Neuro's seitch for fremen fanboys

[NeuroTypical]

Yep, Asimov was my marijuana, gateway to the crystal meth that is Dune.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Ok, while we're waiting for DUNCTwain, the halftime show is hot off the presses as of 3 hours ago:

 

I bet there's one other person on earth out there who got a kick out of StarWars: Rebels.  The show saved my sanity during COVID lockdown, I watched the series from my basement treadmill, peering out through my blinds, fearful of the plague.

It continued Ahsoka's story a bit, and she's hands down the best character the whole dang universe had to offer IMO.  I've liked her ever since she dropped the mic on the Jedi council.  Watching her survive Order 66 and have to bury all her friends was heartbreaking.  Sort of what people wished watching Padme die would have been, if it hadn't been so incorrigibly cheesy.

 

Spoilers:

 

 

 

Spoilers:

 

 

 

Spoilers:

 

 

 

Spoilers:

 

Oh my heck - she took an apprentice, and it was Sabine!   Holy crap, been waiting what, 3 years now, to watch her and Ezra smooch, and now she's a Jedi?  It's gonna be a great series.

Starring Elon Musk as General Thrawn:

 

If the Lothcats show up, that'll be the icing on the cake.

 

I haven't had goosebumps from a preview for a lot of years.  It seems like they wrote the whole dang trailer just for me.

 

 

[mikbone]

I thought Thrawn looked more like Data, Brent Spiner from Star Trek, but that would just be

Its actually Lars Mikkelsen.

Can’t wait.  Hope its as good as the trailer!

 

 

[NeuroTypical]

Shaihuludia shurikeni.
 

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Shaihuludia shurikeni.
 

That looks more like the Ceti eel.  And it is roughly the same size.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That looks more like the Ceti eel.  And it is roughly the same size.

Exactly what I thought. Should be called the Chekovi shurikeni.

[Vort]

On 8/16/2019 at 2:48 AM, Jamie123 said:

I have read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune only once, and didn't like them so much. I think my problem is that I didn't much care who won in the end. If it's a choice between the Atreides (who at least brand themselves as being the good guys) and the horrible Harkonnens and their disgusting Baron, its easy to know what side to root for. In the second two books the Atreides are almost as bad as anyone else. Children of Dune does pick up towards the end: I have some sympathy for Leto and Ghanima (they are only kids after all) and I liked the way the prince (forgotten his name) put his horrible mother in her place once he discovered what she was up to.

I am not a Dunie (or Dunehead, or Dunefanboi, or a Herbertian, or whatever they might call themselves), so take my recollection with a few large grains of salt. (And yes, I fully realize that I'm responding to a comment Jamie made four years ago.)

***POTENTIAL SPOILERS, IF MY MEMORY IS ANYWHERE CLOSE TO CORRECT***

As I recall, the whole überpoint behind the Dune series was that galactic humanity was going to be destroyed if nothing was done to set the future timeline straight, which was being corrupted by the incessant lookaheads of spice consumers, especially the starship captains (they have a special name that I don't remember). Paul thought to ignore this unpleasant reality and "do the right thing", as he saw it. His son Leto II decided instead to basically take the curse upon himself, transmute himself into a horrid sandwormy monster, live for a thousand (or more) years as a horrible tyrant, and in the end allow himself to be overthrown, all to put the otherwise-inavoidable galactic catastrophe to rest. So comparisons to the Harkonnens seem unfair, if not completely beside the point.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

As I recall, the whole überpoint behind the Dune series was that galactic humanity was going to be destroyed if nothing was done to set the future timeline straight...

Something along those lines.  The logic behind it was pretty much complete fabrication for the plot.  It went like this:

PROBLEM:

• Because prescient individuals could look into the future, then they could eventually see the end of the human race.  And no matter how far into the future that end was, it was still an end.  
• Then they use reverse cause and effect to say that if anyone could see the end of the human race, then the race was doomed.

SOLUTION:

• Create a breeding program where humans could no longer be detected by prescient observers.  That way, no one can see the end of the race.  The human race would be secure.
• By the end of God Emperor of Dune (fourth book) he had achieved such an individual who would continue that genetic characteristic to her children.  Thus the human race was secure.  (nevermind variables like the heat death of the universe).

That was really twisted logic to me.  It was like believing in predestination because God has foreknowledge.  

I began reading the next book Heretics of Dune.  I couldn't get past the second chapter.  It was just plain boring.  It didn't really have any of the same characteristics.  I was no longer invested in the story or characters.  And after the disappointment from God Emperor, I was not going to invest the time.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

Or, this summary from a TikTok millennial, who asks us to pay more attention to Paul's origin story, because he both screwed up the Bene Gesserit plans, and paved the way to the salvation of the whole human race through his son:

Edited August 10, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[NeuroTypical]

Probably my most favorite summary was along the lines of "Frank Herbert spent some time in the Middle Eastern oil industry, Dune is basically full of grade-school analogies to resource shortages and oppressing native populations to extract resources, and all the Kevin Anderson books were just adding end of the race stuff to keep selling books."

