience so that we could all return. The flip side is that if we fail we would become those who would be cast out with the devil and his angels.

[CV75]

Sheep on the right hand, goats on the left, and everyone else somewhere in front or in back of Him.

Wheat in garners, tares in bundles, and everything else sorted accordingly ("behold, there are all kinds of bad fruit" and "every sort" -- Jacob 5).

[Traveler]

34 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The plan, from the foundation of the world was that we would show obedience so that we could all return. The flip side is that if we fail we would become those who would be cast out with the devil and his angels.

I asked a simple question - Was as choice made in the pre-existence to follow G-d or Satan?  Yes or No?

This is an important question - the answer to this question is the answer to who is wheat and who is tears.

 

The Traveler

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I asked a simple question - Was as choice made in the pre-existence to follow G-d or Satan?  Yes or No?

This is an important question - the answer to this question is the answer to who is wheat and who is tears.

 

The Traveler

 

 

Of course there was a decision made. Some chose to follow Christ at that point and some chose to follow Satan. Those who followed Satan lost their first estate.

[Rob Osborn]

37 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Sheep on the right hand, goats on the left, and everyone else somewhere in front or in back of Him.

Wheat in garners, tares in bundles, and everything else sorted accordingly ("behold, there are all kinds of bad fruit" and "every sort" -- Jacob 5).

Hum...where in the parable might these others be?

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...where in the parable might these others be?

it's only a parable, so doesn't mention them specifically, but like a parabola (they have the same Greek root), the parable is symmetric, meaning there are countless degrees between the left and the right divided by the vertex.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Section 76, in my opinion, was given in answer to Joseph's inquiry that he had assumed there certainly must be more than one kingdom the saved inherit. The Lord shows forth the vision. Later it gets written and compiled into what we now have. The problem here is the interpretation.  The Lord was trying to show Joseph Smith that truly, in the end, there is only the Celestial kingdom where the saved all dwell. Several clues given throughout prove this point. But, it isn't really recognized until one understands the endowment and the progression through kingdoms in order to become Celestial grade in order to be saved. Thus, section 101 is stating factually that in the end there is truly only Celestial glory or lake of fire and brimstone.

The Church teaches what I have shared, and you specify there is a problem in interpretation?

I am struggling with how you feel you "know" what the Lord was trying to show Joseph Smith, where all current leaders provide the following:

Quote

God thus takes into merciful account not only our desires and our performance, but also the degrees of difficulty which our varied circumstances impose upon us. No wonder we will not complain at the final judgment, especially since even the telestial kingdom’s glory “surpasses all understanding” (D&C 76:89). God delights in blessing us, especially when we realize “joy in that which [we] have desired” (D&C 7:8). Neal A. Maxwell

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Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

Quote

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have “received the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Quote

 

The effect of God’s commandments and laws is not changed to accommodate popular behavior or desires. If anyone thinks that godly or parental love for an individual grants the loved one license to disobey the law, he or she does not understand either love or law. The Lord declared: “That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still” (D&C 88:35).

We read in modern revelation, “All kingdoms have a law given” (D&C 88:36). For example:

“He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory” (D&C 88:22–24).

In other words, the kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life, “the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7). Dallin H. Oaks

 

Quote

 

The Lord revealed more to the Prophet Joseph Smith, who wrote of the telestial glory, where those will ultimately abide “who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus” while in this life. (D&C 76:82.)

The Prophet taught of the terrestrial glory as the abode for the “honorable … of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men,” who rejected the gospel while on the earth. (D&C 76:75.)

And then he wrote of the celestial glory, which “glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all.” (D&C 76:70.) There the faithful will dwell together with their families, enjoying exaltation with our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son. With them will be those who have been obedient to ordinances and covenants made in holy temples, where they were sealed to predecessors and posterity. Russel M. Nelson

 

There are multiple witnesses from those who hold keys, and those who hold keys to interpret scripture to the Church collectively regarding the concept of Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial glories after the resurrection. Yet, you feel, that all these brethren have a problem with interpreting what Joseph Smith was given by the Lord?

Are you able to provide one apostle or prophet that declares the same interpretation as you?

[Anddenex]

49 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I asked a simple question - Was as choice made in the pre-existence to follow G-d or Satan?  Yes or No?

This is an important question - the answer to this question is the answer to who is wheat and who is tears.

