Book of Mormon Reading Group: 20 Nov - 26 Nov 2023 (Alma 52 - Helaman 1)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

This week's schedule:

Nov 20	Alma 52	Monday
Nov 21	Alma 55	Tuesday
Nov 22	Alma 56	Wednesday
Nov 23	Alma 58	Thursday
Nov 24	Alma 60	Friday
Nov 25	Alma 62	Saturday
Nov 26	Helaman 1	Sunday

 

Last Week:  Book of Mormon Reading Group: 13 Nov - 19 Nov 2023 (Alma 38 - Alma 51)

Thread Index

[zil2]

Alma 52

Sometimes, things don't go your way, and you just have to do the best you can manage and endure well until relief and opportunity and strength come, and you can once again move forward.

v17: Teancum may take crazy risks with his own life (sneaking into the Lamanite camp to assassinate their king), but this shows that he was unwilling to take extreme risk with the lives of his men.  I think that speaks to his credit.

Take time to carefully consider your situation.  Counsel with others.  Think outside the box.   Work with allies on all fronts.

Alma 53

I'm getting ahead because tomorrow's busy and this week is Thanksgiving, so Thursday's reading will be difficult if I don't get ahead.

v8-9: Once again, in-fighting destroys.  Find better ways to prevent and resolve contention!  And do it early rather than waiting for it to come to fighting.

v10+: The Lord blesses those who keep covenants.  Great faith brings miracles.

v18: @Jamie123, these 2000 stripling warriors (under Helaman) are often used in talks and lessons by Church members as an example of great faith (and the attributes described in following verses), and (spoiler alert) of the importance of teaching one's children to have faith.  We'll get more of their story in coming chapters.

Alma 54

v17: Don't hold multi-generational grudges!!  Also, oh, the irony - a Nephite (or technically Zoramite (v23)) is complaining about how Nephi robbed Laman (the eldest) of the right to rule, meanwhile said Zoramite is ruling the Lamanites...  If he were really so concerned, he'd step down so a true descendant of Laman could be king...

v23: Zoram would be sad.  (2 Nephi 1:30-32)

[zil2]

Alma 55

v19: Do not let the battle (of whatever sort) with your enemies harden you or make you like them; retain your virtue and integrity.

v31: Be quick to remember God, always.

[zil2]

Alma 56

v3-6: Sometimes I think about writing my letters the way these folks did, but I suspect folks would think I'm crazy¹:  "My dearly beloved fountain pen friend, Bob, Behold, that kitten which I brought away from the shelter has turned into a teenager.  Now I need not rehearse unto you his antics, for you know concerning them.  Therefore, it suffices me to tell you that he has conquered half the kitchen sink and I'm now only allowed to use the side with the disposal. ..."

¹Which I am, but it's important not to let folks think that.

v5-9: Covenant-keeping trumps otherwise noble desires.  But otherwise, never discourage noble desires (v5 & 9).  People are capable of great things until some fearful adult teaches them to fear rather than believe.

v14: It would seem Zeezrom turned his life around enough that folks named a city after him. ...for which cause we may rejoice.

v17: Be the kind of person that when you arrive, others experience hope and joy.

v21: "Now I was desirous that Klaw should come out of the sink to play; for I was not desirous to do the dishes while he made attacks upon me from his stronghold in the other half of the sink."

v22: Keep track of what your enemies are doing.  (Enemies don't have to be people.  Think figurative.)

v27: If you can't help in one way, find another way.

v46: Trust God!

v47-48: Teach your children to trust God!

v52: Mormon switches into editor mode.

v53 or 54: Back to copy mode.

v56: Don't underestimate the strength God can give you.

Alma 57

(Getting ahead cuz tomorrow's Thanksgiving!)

v15: A hint at what's to come - provisions have not been provided like they were in the past.

v16: Do the right thing, even when it's hard, scary, or dangerous.

v21: Hard as it may seem, obey with exactness.  And have faith.  Never underestimate the power of a mother.

v25-26: "...joy of our whole army..."  Celebrate blessings, even when they happen to others.

v30-36: Sometimes bad things turn out to be blessings.