[mikbone]

The initial book was best IMHO.

Great Christ imagery.

Taking the water of life was the closest thing i’ve read to compare to the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

I loved how all the witches suffered whilst Paul was converting the water.  I assume that Satan and his followers had a similar experience.

Edited August 10, 2023 by mikbone

[Vort]

33 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Taking the water of life was the closest thing i’ve read to compare to the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Given that the sandworms were easily the largest and most obvious phallic symbol in known science fiction, I think the "water of life" was a symbol of, um, something else.

[mikbone]

41 minutes ago, Vort said:

Given that the sandworms were easily the largest and most obvious phallic symbol in known science fiction, I think the "water of life" was a symbol of, um, something else.

The water of life is harvested from a young sandworm and is likely a distillate from their bile.

Young sandworms are pre-pubescent thus unlikely associated with your connotation.

And bile is slightly alkaline akin to the vinegar that Christ was given…

Your Dune lore could use a brush-up.

Edited August 10, 2023 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

I never knew the guy, but I'm thinking if someone told Herbert that they were finding Christian typology in his books, he'd have a massive belly laugh.    His books are about how politics, religion, power, and random chance intersect, over and over again, randomly, across human history.   About how all four are wielded by different groups and individuals at different times for their own ends. 

 

[mikbone]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I never knew the guy, but I'm thinking if someone told Herbert that they were finding Christian typology in his books, he'd have a massive belly laugh.    His books are about how politics, religion, power, and random chance intersect, over and over again, randomly, across human history.   About how all four are wielded by different groups and individuals at different times for their own ends. 

 

Not sure about his personal religious beliefs but the books were highly spiritual.  

   Shai-Hulud

[mikbone]

From our friendly AI ChatGPT.

Frank Herbert’s science fiction masterpiece “Dune” is a literary work rich with intricate layers of symbolism and allegory, one of which is the profound Christ imagery that permeates the narrative. While not overtly religious, the novel carries numerous elements that evoke parallels to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. These subtle allusions to Christ’s story contribute to the depth of the novel and invite readers to contemplate themes of sacrifice, messianic figures, and the transformative power of belief.

One of the most evident instances of Christ imagery in “Dune” is the character Paul Atreides, the novel’s central figure. Paul, born into a noble house, embodies qualities that mirror those attributed to Jesus Christ. He rises from humble beginnings, much like Christ’s nativity in a manger, to fulfill a prophetic destiny that involves leading a group of oppressed people—the Fremen—toward freedom. This parallels Christ’s role as a liberator of the marginalized and downtrodden.

Furthermore, Paul’s journey in the desert of Arrakis, where he endures trials, confronts his fears, and acquires heightened awareness, can be seen as mirroring Christ’s forty days in the wilderness, where he faced temptations and emerged spiritually strengthened. In both cases, the desert serves as a place of revelation and transformation, where the protagonist undergoes a profound inner journey.

The Bene Gesserit sisterhood, a secretive and influential group in the novel, also bears resemblance to the early Christian Church. Their breeding program, aimed at creating a prophesied super-being known as the Kwisatz Haderach, is reminiscent of the anticipation of the Messiah in early Christian communities. This connection is heightened by the role of the Bene Gesserit in shaping Paul’s path and preparing him for his messianic role.

The concept of the “Water of Life,” a substance derived from the body of a giant sandworm, is another intriguing Christ-like symbol. The ingestion of this substance brings heightened awareness and a deep connection to collective memory, resembling the transformative nature of Christ’s teachings that lead to spiritual enlightenment and communion with the divine.

The theme of sacrifice is exemplified through the Fremen’s reverence for water, a scarce resource on the desert planet. This emphasis on water parallels Christ’s emphasis on living water, a metaphor for spiritual sustenance. The Fremen’s willingness to sacrifice and fight for their freedom, often to the point of martyrdom, mirrors Christ’s sacrificial death for the salvation of humanity.

Moreover, the religion that develops around Paul, particularly his revered title of “Muad’Dib,” draws striking parallels to the development of Christianity. Paul’s words and actions inspire a fervent following that attributes divine qualities to him, much like the apostles and early followers of Christ. The term “Muad’Dib” itself is reminiscent of religious titles like “Messiah” or “Christ.”

