Chaiasmus

[SamAntone]

Hi, Sam Richardson speaking. I've given my intro in the "Introduce Yourself" database, under "I'm New to the Forum."

An evangelical pointed out that chaiasmus may have its place in the Book of Mormon, but not in the D&C, as this is a 19th Century publication, and chaiasmus was an ancient Hebrew practice. What do I tell him?

[MorningStar]

Hmm ... I hope other people will weigh in, but I think since the Bible came from God and there is chiasmus in the Bible, it's not so unusual that other revelations from Him would be worded in a similar fashion.

Don't worry. I think some of our more intelligent members will answer soon.

[Pa Pa]

Hi, Sam Richardson speaking. I've given my intro in the "Introduce Yourself" database, under "I'm New to the Forum."

An evangelical pointed out that chaiasmus may have its place in the Book of Mormon, but not in the D&C, as this is a 19th Century publication, and chaiasmus was an ancient Hebrew practice. What do I tell him?

Yes D&C has chaiasmus, let me do some research and I will list a few. Too old to do it from memory.

[HiJolly]

Yes D&C has chaiasmus, let me do some research and I will list a few. Too old to do it from memory.

Listing examples may be of interest, and may indeed be helpful in addressing the OP. Since Chiasmus is an Hebraic literary form, it is then evidence for a Hebraic source. The question is, why would it be found in the D&C, which has never been purported to be Hebraic in any sense (unless we wish to propose that God speaks Hebrew -- I think the Jewish people might agree with that, but...).

So please, do show examples.

HiJolly

[Dale]

Chiasmus is also found in 19th century writings. The objection i have read is if it's found in 19th century book's then it is not much support for an ancient Book of Mormon. FairWiki has an article answering the objection. http://www.fairlds.org I don't have the Wiki link handy.

[NeuroTypical]

In a nutshell, not all ABCC'B'A's you find are Chiasmus. Sometimes, this sort of paragraph or chapter structure will just occur randomly, not due to any specific intent.

There's more to the Hebrew poetic Chiasmus form than just ABCCBA.

[DrewM]

Hi, Sam Richardson speaking. I've given my intro in the "Introduce Yourself" database, under "I'm New to the Forum."

An evangelical pointed out that chaiasmus may have its place in the Book of Mormon, but not in the D&C, as this is a 19th Century publication, and chaiasmus was an ancient Hebrew practice. What do I tell him?

If you study this topic, the "Chiasmi" in the Doctrine and Covenants are not compelling at all.

The Book of Mormon's chiasmi, however, are extremely compelling.

I recommend you get "The Book of Mormon Reformatted According to Parallelistic Patterns" by Donald Parry, and you'll see what I mean.

[SamAntone]

Wow! Your responses were quick, and very helpful. I appreciate that.

Pa Pa, I like your avatar!

Until I get the recommended book, I now wonder: If the chaiasmus in the D&C isn't as compelling, then how did it get there? Is it coincidence (on some, I noticed there are phrases that don't fit, and you have to read through a few in order to find the next parallel item).

Someone said that if it's from the Lord, then it can contain chaiasmus. But then, why isn't it as compelling? Well, perhaps I'd better read that book before wondering so much? -- Sam

[CourtneyP]

Um....pardon me for now knowing....but what is chiasmus?

[NeuroTypical]

Um....pardon me for now knowing....but what is chiasmus?

This link has a brief introduction to Chiasmus.

Here is something that is not quite Hebraic Chiasmus, but looks similar from Dr. Seuss' One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish

My hat is old. My teeth are gold.

..I have a bird I like to hold.

....My shoe is off. My foot is cold.

....My shoe is off. My foot is cold.

..I have a bird I liked to hold.

My hat is old. My teeth are gold.

And now my story is all told.

LM

[DrewM]

Wow! Your responses were quick, and very helpful. I appreciate that.

Pa Pa, I like your avatar!

Until I get the recommended book, I now wonder: If the chaiasmus in the D&C isn't as compelling, then how did it get there? Is it coincidence (on some, I noticed there are phrases that don't fit, and you have to read through a few in order to find the next parallel item).

There are strong chiasmus and then week ones. Let me demonstrate

Here's a strong one

A) The first

B )shall be

C) Last

c) the last

b )shall be

c) first.

Every word fits into the chiasmus. It was probably intentional.

A weak one is where it's spread out and doesn't fit tightly together.

Like this:

1) I was walking down the street

when I saw a car cross

2) the road

in front of me

3) it was a red car

3) with red tinted windows.

2) It turned down the other road

1) and I then decided I should just walk home.

In this case, not even half of the words are part of the chiasmus. It is doubtful it was intentional at all.

