Blessings

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, romans8 said:

Based on your comments, my mom is complicit - she did not prepare me sufficiently.

Are you kidding??? – you are telling me that your mother, being fully aware of a child molester, deliberately left you at a place she knew the child molester was present and stocking children – and she did not make any attempt to warn or protect you as a child.  It is my honest opinion that not only is she complicit – she belongs in jail, far away from caring for any innocent and venerable children.

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Indirectly punished because we are born in a fallen state due to their disobedience.

I assume then, that you do not believe that G-d is a just being.  I honestly wonder why you, or anyone else, would worship an unjust G-d.

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What are the trees of Moses 4:7-9?

It is my opinion that the trees of Moses 4:7-9 are symbolic of G-d mercy to supply for his creations all that they need.

 

The Traveler

[romans8]

On 4/22/2023 at 11:49 AM, Traveler said:

Are you kidding??? – you are telling me that your mother, being fully aware of a child molester, deliberately left you at a place she knew the child molester was present and stocking children – and she did not make any attempt to warn or protect you as a child.  It is my honest opinion that not only is she complicit – she belongs in jail, far away from caring for any innocent and venerable children.

Children are in danger every day despite any attempts to warn or protect them.  Children could be killed,
kidnapped, or harmed in other ways.  My parents knew this before they ever conceived me.  I suppose
your logic would also make other parents (including you if you had children) of being complicit parents
because they foreknew all these things and still decided to have children.

As for Adam and Eve, they had nothing to fear from the serpent as long as they remained obedient to
God.  He had already warned them of the consequences of eating from the forbidden tree.
 

On 4/22/2023 at 11:49 AM, Traveler said:

I assume then, that you do not believe that G-d is a just being.  I honestly wonder why you, or anyone else, would worship an unjust G-d.

Cain and Abel were born in a spiritually separated state from God because of what their parents did.
God is not to blame for that.

[LDSGator]

On 4/22/2023 at 11:49 AM, Traveler said:

Are you kidding??? – you are telling me that your mother, being fully aware of a child molester, deliberately left you at a place she knew the child molester was present and stocking children – and she did not make any attempt to warn or protect you as a child.  It is my honest opinion that not only is she complicit – she belongs in jail, far away from caring for any innocent and venerable children.

Yeah, I’m totally lost too. That was my impression as well @Traveler

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, romans8 said:

Children are in danger every day despite any attempts to warn or protect them.  Children could be killed,
kidnapped, or harmed in other ways.  My parents knew this before they ever conceived me.  I suppose
your logic would also make other parents (including you if you had children) of being complicit parents
because they foreknew all these things and still decided to have children.

As for Adam and Eve, they had nothing to fear from the serpent as long as they remained obedient to
God.  He had already warned them of the consequences of eating from the forbidden tree.

There are a few things that I think you have missed.  Children are not in danger every day – you can only speculate because you do not know the future.   It appears to me that you speculate about things that you do not know concerning the Eden epoch.  For example, you hold Adam and Eve responsible because G-d told them not to touch the fruit.  But the serpent said that they would not die (suffer any consequences).  How were they to know that the serpent was lying?  How could they know which was correct?  Adam and Eve did not know good from evil – G-d did not give them the knowledge you assume they should have had to make the correct choice.  How could anyone but G-d be at fault for this????  G-d knew exactly what would happen – unless you think that G-d did not know.  If G-d was ignorant, then all this is a very different matter.

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Cain and Abel were born in a spiritually separated state from God because of what their parents did.
God is not to blame for that.

Again, you are making assumptions.  You assume that Cain and Able (or for than manner anyone else) could not have been created in the same manner as Adam and Eve were initially and therefore not in the same spiritually separated (fallen) state from G-d that Adam and Eve ended up.  I would like you to tell me who you think is responsible for Cain and Able being forced (without choice?) to be children of parents that screwed up.  Who gave Cain and Able power to live?  Could they have been born to Adam and Eve without G-d making it so.  Could Adam and Eve have had children without G-d making it so?  By what power did Cain and Able come to live in a fallen state?

My point is that the Eden epoch is symbolic of something that will not be correctly understood by the literal understanding of scripture.

 

The Traveler

 

 

[romans8]

On 4/29/2023 at 6:24 PM, Traveler said:

But the serpent said that they would not die (suffer any consequences).  How were they to know that the serpent was lying?  How could they know which was correct?

It was not a matter of who (God or Satan) was lying. God had already told them not to eat from the forbidden
tree. Based on everything God had given them already, there was no reason for them to suspect God was
lying.
 

