The Path or Way

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

One point must remain- only those who reach the end of the path can be saved.

The "end" for all on the various paths or rungs (i.e. the Plan of Progression), is the resurrection--which glories or kingdoms are contingent upon which of the multiple (more than two) rungs each of us was willing to climb to in this life and the hereafter. 

In other words, those only willing to climb to the Telestial rung, will receive a Telestial resurrected body with its accompanying glory and kingdom.  The same is likewise true for those only willing to climb to the Terrestrial rung. They will receive a Terestrial resurrected body with accompanying glory and kingdom.  Whereas, those willing to climb to the Celestial rung will receive a Celestial  resurrected body with accompanying glory and kingdoms. Ample evidence for this is contained in D&C 76 and 88, etc.

What I have just simply stated is the further light and knowledge reserved for those willing and prepared to climb up from the old rung of the binary view of heaven and hell.

The question is, do you have the humility to climb up to the next rung?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What do you mean by saved? My definition of saved is entering the Celestial Kingdom, but for some it means simply to not go to Outer darkness. So, no, one cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom without repenting and accepting Christ as our Savior.

Well, the scriptures speak of being "saved" from hell. It doesn't speak of being saved from anything else. If we are saved, in gospel terms, we are "saved" from hell. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, wenglund said:

The "end" for all on the various paths or rungs (i.e. the Plan of Progression), is the resurrection--which glories or kingdoms are contingent upon which of the multiple (more than two) rungs each of us was willing to climb to in this life and the hereafter. 

In other words, those only willing to climb to the Telestial rung, will receive a Telestial resurrected body with its accompanying glory and kingdom.  The same is likewise true for those only willing to climb to the Terrestrial rung. They will receive a Terestrial resurrected body with accompanying glory and kingdom.  Whereas, those willing to climb to the Celestial rung will receive a Celestial  resurrected body with accompanying glory and kingdoms. Ample evidence for this is contained in D&C 76 and 88, etc.

What I have just simply stated is the further light and knowledge reserved for those willing and prepared to climb up from the old rung of the binary view of heaven and hell.

The question is, do you have the humility to climb up to the next rung?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The path shows, as from my quoted statements, that the way to heaven is about ascending through the kingdoms from lowest upward until one gets to the top.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im curious to know- do you believe in the gospel of salvation there is one path or many and if there is more than one path does it lead to a different destination?

The path is a metaphor.  A person in Africa can be on the path living the gospel of salvation and another person can be is South America that can also be on the path and living the gospel of salvation.    It is not a matter of physical orientation but rather something spiritual.  Assuming such a thing to be a physical orientation is likely to lead to completely wrong physical conclusions.

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The path shows, as from my quoted statements, that the way to heaven is about ascending through the kingdoms from lowest upward until one gets to the top.

Yes, that is the path of ascension/progression following the descent from premortal heaven and during mortality and the spirit world after mortality,.

However, and this is important, it is also the "end" brought on by the FINAL JUDGEMENT and  the resurrection, and this depending upon the highest rung to which one was willing to climb during mortality and the hereafter. In a sense, the resurrection FINALizes the degree to which one is willing to progress, be it only to the Telestial or Terrestrial rungs, or on to the Celestial.

Again, are you willing to climb up from the rung of binary thinking to the higher rung of further light and knowledge?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

40 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Yes, that is the path of ascension/progression following the descent from premortal heaven and during mortality and the spirit world after mortality,.

However, and this is important, it is also the "end" brought on by the FINAL JUDGEMENT and  the resurrection, and this depending upon the highest rung to which one was willing to climb during mortality and the hereafter. In a sense, the resurrection FINALizes the degree to which one is willing to progress, be it only to the Telestial or Terrestrial rungs, or on to the Celestial.

Again, are you willing to climb up from the rung of binary thinking to the higher rung of further light and knowledge?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't think you understand.  Let me quote again-

He beheld angels ascending and descending thereon, and Jacob realized that the covenants he made with the Lord there were the rungs on the ladder that he himself would have to climb in order to obtain the promised blessings--blessings that would entitle him to enter heaven and associate with the Lord. " (Marion G. Romney)

“Paul ascended into the third heaven, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder-the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter." (Joseph Smith)

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

The rungs of the ladder isn't the destination but rather a means to get to the destination. No one climbs a ladder halfway. If one climbs a ladder he reaches the top and each rung is for the purpose of getting him to the next.

