Exodus: Rant #1

[Jamie123]

Moving from Genesis into Exodus, I find there's a distinct change of flavour. (Has anyone else noticed this?) I find sequels are so often like this - it's the same characters (in this case Israelites, Egyptians and God) but the atmosphere surrounding them doesn't seem the same.

But the first thing that really struck me was 2:11-12, when Moses killed the Egyptian. This episode gets discussed so often - sometimes in regard to whether or not Moses was a murderer. Some say that he was not a murderer, because he only did what was necessary to protect the Israelite. But I've always found it hard to believe that Moses - the son of a princess - could have had no other option. Why didn't he just say "Hey Mr. Slave-Driver-Sticky-Beaty-type-person! My mum's a princess, so would you please, if only out of respect for her, stop hitting that man?" It seems far more likely that Moses simply "lost it".

However, if he did just "lose it", it seems strange that he checked first to make sure no one else was looking. And maybe - just maybe - his position wasn't as elevated as Charlton Heston gave us to believe. Perhaps the interview went something like this:

Moses: Hey, stop beating that man! I'll tell my mum on you if you don't!

Egyptian: What, the princess? Everyone knows she's not really your mum! You're just that oiky-poiky Hebrew kid she adopted 'cos she felt sorry for you, so go away and mind your own business!

Moses: Not till you stop hitting that man!

Egyptian: Whacha gonna do if I don't? Kill me?

Moses: If I have to, yes! (Looks around to check no one is watching.)

Egyptian: I'd like to see you try! Come on buster - kill me! It's the only way you're going to stop me beating these horrible Hebrews! Come on - I'll wipe the floor with you! (They fight, and Moses kills him.)

The problem with this, though is that if everyone knew Moses was an "oiky-poiky Hebrew kid" then very likely the king would have known too and Moses' life wouldn't have been worth thruppence. (Unless of course it was a different king, who had relaxed the "kill all Hebrew boys" policy.)

Another possibility is that this particular princess had many "sons", most of whom were Egyptian, and most people thought that Moses was just one of these.

However, consider this, from Acts 7:

Quote

And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian: For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.

What really bugs me here is that if Moses intended for the Hebrews to support him, why was he so anxious that no one was looking? If he had intended this to be a flashpoint of rebellion, wouldn't he have wanted spectators?

Of course this was written by Luke - a Greek, not a Jew - who may not have got his facts quite right. (I wonder also where Luke got the "40 years old" from, as Exodus only says "when Moses was grown" - though doubtless someone better scriptured than me will clear that up.)

Edited October 23, 2019 by Jamie123

[Midwest LDS]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Of course this was written by Luke - a Greek, not a Jew - who may not have got his facts quite right. (I wonder also where Luke got the "40 years old" from, as Exodus only says "when Moses was grown" - though doubtless someone better scriptured than me will clear that up.)

You bring up some interesting points. First, I would say Luke was probably sharing the story of Moses the way he learned about it. Since Luke was a Greek convert, I'm sure his formerly Jewish fellow saints taught him about Moses, and this may be the version of events they taught at the time.

Secondly, it's possible that they had access to records we don't today. I teach history, and it's incredibly depressing how many records have been destroyed throughout the millenia before we even had a chance to look at them. Luke may have been recording accounts he had of Moses's intention that we don't have access to today. I believe Josephus in his book Antiquities of the Jews reports Moses as being around 40 when he killed the overseer. He was a contempoary historian of Luke's, he lived from 37 to 100 AD, and he doesn't appear to be making things up out of whole cloth. He had access to some sort of historical records when he was writing his book.

My personal opinion, so take that for what it's worth, is that he killed the overseer for beating the Jews and hurting them and tried to keep it from being known by other Egyptians. Despite being alone, at least that's how I read Exodus, other Jews knew of the event, someone saw what happened and at least whispered about it. Otherwise the one who told him off in Exodus 2:14 wouldn't have known about the murder. Moses seems to have been afraid his deed was widely known and this was part of what encouraged him to flee Egypt. If he had done this to lead the Jews into rebellion by showing they could trust him to protect them from the Egyptians, why would he be afraid if it was known? Now we could be missing scripture, I believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly, and know that part of this story that clarifies what's going on might have been lost which could make Luke's account more correct. We just don't know.