 

The Traveler

 

 

Thank you for the following thought. The application of this parable also includes our pre-mortal life. I like.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

it's only a parable, so doesn't mention them specifically, but like a parabola (they have the same Greek root), the parable is symmetric, meaning there are countless degrees between the left and the right divided by the vertex.

So, what you are saying is that the parable isnt really true, that there is another field of corn or beans not spoken of. Sounds iffy.

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

The Church teaches what I have shared, and you specify there is a problem in interpretation?

I am struggling with how you feel you "know" what the Lord was trying to show Joseph Smith, where all current leaders provide the following:

There are multiple witnesses from those who hold keys, and those who hold keys to interpret scripture to the Church collectively regarding the concept of Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial glories after the resurrection. Yet, you feel, that all these brethren have a problem with interpreting what Joseph Smith was given by the Lord?

Are you able to provide one apostle or prophet that declares the same interpretation as you?

Well, we do know that we now live in the Telestial Kingdom. A modern prophet has told us that. 

But, I am more interested in what the scriptures and temple actually teach as they are less prone to error and mere opinions. In section 76, if one carefully reads it, speaks rather plainly on who is saved and who isnt. The problem arises though that it was written with the speculation that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are kingdoms of salvation after resurrection and judgment. In fact, the Lord shows Joseph in verses 50-70 the state of all the saved in the end. The explanation of the terrestrial and telestial were meant to convey the progressive stages of the plan. Somehow, that meaning was lost in transcribing and understanding. But, lucky for us, the original wording allows us to build a correct picture when we couple it with the temple endowment. For instance- in the terrestrial kingdom are found all those who died without law. Why? Is someone who merely lived and died when the gospel wasnt around destined just for a subpar glory? Section 137 tells us otherwise. The reason why they are in the terrestrial glory is because the terrestrial kingdom takes place during the millennium and during that 1000 years they will have the opportunity to accept and live according to the law of the gospel. Telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are temporary kingdoms that are made to advance man into the type of beings that are savable. Read verses 50-70 very carefully and compare them eith the previous verses of that same section of those whom Christ saves. Verses 50-70 is the very "testimony" of the only ones Christ saves and cleanses from all sin as mentioned here in these verses-

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Now compare with how verse 50 reads out-

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

Verses 50-70 then give the account of the resurrection of the just and bears testimony of those whom he saves as mentioned prior. 

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, what you are saying is that the parable isnt really true, that there is another field of corn or beans not spoken of. Sounds iffy.

No, I am not saying any of that. So if it sounds iffy to you, perhaps good seed did not fall into good ground.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, we do know that we now live in the Telestial Kingdom. A modern prophet has told us that. 

But, I am more interested in what the scriptures and temple actually teach as they are less prone to error and mere opinions. In section 76, if one carefully reads it, speaks rather plainly on who is saved and who isnt. The problem arises though that it was written with the speculation that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are kingdoms of salvation after resurrection and judgment. In fact, the Lord shows Joseph in verses 50-70 the state of all the saved in the end. The explanation of the terrestrial and telestial were meant to convey the progressive stages of the plan. Somehow, that meaning was lost in transcribing and understanding. But, lucky for us, the original wording allows us to build a correct picture when we couple it with the temple endowment. For instance- in the terrestrial kingdom are found all those who died without law. Why? Is someone who merely lived and died when the gospel wasnt around destined just for a subpar glory? Section 137 tells us otherwise. The reason why they are in the terrestrial glory is because the terrestrial kingdom takes place during the millennium and during that 1000 years they will have the opportunity to accept and live according to the law of the gospel. Telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are temporary kingdoms that are made to advance man into the type of beings that are savable. Read verses 50-70 very carefully and compare them eith the previous verses of that same section of those whom Christ saves. Verses 50-70 is the very "testimony" of the only ones Christ saves and cleanses from all sin as mentioned here in these verses-

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Now compare with how verse 50 reads out-

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

Verses 50-70 then give the account of the resurrection of the just and bears testimony of those whom he saves as mentioned prior. 

OK, so you are not able to provide any clarification or interpretation that matches your thoughts and beliefs from a past or living apostle or prophet. I understand this is how you are interpreting these scriptures, which is a personal interpretation -- not true doctrine -- but opinion on the matter.