[wenglund]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I don't think you understand.  Let me quote again-

He beheld angels ascending and descending thereon, and Jacob realized that the covenants he made with the Lord there were the rungs on the ladder that he himself would have to climb in order to obtain the promised blessings--blessings that would entitle him to enter heaven and associate with the Lord. " (Marion G. Romney)

“Paul ascended into the third heaven, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder-the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter." (Joseph Smith)

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

The rungs of the ladder isn't the destination but rather a means to get to the destination. No one climbs a ladder halfway. If one climbs a ladder he reaches the top and each rung is for the purpose of getting him to the next.

This tacitly answers my question. I am sorry you have chosen at this point not to climb to the next run. It is a form of self damnation (an "end" of sorts), and an object lesson that illustrates my point--at least to those with eyes to see....

All the best.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, wenglund said:

This tacitly answers my question. I am sorry you have chosen at this point not to climb to the next run. It is a form of self damnation (an "end" of sorts), and an object lesson that illustrates my point--at least to those with eyes to see....

All the best.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't think you grasp what those prophets were saying about the ladder. All the best to you though. Have a good day.

[wenglund]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I don't think you grasp what those prophets were saying about the ladder. All the best to you though. Have a good day.

I have no doubt that from your binary view, it appears that way., and will likely continue to appear that way until you are willing to climb up to the next rung--which, evidently, is unlikely to happen. And so I will END with that.

Thanks, -Wade ENglund-

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I have no doubt that from your binary view, it appears that way., and will likely continue to appear that way until you are willing to climb up to the next rung--which, evidently, is unlikely to happen. And so I will END with that.

Thanks, -Wade ENglund-

It's far above the binary, far above the confusion and misunderstandings of the world. I was hoping for you to understand the concept of "climbing" to reach a destination, "one step upon another".

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's far above the binary, far above the confusion and misunderstandings of the world. I was hoping for you to understand the concept of "climbing" to reach a destination, "one step upon another".

Now, back to @Traveler's salient point about paths and enlightenment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

39 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The rungs of the ladder isn't the destination but rather a means to get to the destination. No one climbs a ladder halfway. If one climbs a ladder he reaches the top and each rung is for the purpose of getting him to the next.

At the risk of wasting everyone's time, let's consider the metaphor of an educational ladder, with the destination of a college degree, with the prospects of a post graduate education only for those who reach the intended destination.

However, while the ladder leads to that destination, and contrary to what you suggest, some people do climb the ladder only part way. Some people only get a primary or secondary education. Some people only get a high school education.  While other graduate from college.

Those who climb no higher than secondary education have effectively ENDED their climb up the ladder. For them, the secondary education has become their DESTINATION.

The same is true for those who climb no higher than a high school education. For them, high school has become their DESTINATION.

Now, perhaps this nuanced concept of DESTINATION or END may be lost on those with but a secondary or even high school education. But, hopefully it is within the grasp of those who complete college and wish to continue their post-graduate education.

If this doesn't result in cognition, then I am done trying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

At the risk of wasting everyone's time, let's consider the metaphor of an educational ladder, with the destination of a college degree, with the prospects of a post graduate education only for those who reach the intended destination.

However, while the ladder leads to that destination, and contrary to what you suggest, some people do climb the ladder only part way. Some people only get a primary or secondary education. Some people only get a high school education.  While other graduate from college.

Those who climb no higher than secondary education have effectively ENDED their climb up the ladder. For them, the secondary education has become their DESTINATION.

The same is true for those who climb no higher than a high school education. For them, high school has become their DESTINATION.

Now, perhaps this nuanced concept of DESTINATION or END may be lost on those with but a secondary or even high school education. But, hopefully it is within the grasp of those who complete college and wish to continue their post-graduate education.

If this doesn't result in cognition, then I am done trying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Apples and oranges on your analogy. We are talking about the destination at the end of the path. We are talking about salvation from hell. The destination at the end is where we meet the goal for being saved from hell. A better analogy would be like traveling across country to go to Grandma's house for Christmas. We may stop at various places along the way, see other vistas and be happy in legs of the journey but we do not meet the purpose of the journey itself until we get to Grandma's. And so it is with the ladder Jacob saw in his dream, it's the destination at the top that is the goal- the entire purpose. Salvation isn't given to those who wander off the path and get lost, it's only those who make it to the end goal or destination.