In conclusion, Frank Herbert’s “Dune” masterfully weaves Christ imagery into its narrative, prompting readers to reflect on themes of sacrifice, transformation, and the power of belief. While the novel is set in a far-future, science fiction context, the subtle echoes of Christ’s story add depth and complexity to the characters and their journey. By blending elements of the Christ narrative with science fiction tropes, Herbert engages readers in thought-provoking exploration of faith, destiny, and the human capacity for change. Just as the original Christ story has endured and inspired for centuries, the Christ imagery in “Dune” continues to captivate readers and spark discussions about the intersections of religion, myth, and storytelling.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

And bile is slightly alkaline akin to the vinegar that Christ was given…

Vinegar is slightly acidic, not alkaline.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Your Dune lore could use a brush-up

Oh, I have not the slightest doubt you are right.

[Vort]

50 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I never knew the guy, but I'm thinking if someone told Herbert that they were finding Christian typology in his books, he'd have a massive belly laugh.    His books are about how politics, religion, power, and random chance intersect, over and over again, randomly, across human history.   About how all four are wielded by different groups and individuals at different times for their own ends. 

I met him when I was 15. As I recall (no promises), he was a devout atheist. Judging by Dune, he had a fascination with Islam.

[mikbone]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

Vinegar is slightly acidic, not alkaline.

Dangit, you got me.

I should have just listed

Matthew 27: 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

[Vort]

I just did a quick scan of Frank Herbert's writeup on Wikipedia. Sounds like quite an amazing, impressive man, someone I would like to have known.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Dangit, you got me.

I should have just listed

Matthew 27: 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

I think gall means bile, so there you go.

[mikbone]

Just now, Vort said:

I think gall means bile, so there you go.

Yup. Bile is made in the Liver and concentrated in the Gall Bladder.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

From our friendly AI ChatGPT.

Yes, well:

Quote

Frank Herbert's Dune series is a science fiction masterpiece that delves into the intricate web of religion, politics, morals, ethics, and spirituality. While some readers have drawn allegorical comparisons to Christianity or Christ within these works, a closer examination reveals that such interpretations miss the central themes that Herbert intended to explore. Rather than being about religious parallels, the Dune books primarily emphasize how humans manipulate these various elements to shape and influence the course of events.

Herbert's universe is a complex tapestry of interwoven narratives, centered on the desert planet Arrakis, also known as Dune. This arid world's most precious resource is the spice melange, which holds immense economic and political power. The series' central figure, Paul Atreides, is often misinterpreted as a Christ-like figure due to his role as a prophesied messiah. However, Paul's journey is not a religious allegory but a reflection of the influence of politics and power dynamics on individuals.

The Dune series intricately weaves the threads of religion and politics, demonstrating how they are intertwined and wielded to control the masses. The Bene Gesserit, a secretive sisterhood, employ religious myths to manipulate bloodlines and political outcomes. The Fremen, inhabitants of Arrakis, create a religious identity around Paul's arrival, showcasing how beliefs can be harnessed to shape social order and resistance. These examples highlight the novels' exploration of how religion and politics are tools used to further agendas.

Furthermore, the Dune books delve into the ethical and moral dilemmas that arise when power and control are at stake. Characters like Baron Harkonnen and Emperor Shaddam IV represent the dark side of human ambition and the moral compromises made to maintain authority. Herbert paints a nuanced picture, emphasizing the gray areas of human actions and intentions rather than drawing direct parallels to Christian values.

The series also delves into spirituality and the quest for a higher purpose. The desert planet's harsh environment leads to the emergence of mystical abilities, such as prescience and the spice-induced visions. These experiences are not allegorical representations of divine intervention but rather a commentary on the potential and limitations of human perception and understanding.

In conclusion, while some readers may perceive allegories to Christianity or Christ within Frank Herbert's Dune series, a comprehensive analysis of the novels reveals that such interpretations miss the central themes. The books are primarily concerned with how humans employ religion, politics, morals, ethics, and spirituality as tools to exert influence and control over events. Herbert's complex narratives, intricate characters, and thought-provoking scenarios provide a rich exploration of the multifaceted ways these elements intersect and shape the course of societies.

 

[Carborendum]

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

The water of life is harvested from a young sandworm and is likely a distillate from their bile.

Young sandworms are pre-pubescent thus unlikely associated with your connotation.

And bile is slightly alkaline akin to the vinegar that Christ was given…

Your Dune lore could use a brush-up.

I'd reflect the bolded line above back at you. I know many websites believe it to be sandworm bile.  But that is incorrect.

The water of life is defined in the glossary as the "liquid exhalation from an adolescent sandworm."  I wonder why so many fans don't read the glossary.

https://www.glossaria.net/en/dune/water-of-life

It was made by partial drowning of a young sandworm in water.  Then before it actually died, or at the moment of death, they pulled it out and have it basically cough up the water that went into its lungs.  The result was the water of life - a solution with an extremely high concentration of refined spice, so much so that to most people a tiny amount could be deadly.

So, not bile.  Mucus may be the closest analogue.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Carborendum