Moses and the Red Sea

[romans8]

Is the reference of speaking to the Red Sea (1 Nephi 4:2) only metaphorical or does it convey that 
Moses physically spoke words to the sea? 

Why does Nephi juxtapose Laban with the Egyptians instead of just Pharaoh in the next verse? Is
this teaching Pharaoh himself did not actually drown with his army?

Matteo

[Just_A_Guy]

7 hours ago, romans8 said:

[1] Is the reference of speaking to the Red Sea (1 Nephi 4:2) only metaphorical or does it convey that 
Moses physically spoke words to the sea? 

[2] Why does Nephi juxtapose Laban with the Egyptians instead of just Pharaoh in the next verse? Is
this teaching Pharaoh himself did not actually drown with his army?

Matteo

1.  I had never caught that before.  I’d be inclined to take it literally in the absence of good reason to reject it.  (Yes, I’m aware that Exodus only mentions Moses stretching out his arm; I see little reason why it couldn’t be both.)

2.  I don’t know that Nephi is presuming to modify or supplement the Book of Exodus’s account here.  Exodus itself is sufficiently vague as to Pharoah‘s own fate that DeMille’s The Ten Commandments had him surviving the debacle at the Red Sea.  Whatever archaeology, literary analysis, or other scholarship has been able to divine or postulate about the crossing of the Red Sea or Pharoah’s fate, I don’t think the BoM really seeks to engage with that conversation (except, I suppose, that its narrative does seem incompatible with the “sea of reeds” business that secularists keep pushing).

[Carborendum]

On 4/10/2021 at 8:37 AM, romans8 said:

Why does Nephi juxtapose Laban with the Egyptians instead of just Pharaoh in the next verse? Is
this teaching Pharaoh himself did not actually drown with his army?

It was really a question of how Nephi framed the "problem at hand".  In Nephi's mind

• The challenge before him was Laban, himself.  It was not his men.
• The challenge before the Israelites fleeing Egypt was "the Egyptians", which may or may not have included Pharaoh.

It is not really a matter of it being right or wrong.  It was a question of perception.  Whether that was the reality or whatever literary parallels you wish to draw, the wording here simply reflects Nephi's perspective for each of the two situations at the time that he wrote it.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

On 4/10/2021 at 7:37 AM, romans8 said:

Is the reference of speaking to the Red Sea (1 Nephi 4:2) only metaphorical or does it convey that 
Moses physically spoke words to the sea? 

Why does Nephi juxtapose Laban with the Egyptians instead of just Pharaoh in the next verse? Is
this teaching Pharaoh himself did not actually drown with his army?

Matteo

One of the primary reasons for scripture is that we can apply lessons to ourselves and our circumstances.   This method of making scripture currently useful is referred to as "types and shadows".  With out scripture types and shadows there would be no reason for most scripture references.  And so it was that Israel was commanded to remember the deliverance from Egypt in a celebration of "Passover".  But this reference to the past also had relevance at what is called "The Last Supper" where Jesus celebrated Passover with his apostles teaching them that the deliverance from Egypt was a type and shadow of his "Atonement" which would soon take place.

In addition there are many ways to speak.  John makes reference to "The Word".  Often we think of words as verbal communication but John does something far more interesting by connecting The Word to G-d and the power of G-d.  So we may think of G-d and the power of G-d acting through his servants as a means of G-d speaking - and the Red Sea parting.  In essence this is the true act of divine "Faith".  That is; that real faith is to become a conduit for the actions (communications or word) of G-d.  Nephi clearly understood faith and was determined to become a useful conduit, through faith, for G-d to complete his work (intention of maintaining the Brass Plates for a covenant people).  

I am sometimes of the impression that many of religious nature think of faith as a power they as an individual own rather than their connection to The Word of G-d as spoken of by John.  Thus they view scripture not as the living word of G-d but more as a dead (without growth) stagnant single threaded and literal document with only one possible meaning.

 

The Traveler

[romans8]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:52 AM, Carborendum said:

It was really a question of how Nephi framed the "problem at hand".  In Nephi's mind

• The challenge before him was Laban, himself.  It was not his men.
• The challenge before the Israelites fleeing Egypt was "the Egyptians", which may or may not have included Pharaoh.

I drew a parallel because it was mentioned Nephi and his brothers fled from Laban's servants who were
pursuing them to slay them (1 Nephi 3).  In chapter 4, verse 36 expresses a future  potential danger as they
plan to escape into the wilderness with only one of these servants.  I found a good commentary indicating
Pharaoh did die in the Red Sea. But I also saw some to the contrary. I would lean toward the former. 

[Traveler]

On 4/24/2021 at 7:43 AM, romans8 said:

I drew a parallel because it was mentioned Nephi and his brothers fled from Laban's servants who were
pursuing them to slay them (1 Nephi 3).  In chapter 4, verse 36 expresses a future  potential danger as they
plan to escape into the wilderness with only one of these servants.  I found a good commentary indicating
Pharaoh did die in the Red Sea. But I also saw some to the contrary. I would lean toward the former. 

If we want to make a deep dive into history there are significant problems associated with the scripture account of Exodus - especially concerning Pharaoh.  The Egyptians kept excellent records and accounts of Pharaohs that were the human expressions and representations of their g-ds.  There is nothing in their accounts of their Pharaoh's that match anything in Exodus.  This does not mean that the Exodus did not occur - only that whatever happened did not seem important, from their point of view.  The death of a Pharaoh was important as was the result of their military conquests. 

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

On 4/24/2021 at 8:43 AM, romans8 said:

I drew a parallel because it was mentioned Nephi and his brothers fled from Laban's servants who were
pursuing them to slay them (1 Nephi 3).  In chapter 4, verse 36 expresses a future  potential danger as they
plan to escape into the wilderness with only one of these servants.  I found a good commentary indicating
Pharaoh did die in the Red Sea. But I also saw some to the contrary. I would lean toward the former. 

I did not ask why you drew a parallel. I was answering your question about why the juxtaposition.  Nothing in this post appears to address my post.

Did you intend this response to be to someone else's post, perhaps?

[romans8]

On 4/25/2021 at 10:39 AM, Traveler said:

There is nothing in their accounts of their Pharaoh's that match anything in Exodus.  This does not mean that the Exodus did not occur - only that whatever happened did not seem important, from their point of view

Are the plagues God afflicted them with mentioned in the Egyptian history you refer to?