At the end of the day, as a Latter Day Saint, I have access to records other than those in the Bible that I believe in. We have the Pearl of Great Price which contains things we believe were lost from the Bible that were written by Moses, as well as an acocunt of him appearing as a ressurected being to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland temple. I realize these are only of value if you belive they are true, but since I do, it's clear to me that Moses was either morally correct in killing the overseer, or God forgave him for a sin done in ignorance before he learned more of the gospel (as he undoubtedly did at the feet of his father in law Jethro).

Edited October 23, 2019 by Midwest LDS

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

First, I would say Luke was probably sharing the story of Moses the way he learned about it.

I was a bit sloppy there - I should have checked the context of the Luke quote: he is actually quoting Stephen who according to the Wikipedia page probably was Jewish. However, I don't suppose the quote is 100% verbatim, so we may still be getting Luke's interpretation of the story.

[Midwest LDS]

16 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I was a bit sloppy there - I should have checked the context of the Luke quote: he is actually quoting Stephen who according to the Wikipedia page probably was Jewish. However, I don't suppose the quote is 100% verbatim, so we may still be getting Luke's interpretation of the story.

I'm sure you are correct. Sometimes we forget the apostles, prophets, and disciples are human beings. Inspired and directed by God, but human beings nonetheless who added their own interpretations and experiences to the events they were recording.

[JohnsonJones]

There could be several answers to these questions...

Many of them simply hypothesis regarding it garnered from other stories.

Here is but one of many.

One thing the Old Testament does is to create a type and shadow, or a story of prophecy regarding a coming Messiah.  In this, Moses could also have been seen as a type and shadow.

If we use this story, then there would be a prophesied savior for the Hebrews.  This Savior would have certain qualities and would be known.  The Savior would be a prince, and perhaps the rightful ruler of the Hebrews.  He may have been born under certain conditions which fulfill the prophecy. 

Moses had a similar situation at birth to one several thousand years later where many babies were killed (at the time of the Lord it was to prevent a King of the Jews prediction or prophecy).  It could be that a similar situation was here, that this was done to prevent a Hebrew Savior that would lead the people from Captivity.  Thus, we see a type and a shadow where similar events occur. 

If this was a prophecy at the time, it would be well known to the Hebrews (and possibly also the Egyptians...indeed, if the dialogue of the above occurred where Pharaoh was trying to destroy the Male Hebrew babes due to prophecy, he and many others would have known about this).  Now, whether it was seen as Moses being the fulfillment of this when the Daughter found Moses, or if Moses later found out about the Prophecy and put it together and thought it could be him is unknown.

Most likely this prophecy came from Joseph (of the coat of many colors fame) who prophesied about his descendants or Jacob...once again...all speculative on my part.

If Moses felt he was the one prophesied he knew that he would be a Prince (or was a Prince) who was to free the Hebrew People.  He did not know the vehicle as to which this was too happen, but if prior speculation is correct, if he was trying to fulfill the prophecy than Pharaoh would probably be against him if he knew Moses was trying to fulfill it.  Thus, avenging the death was not just a matter of Moses and Murder, but stopping Moses from being the fulfillment of the prophecy to lead the Egyptian Slave force out of bondage.

Eventually Moses became this Savior, using the Power of Heaven to convince Pharaoh to release the Children of Israel.  This too is a type and a shadow.  As Moses helped to free them physically from bondage, the Lord when he came as the Savior saved the Jews (and all men) from spiritual bondage.

When Joseph Smith was doing a NT translation many things came to light in the short translation that he did.  If one reads the Book of Moses one finds far more there than an initial read of Genesis.  It is possible if he had ever gotten to do the full treatment of Exodus (or if we had it if he did) that similar thoughts and ideas would have come to light regarding the story of Moses.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Moving from Genesis into Exodus, I find there's a distinct change of flavour. (Has anyone else noticed this?) I find sequels are so often like this - it's the same characters (in this case Israelites, Egyptians and God) but the atmosphere surrounding them doesn't seem the same.

But the first thing that really struck me was 2:11-12, when Moses killed the Egyptian. This episode gets discussed so often - sometimes in regard to whether or not Moses was a murderer. Some say that he was not a murderer, because he only did what was necessary to protect the Israelite. But I've always found it hard to believe that Moses - the son of a princess - could have had no other option. Why didn't he just say "Hey Mr. Slave-Driver-Sticky-Beaty-type-person! My mum's a princess, so would you please, if only out of respect for her, stop hitting that man?" It seems far more likely that Moses simply "lost it".