The Book of Mormon has many hundreds of chiasmus like the first. The D&C has two or three like the second. There is no comparison at all.

[DrewM]

Here are a couple of great examples from the Book of Mormon

Mosiah 3:18-19:

(Men will drink damnation to their souls unless)

(a) They HUMBLE themselves

(b ) and become as little CHILDREN

(c ) believing that salvation is in the ATONING BLOOD OF CHRIST;

(d) for the NATURAL MAN

(e) is an enemy of GOD

(f) and HAS BEEN from the fall of Adam

(f') and WILL BE forever and ever

(e') unless he yieldeth to the HOLY SPIRIT

(d') and putteth off the NATURAL MAN

(c') and becometh a saint through the ATONEMENT OF CHRIST

(b') and becometh as a CHILD

(a') submissive, meek and HUMBLE.

Mosiah 5:10-12:

(a) And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the NAME of CHRIST

(b ) must be CALLED by some other name;

(c )therefore, he FINDETH himself on the LEFT HAND OF GOD

(d) And I would that ye should REMEMBER also, that this is the NAME

(e) that I SAID

(f)I should give unto you that NEVER should be BLOTTED OUT,

(g) except it be through TRANSGRESSION;

(g') therefore, take heed that ye do not TRANSGRESS,

(f') that the name be NOT BLOTTED OUT of your hearts.

(e') I SAY unto you,

(d') I would that ye should REMEMBER to retain the NAME

(c') written always in your hearts, that ye are not FOUND on the LEFT HAND OF GOD,

(b') but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be CALLED,

(a') and also, the NAME by which HE shall call you.

[Moksha]

I found this one the net and it sounded fun:

Sound Reversal. Because it allows for the reversal of sounds, chiasmus has a special appeal to wordsmiths and others interested in the playful use of language:

"I find Paul appealing

and Peale appalling."

-- Adlai Stevenson

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me

Than a frontal lobotomy."

-- Randy Hanzlick, title of song

[Pa Pa]

Listing examples may be of interest, and may indeed be helpful in addressing the OP. Since Chiasmus is an Hebraic literary form, it is then evidence for a Hebraic source. The question is, why would it be found in the D&C, which has never been purported to be Hebraic in any sense (unless we wish to propose that God speaks Hebrew -- I think the Jewish people might agree with that, but...).

So please, do show examples.

HiJolly

If you believe that the Bible has them and are revelations from God..."word for word" then they would appear everywhere he reveals his words. I would suggest that the method of writing scripture came from God, not the Hebrew”s...it is just at that time the Hebrew’s were the only ones God was speaking too, thus we attribute it to them.

Pa Pa

[Doctor Steuss]

Chiasmus = The Language of the Lord

We are stupid and therefore require repetition. Thank goodness G-d found a literary form that helps us in our dim-wittedness.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Chiasmus = The Language of the Lord

We are stupid and therefore require repetition. Thank goodness G-d found a literary form that helps us in our dim-wittedness.

I'm sure we had a perfect memory and learned many principles of truth much easier in the pre-mortal life. I would not say that we are stupid (though I certainly feel that way sometimes). We have a veiled mind that makes this life a challenge. Our imperfect minds forget much of this life, but when we have a perfect memory in the future of all that we have done in this life we shall see things as they really are.

[NeuroTypical]

Chiasmus = The Language of the Lord

Really? I didn't know there was any such claim made. I thought it was just a particularly beautiful form of Hebraic poetic form.

I ain't an expert, so I might be off base here...

LM

[Doctor Steuss]

Really? I didn't know there was any such claim made. I thought it was just a particularly beautiful form of Hebraic poetic form.

I ain't an expert, so I might be off base here...

LM

I was mostly being flippant. My comment was just a little nod to the title of a book; H. Clay Gorton, Language of the Lord: New Discoveries of Chiasma in the. Doctrine and Covenants.

This might be of interest (which is basically what Gorton believes... sort of):

Shipp argues that Joseph Smith did not know about chiasmus but regards chiastic and parallel structures in the Doctrine and Covenants as significant, deliberate constructions that originated in the mind of G[-]d and were communicated to Joseph Smith by revelation. He points out as evidence that Joseph Smith dictated structured revelations publicly, without opportunity for premeditated organization of thought or text. He maintains that other prophets, including Book of Mormon prophets, received structured passages from G[-]d in the same way.

From here ("Shipp" is Richard C. Shipp [and his master's thesis]).

If you think about what a Chiastic structure accomplishes, it seems natural in some ways that it would be utilized by G-d in order to communicate scriptures. Many times, scripture was transmitted orally, and in some ways (i.e. “scripture mastery”) it still is. The parallel structure of a Chiasma potentially allows for greater retention.

But, I might be off base here too (as I’m no expert either).