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Apples and oranges on your analogy. We are talking about the destination at the end of the path. We are talking about salvation from hell. The destination at the end is where we meet the goal for being saved from hell. A better analogy would be like traveling across country to go to Grandma's house for Christmas. We may stop at various places along the way, see other vistas and be happy in legs of the journey but we do not meet the purpose of the journey itself until we get to Grandma's. And so it is with the ladder Jacob saw in his dream, it's the destination at the top that is the goal- the entire purpose. Salvation isn't given to those who wander off the path and get lost, it's only those who make it to the end goal or destination.

Completing the analogy, not that it will make a difference.

Let us suppose that there is a final graduation (judgement) for ladder climbers in which the climbing, for most, ends, and they the climbers are then set on an eternal career path commensurate with the highest level they were willing to climb in education.  Those who were only willing to climb to the primary and secondary wrung of the education ladder, were given primary/secondary eternal careers. Those who were only willing to climb to the high school wrung, were granted high school eternal careers. And so on and so forth.

So, there are multiple, and perhaps nuanced  destinations. The ultimate intent of the ladder was to progress to and receive a college degree and pursue a collegiate level eternal career. Even still, and sadly, there will be many who have and will choose less. Their realized destinations are and will be different from the intended destination.

It is kind of like heading across country to visit Grandma, and deciding that there is a stronger draw keeping you eternally in the Death Valley, or in the  rolling hills of Nevada, rather than the going on to the high Rockies where Grandma lives. Destinations change due to agency, making multiple destinations. 

Of course this won't register with you. But there it is. And, there is where it will end with me even though the intended distention was cognition. As the saying goes, "Some people you just can't reach." Sadly, some people are unwilling to climb any higher than a binary mindset.

Thank,s, -Wade Englund-

 

[Rob Osborn]

18 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Completing the analogy, not that it will make a difference.

Let us suppose that there is a final graduation (judgement) for ladder climbers in which the climbing, for most, ends, and they the climbers are then set on an eternal career path commensurate with the highest level they were willing to climb in education.  Those who were only willing to climb to the primary and secondary wrung of the education ladder, were given primary/secondary eternal careers. Those who were only willing to climb to the high school wrung, were granted high school eternal careers. And so on and so forth.

So, there are multiple, and perhaps nuanced  destinations. The ultimate intent of the ladder was to progress to and receive a college degree and pursue a collegiate level eternal career. Even still, and sadly, there will be many who have and will choose less. Their realized destinations are and will be different from the intended destination.

It is kind of like heading across country to visit Grandma, and deciding that there is a stronger draw keeping you eternally in the Death Valley, or in the  rolling hills of Nevada, rather than the going on to the high Rockies where Grandma lives. Destinations change due to agency, making multiple destinations. 

Of course this won't register with you. But there it is. And, there is where it will end with me even though the intended distention was cognition. As the saying goes, "Some people you just can't reach." Sadly, some people are unwilling to climb any higher than a binary mindset.

Thank,s, -Wade Englund-

 

You really don't get it. It doesn't work. With your analogy being applied to the path of salvation you have to say that many along the way end up still having a degree of sin and thus filthy but yet nevertheless saved. It doesn't work that way. The end of the path represents cleanliness and purity. All those Christ saves he does so from all their sins because they have completely changed.

[wenglund]

51 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

With your analogy being applied to the path of salvation you have to say that many along the way end up still having a degree of sin and thus filthy but yet nevertheless saved.

No. What I am saying, or rather what the scriptures suggest, is that many are saved or honored to varying DEGREES (note the play on words)--else wise you make Christ a liar when he promised that "they will in no wise lose their reward (D&C 58:28)

But, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for you to make Christ a liar when you have done the same to several chosen leaders who came/come in his name.

But, here again I am wasting my breath. There are few things more impregnable than a closed, binary, dogmatic mind.

Bye.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

No. What I am saying, or rather what the scriptures suggest, is that many are saved or honored to varying DEGREES (note the play on words)--else wise you make Christ a liar when he promised that "they will in no wise lose their reward (D&C 58:28)

But, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for you to make Christ a liar when you have done the same to several chosen leaders who came/come in his name.

But, here again I am wasting my breath. There are few things more impregnable than a closed, binary, dogmatic mind.

Bye.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Those Christ saves aren't saved in varrying degrees from hell (saved means saved from the eternal hell). We are either saved 100% from our sins or we aren't saved at all from them. Christ doesn't save someone from 88% percent of their sins, neither 1%, and neither 99%. If someone merits salvation it is because of their repentance and forgiveness of 100% of their sins. It means they are completely cleansed, not 88% cleansed, neither 1%, and neither 99%. This is the part where you can't explain- where does it say that Christ will save someone from most or part of their sins but not all of their sins?