On 4/29/2023 at 6:24 PM, Traveler said:

You assume that Cain and Able (or for than manner anyone else) could not have been created in the same manner as Adam and Eve were initially and therefore not in the same spiritually separated (fallen) state from G-d that Adam and Eve ended up.  I would like you to tell me who you think is responsible for Cain and Able being forced (without choice?) to be children of parents that screwed up.  Who gave Cain and Able power to live?  Could they have been born to Adam and Eve without G-d making it so.  Could Adam and Eve have had children without G-d making it so?  By what power did Cain and Able come to live in a fallen state?

Cain and Abel could have also been created by God like Adam was created initially (in a state of being
in God's presence) but scripture reveals they were not. They were born to Adam and Eve (who were
already in a fallen state) and so they inherited that state.  

I believe Adam and Eve , like the animals, already had the power to procreate before the Fall. I do not
believe they gained this power by transgressing the command.

God gave Cain and Abel the ability to live, as He does with all humans and all life forms.

A church president taught this curse fell on all their descendants.

But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse 
could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under 
the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. 
Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual 
sins.

This church manual teaches the curse came upon everything else. The effects of the Fall were
universal.

Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth;  and it came
upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea and upon all things pertaining
to this earth” (“Instructions,” Deseret News, July 6, 1864, 318).

[Traveler]

On 5/6/2023 at 7:28 AM, romans8 said:

It was not a matter of who (God or Satan) was lying. God had already told them not to eat from the forbidden
tree. Based on everything God had given them already, there was no reason for them to suspect God was
lying.
 

According to the account in scripture – Adam and Eve had no (zero) understanding of the difference between good and evil.  I have no idea how it is that you believe from scripture that they could distinguish that what the serpent (Satan) was telling then was flawed.

I believe G-d is smart and that it would be impossible to screw up his plan for anything.  You can believe what you will – but for me --- I find it most difficult to worship a G-d that would allow someone that does not understand the difference between good and evil to be so deceived and be held responsible for what they obviously did not understand.  I believe that there is an answer – but I have not fount a suitable explanation outside of the modern revelations provided in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

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Cain and Abel could have also been created by God like Adam was created initially (in a state of being
in God's presence) but scripture reveals they were not. They were born to Adam and Eve (who were
already in a fallen state) and so they inherited that state.  

I believe Adam and Eve , like the animals, already had the power to procreate before the Fall. I do not
believe they gained this power by transgressing the command.

God gave Cain and Abel the ability to live, as He does with all humans and all life forms.

A church president taught this curse fell on all their descendants.

But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse 
could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under 
the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. 
Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual 
sins.

This church manual teaches the curse came upon everything else. The effects of the Fall were
universal.

Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth;  and it came
upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea and upon all things pertaining
to this earth” (“Instructions,” Deseret News, July 6, 1864, 318).

What you do not seem to understand is why Cain and Abel were under the same curse as Adam and Eve.  I agree that the fall was universal but outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – I have yet to encounter any “Christian” sect that understands how this could be and that whatever reason they conger up for this curse - would demonstrate that G-d is just.

I personally believe you can worship whatever you wish.  As for myself – I have no disposition to worship a unjust G-d, especially a G-d the punishes anyone for the sins of anyone else.

 

The Traveler

[romans8]

On 5/8/2023 at 12:38 AM, Traveler said:

I find it most difficult to worship a G-d that would allow someone that does not understand the difference between good and evil to be so deceived and be held responsible for what they obviously did not understand.  I believe that there is an answer – but I have not fount a suitable explanation outside of the modern revelations provided in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If Adam and Eve were not held responsible for what they did, then why does the church teach
Adam and Eve and their descendants were under the curse?

When I read Alma 42:1-2, Adam and Eve are used as an example to reveal the justice of God and
the punishment of the sinner.
 

On 5/8/2023 at 12:38 AM, Traveler said:

I have no disposition to worship a unjust G-d, especially a G-d the punishes anyone for the sins of anyone else.

2 Nephi 26:3 says "And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto 
my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and 
terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish 
because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; 
wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground 
against them"

Why does it say the wicked would perish when 3 Nephi 8:25 says the women and children 
of Moronihah were destroyed but the men, who killed and stoned the prophets, were 
spared"?

[Vort]

2 hours ago, romans8 said:

If Adam and Eve were not held responsible for what they did, then why does the church teach
Adam and Eve and their descendants were under the curse?

Perhaps it says that because they (we) were and are under the curse of a broken law. That would certainly be my guess.

2 hours ago, romans8 said:

When I read Alma 42:1-2, Adam and Eve are used as an example to reveal the justice of God and
the punishment of the sinner.

  Indeed they are.