In light of this, as I have provided you with words of living and past prophets and apostles and the current teachings of the Church as is on their website regarding topics. I can safely assume your interpretation is your interpretation. If you are presenting this as doctrine I can safely shun it as false doctrine.

EDIT: To be clear, this is not personal, this is not me saying "you don't know what you are talking about," this is not me saying you're nuts or anything of the sort. This is me simply recognizing a pattern throughout scripture that God has given for us to know His source of revealing doctrine collectively to the Church. Do I believe I can know something that has not been revealed? Yes, I do. Do I believe the Spirit can enlighten us further? Yes, I do. When my theories are in contradiction to revealed word, I have to check myself just like anyone else. In this case, I find no evidence that supports the thoughts you give. If you speak from a personal perspective, I have no problem with personal perspective. If something is presented as doctrine that doesn't have any validation from living and past apostles, then I have to reject out of principles relating to revealed truth and doctrine.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Of course there was a decision made. Some chose to follow Christ at that point and some chose to follow Satan. Those who followed Satan lost their first estate.

Not exactly - Those that followed Satan never will have a second estate.  Only those that follow G-d will participate in a second estate.  This is a critical and important notion in the Plan of Salvation.  Thus the main purpose of the second estate cannot be to separate those that follow G-d from those the follow Satan - that was already accomplished.  Since the main purpose of the first estate was to separate those the follow Satan from those that follow G-d - it stand to reason that the second estate has something else as its main purpose.  As I have read through your post - you do not seem to understand any other purpose - let alone any possible value of any pursuit of any other purpose.  It would seem from your arguments that there is no purpose or reason to suffer through a second estate.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

OK, so you are not able to provide any clarification or interpretation that matches your thoughts and beliefs from a past or living apostle or prophet. I understand this is how you are interpreting these scriptures, which is a personal interpretation -- not true doctrine -- but opinion on the matter.

In light of this, as I have provided you with words of living and past prophets and apostles and the current teachings of the Church as is on their website regarding topics. I can safely assume your interpretation is your interpretation. If you are presenting this as doctrine I can safely shun it as false doctrine.

There is doctrine, false doctrines, and true doctrines. One of the problems we have as members is the belief that any and all doctrine taught by the church must be true and anything that even hints at not aligning is false and not true.  But as I am showing with this parable of the wheat and the tares, there certainly is this true doctrine that in the end all of the saved recieve celestial glory it shows that we are not complete in our doctrine in it being all true. Certainly, we are indeed in the Telestial kingdom, just as the truthfulness is plainly made manifest in our holy temples and by a prophet of God. But, again, our understanding of this truth is shrouded in doctrines that are not necessarily true. I can clearly point out contradictions in our doctrine proving we teach false doctrines. So, where does this leave us? What or whom should we shun and whom or what to embrace?

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Not exactly - Those that followed Satan never will have a second estate.  Only those that follow G-d will participate in a second estate.  This is a critical and important notion in the Plan of Salvation.  Thus the main purpose of the second estate cannot be to separate those that follow G-d from those the follow Satan - that was already accomplished.  Since the main purpose of the first estate was to separate those the follow Satan from those that follow G-d - it stand to reason that the second estate has something else as its main purpose.  As I have read through your post - you do not seem to understand any other purpose - let alone any possible value of any pursuit of any other purpose.  It would seem from your arguments that there is no purpose or reason to suffer through a second estate.

 

The Traveler

Hum... there are those who lose their second estate. Is this not clearly showing a further separation or a more refined separation?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

No, I am not saying any of that. So if it sounds iffy to you, perhaps good seed did not fall into good ground.

Im not following what you are saying. Why is it that we tend to try to read things into the parable when its not warranted? There are only wheat or tares, theres nothing else, just those two.

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum... there are those who lose their second estate. Is this not clearly showing a further separation or a more refined separation?

So you believe the separation that took place in the first estate was false and in error?  Me thinks you do not understand the purpose of the second estate.  Obviously failing the second estate is not the same as failing the first.  Likewise keeping the second estate is not the same as keeping the first.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 15, 2019 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

So you believe the separation that took place in the first estate was false and in error?  Me thinks you do not understand the purpose of the second estate.  Obviously failing the second estate is not the same as failing the first.

 

The Traveler

Failing the second estate puts one in the same place as those who failed their first. That place is hell with the devil and his angels.