Edited January 25, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

30 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Those Christ saves aren't saved in varrying degrees from hell (saved means saved from the eternal hell). We are either saved 100% from our sins or we aren't saved at all from them. Christ doesn't save someone from 88% percent of their sins, neither 1%, and neither 99%. If someone merits salvation it is because of their repentance and forgiveness of 100% of their sins. It means they are completely cleansed, not 88% cleansed, neither 1%, and neither 99%. This is the part where you can't explain- where does it say that Christ will save someone from most or part of their sins but not all of their sins?

You have a very narrow view of eternity. 

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

You have a very narrow view of eternity. 

How do you mean?

[Traveler]

A few points:

1. This is not the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder-day Saints.

2. Salvation (righteousness) is not obtained by "checking all the boxes" aka Pharisees alms verses the Widow's mite. 

3. Demands of justice require blessings for each step of righteousness.  The word or term "perdition" indicates complete ruin (no reward or blessing).  G-d would be unjust and a lair if those that kept their first estate ended up in the same "place" as those that did not.

4. Salvation (righteousness) is not centered completely on individual achievement but must include relationships with others - that requires unity or oneness that includes compassion and attitude of inclusion.  Sending others (forcing them) or even thinking in one's heart of sending others to some other place is neither compassionate nor inclusive. 

5. Salvation (righteousness) is not exclusiveness (separating the seemingly or so thought better from the not so wonderful) but rather the serving; especially of those that do not deserve it (love your enemies - doing good to those that despitefully use you).

6. The principles of salvation (righteousness) do not change after the resurrection or in eternity.  The saints of G-d are not exclusive but announce invitation all to come with the attitude of serving, assisting and lifting those that have sinned.  There is not an attitude of damning them (cutting them off) - even those that are excommunicated are given open invitations to return and renew.  I personally believe this principle of righteousness - of loving and inviting sinners to righteousness unto repentance is a true and eternal principle and all that have faith in Jesus Christ will love this principle and hold true to it forever.

7. The biggest problem I have with those that think the path of salvation (righteousness) leads to a destination (conclusion) is that - once someone arrives at a destination; they are there and it does not matter any more what they do after they get there because they arrived at the destination.  But the truth is that all the things one did along the way to salvation (righteousness) must continue and never subside or stop.  If one keeps doing what they did to get to any particular destination they will instantly leave the place they arrived and continue on to somewhere else.

 

The Traveler

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

48 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

How do you mean?

You spend a lot of your time telling everyone how there is just heaven and hell and nothing else. You only seem to quote a single scripture from the Book of Mormon to support this and you ignore when someone points out multiple scriptures from the D&C and other locations that show your are not completely correct, sections 76 and 88 in particular. There are three kingdoms of glory in the afterlife and they are all places that will be filled with people at peace and not suffering eternal torment.

[Rob Osborn]

13 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

You spend a lot of your time telling everyone how there is just heaven and hell and nothing else. You only seem to quote a single scripture from the Book of Mormon to support this and you ignore when someone points out multiple scriptures from the D&C and other locations that show your are not completely correct, sections 76 and 88 in particular. There are three kingdoms of glory in the afterlife and they are all places that will be filled with people at peace and not suffering eternal torment.

But we aren't discussing the three glories here, although it does relate. We are discussing the narrow path. My point I am making is that the gate and path are the minimal actions one must take in order to be saved. This is the basic salvation spoken of in scripture. It's in this light-

29 Yea, we see that whosoever will may lay hold upon the word of God, which is quick and powerful, which shall divide asunder all the cunning and the snares and the wiles of the devil, and lead the man of Christ in a strait and narrow course across that everlasting gulf of misery which is prepared to engulf the wicked. (Hel. 3:29)

 

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Those Christ saves aren't saved in varrying degrees from hell (saved means saved from the eternal hell). We are either saved 100% from our sins or we aren't saved at all from them. Christ doesn't save someone from 88% percent of their sins, neither 1%, and neither 99%. If someone merits salvation it is because of their repentance and forgiveness of 100% of their sins. It means they are completely cleansed, not 88% cleansed, neither 1%, and neither 99%. This is the part where you can't explain- where does it say that Christ will save someone from most or part of their sins but not all of their sins?

Bye wall.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Bye wall.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Don't even want to address the point eh? Can't find the scripture showing the exit prematurely off of the narrow path eh?

[wenglund]

26 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Don't even want to address the point eh? Can't find the scripture showing the exit prematurely off of the narrow path eh?

Bye wall.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-