2 hours ago, romans8 said:

Why does it say the wicked would perish when 3 Nephi 8:25 says the women and children 
of Moronihah were destroyed but the men, who killed and stoned the prophets, were 
spared"?

Please read carefully and in context. The city of Moronihah was destroyed at Christ's death, in partial fulfillment of Nephi's prophecy in 2 Nephi 26. Every living soul in that city was killed, not only the women and children.

It was the women and children who were mourned by others by relatives (possibly including husbands) who were remote at the time of the events (though it says "mothers and fair daughters", not "wives"; note that granddaughters and, depending on the culture, nieces count as "daughters"). Why were only the women being mourned? Several obvious possibilities spring immediately to mind: Perhaps the men, at least as a whole, were considered wicked and unworthy of being mourned (or of the mourning for them being recorded in holy writ). Perhaps the men were simply held responsible for the evils that befell the people, because that was the place of the men or the mindset of the members of that particular culture. Perhaps this is a ritual mourning, and the men of that culture were not ritually mourned in this global-disaster scenario. (The term "global" being used loosely here.) Perhaps in such a case, the women, the actual bearers of children and the personification of the continuation of the race, were specifically mourned as the greatest loss, a "women-and-children-first" mindset that is not historically limited to western Europeans. Perhaps the specific people at this specific place being quoted were a small family group specifically mourning for their own mothers and daughters/granddaughters whom they knew had been lost.

I again implore you, romans8, to stop this foolish game. Please quit misinterpreting and wresting the scripture to try to prove...well, I don't know what. Maybe that the Book of Mormon is false, or that Joseph Smith was a charlatan, or that we on this discussion list are all deluded fools. Your efforts in this direction will result only in harm to your own soul, possibly long-lasting or even permanent. (Well, and in irritation to the rest of us, which appears to be one of your goals.)

Edited May 13, 2023 by Vort

[Traveler]

On 5/13/2023 at 7:31 AM, romans8 said:

If Adam and Eve were not held responsible for what they did, then why does the church teach
Adam and Eve and their descendants were under the curse?

When I read Alma 42:1-2, Adam and Eve are used as an example to reveal the justice of God and
the punishment of the sinner.
 

2 Nephi 26:3 says "And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto 
my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and 
terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish 
because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; 
wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground 
against them"

Why does it say the wicked would perish when 3 Nephi 8:25 says the women and children 
of Moronihah were destroyed but the men, who killed and stoned the prophets, were 
spared"?

You are asking a good question, but it is a question that surfaces because of a partial understanding of the wisdom of G-d, His works and His great plan of redemption.  No other religion I have encountered understands how incredibly brilliant and just G-d is.  The grand principle is that we are not created at birth but existed as spiritual children of G-d in a pre-existence before we were born.  In that pre-existence, in the light of truth, all the children of G-d were presented with a plan whereby we could become fallen mortal beings and die (Death is the sure and complete knowledge of evil).  But we were promised by G-d that a redeemer (Jesus Christ) would act as proctor for G-d’s covenants and as proctor Christ would (without having sinned himself) be partially responsible for our sin and then by suffering death (because of that divine proctor responsibility) his sacrifice would be just and true (note because Jesus was the divine proctor of the covenant plan – only he and he alone could suffer for our redemption).  But because he had not sinned and because he would be the “only begotten Son of G-d” in the flesh he could overcome death and provide the means for those that had suffered death to be resurrected. 

His willing sacrifice what we partake of in the resurrection is the knowledge of good.  The title of Adam is symbolic of mankind.  This means that all the descendants of Adam and Eve entered into a covenant with G-d (through the proxy of Adam and Eve) to become fallen creatures to be redeemed by Christ.  Thus, there is no injustice to be suffered in this life because all suffering of mortals was chosen by act of individual agency to choose mortality and to suffer unto death.  Those that exercised their agency to reject this plan become the fallen angles with Lucifer and would not be able to participate in the plan of justice and mercy and obtain a perfect resurrected physical body in the eternal and immortal likeness of the Father.

I am pleased that you ask the questions so that you can know that there is a just and merciful G-d that all should worship.  There is no reason to worship the false ideas that G-d is not perfectly just.  But there is a caveat – now that you know that G-d is just – you will be held accountable for this knowledge that has been given to you to act upon according to your agency.

 

The Traveler

 

PS.  After my initial post I thought to explain the role of Satan in the Eden epoch; Satan is symbolically presented as the serpent (there is symbolic reason for Satan as a serpent) which is the father of lies. The lie of Satan was that by accepting him as our redeemer, we could obtain a knowledge of good and evil without having to suffer death.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Traveler