However, if he did just "lose it", it seems strange that he checked first to make sure no one else was looking. And maybe - just maybe - his position wasn't as elevated as Charlton Heston gave us to believe. Perhaps the interview went something like this:

Moses: Hey, stop beating that man! I'll tell my mum on you if you don't!

Egyptian: What, the princess? Everyone knows she's not really your mum! You're just that oiky-poiky Hebrew kid she adopted 'cos she felt sorry for you, so go away and mind your own business!

Moses: Not till you stop hitting that man!

Egyptian: Whacha gonna do if I don't? Kill me?

Moses: If I have to, yes! (Looks around to check no one is watching.)

Egyptian: I'd like to see you try! Come on buster - kill me! It's the only way you're going to stop me beating these horrible Hebrews! Come on - I'll wipe the floor with you! (They fight, and Moses kills him.)

The problem with this, though is that if everyone knew Moses was an "oiky-poiky Hebrew kid" then very likely the king would have known too and Moses' life wouldn't have been worth thruppence. (Unless of course it was a different king, who had relaxed the "kill all Hebrew boys" policy.)

Another possibility is that this particular princess had many "sons", most of whom were Egyptian, and most people thought that Moses was just one of these.

However, consider this, from Acts 7:

What really bugs me here is that if Moses intended for the Hebrews to support him, why was he so anxious that no one was looking? If he had intended this to be a flashpoint of rebellion, wouldn't he have wanted spectators?

Of course this was written by Luke - a Greek, not a Jew - who may not have got his facts quite right. (I wonder also where Luke got the "40 years old" from, as Exodus only says "when Moses was grown" - though doubtless someone better scriptured than me will clear that up.)

What are we to learn from scripture?  The problem is that most scripture is written in a different era, for different customs and a different language.  I often find it amusing when someone says that they believe the "literal" meaning of scripture or that scripture should be understood "literally" and yet they have no understanding of the literal (literary) structure for the time and place in which a particular scripture was written.  Numbers to Hebrews do not mean the same as we try to understand words in our modern culture - for example the number 7 means endless.  So when forgiving others was asked the number 7 was used to explain how often we should forgive others.  Also in this context 70 us used but it does not mean 70 - it means divinely unbounded.  Keep in mind the mathematics of the Hebrews did not have the concept of infinite but the use of 7 times 70 comes close.  This literal understanding of a 7 day or period of creation also completely lost in the literal young earth religious beliefs.

The number 40 as used by Luke does not mean what you may think it means.  It means a trial or judgment.  Thus Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, Jesus fasted in the wilderness for 40 days and nights and this event with Moses when he was 40 years old.

Your effort to drill down and understand scripture is commendable but very lost and out of context when trying to use our modern context for understanding.  Nephi, that delighted in scripture, suggested that it helps to understand ancient Jewish customs and teachings (mannerism) to be able to drill down for understanding Biblical scripture.  But there is another element available to Latter-day Saints.  That is the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Since in your profile you list yourself as "Christian" you may not be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by specific intent.  You may consider contacting a local Rabii to learn more of the methods of understanding of the scriptures by the Jews.

 

The Traveler

[Jamie123]

18 hours ago, Traveler said:

The number 40 as used by Luke does not mean what you may think it means.  It means a trial or judgment.  Thus Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, Jesus fasted in the wilderness for 40 days and nights and this event with Moses when he was 40 years old.

That's very interesting indeed - thank you. I found this website about numbers in Judaism: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/judaism-numbers/. It says that:

Quote

Forty appears many times in the Bible, usually designating a time of radical transition or transformation.

However, I'm still a bit bothered by the fact that Luke was a Greek and not a Jew. Would 40 have had the same significance to him? Maybe it did - as Midwest says, he would have been in close contact with Jewish-born believers. Also he was quoting Stephen's speech to the Sanhedrin (telling the story for rhetorical purposes of course - it's not like the most learned Jews of the time would not have known this stuff).

18 hours ago, Traveler said:

You may consider contacting a local Rabii to learn more of the methods of understanding of the scriptures by the Jews.

 You know, I don't believe I've ever (knowingly) spoken to a Rabbi - though I have known a few Jews. One of my best friends from schooldays - whom I'm still in occasional correspondence with now - was a Jew. (Though as Jews go, the family was not especially "Jewish": they ate pork and celebrated Christmas, and even had a Christmas tree!)

But maybe I'll do this. Thanks.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Jamie123