[askandanswer]

This is a previously unmentioned political position. I wander what the relationship is between a governor and a judge or chief judge. If they are the same person it suggests that the role of the chief judges went further than simply judging

Alma 58:4

4 And it came to pass that I thus did send an embassy to the governor 

 

 

f they couldn't attack the Lamanites who were in the cities, why not attack the Lamanites who were out of the cities, ie, those who were delivering supplies? Did they really have a secure supply line all the way from where these supplies started their journey up until where it ended?

Alma 58:5

5 But behold, this did profit us but little; for the Lamanites were also receiving great strength from day to day, 

 

 

The Lamanites have gone from being a group of people who rebelled against their king in order not to fight, to having an innumerable and growing army.

Alma 58:8

 yea, to contend with an enemy which was innumerable.

 

Why is is that none of the 2,000 newly arrived recruits could explain why their numbers were so small or explain the changed political circumstances in Zarahemla?

Alma 58:9

9 And now the cause of these our embarrassments, or the cause why they did not send more strength unto us, we knew not;

 

Pre prayer they were fearful and discouraged, after prayer they were courageous and determined. Their circumstances before and after prayer were unchanged but they felt differently. This is the difference that prayer can make.

Alma 58:12

And we did take courage with our small force which we had received, and were fixed with a determination to conquer our enemies,

 

This is just a larger version of the same strategy that Antipus and Helaman used in chapter 56 and the Lamanites fell for it a second time.

Alma 58:22

Now this was done because the Lamanites did suffer their whole army, save a few guards only, to be led away into the wilderness.

 

I thought that around about this time the king men were in control of Zarahemla and were in league with the Lamanites. It seems as if communications between different military groups, both for the Lamanites and the Nephites were quite poor.

Alma 58:24

24 And when the Lamanites saw that they were marching towards the land of Zarahemla, they were exceedingly afraid, lest there was a plan laid to lead them on to destruction;

 

Except for verse 21. Perhaps he means only Nephite blood.

Alma 58:28

28 without the shedding of blood.

 

They had just finished a march that took them towards Zarahemla. How hard would it have been to send two men on into the city to ask for more men for the army and to find out what was going on in Zarahemla?

Alma 58:34

Now we do not know the cause that the government does not grant us more strength; 

 

 

This sounds almost like complete victory in this part of the land. The Lamanites didn't flee to other Nephite possessions they held, but fled all the way back to their own lands.

Alma 58:38

we are in the possession of our lands; and the Lamanites have fled to the land of Nephi.

[Jamie123]

On 11/20/2023 at 4:45 PM, zil2 said:

v18: @Jamie123, these 2000 stripling warriors (under Helaman) are often used in talks and lessons by Church members as an example of great faith (and the attributes described in following verses), and (spoiler alert) of the importance of teaching one's children to have faith.  We'll get more of their story in coming chapters.

I have heard of the "stripling warriors" before. I know what a "stripling" is, but I can't dissociate it from being "stripped" naked. My mental image is of a bunch of naked guys with swords and shields running around chopping people's heads off.

It's odd that Helaman should call them "little sons" - were some of them perhaps not fully grown? (They are described as "men", not "boys", though maybe in that language there was no separate word for "boy" and boys were just called "young men".) Also maybe they were "little" in age, not physical size.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Jamie123

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I have heard of the "stripling warriors" before. I know what a "stripling" is, but I can't dissociate it from being "stripped" naked. My mental image is of a bunch of naked guys with swords and shields running around chopping people's heads off.

It's odd that Helaman should call them "little sons" - were some of them perhaps not fully grown? (They are described as "men", not "boys", though maybe in that language there was no separate word for "boy" and boys were just called "young men".) Also maybe they were "little" in age, not physical size.

I'm confused.  You say you know what a stripling is.  Then you are not certain about whether they are men or boys?  

I don't know of any instance where he uses the term "little sons".

From dictionary.com: 

Stripling:  A youth.

The word stripling comes from the idea that young men have a growth spurt during adolescence, but they have not filled out their frames yet.  At that time, the tend to look like a thin strip of land or a tree that is shooting up tall, but skinny.

These boys were probably in their late teens.  Remember that in ancient Israel, a girl was a woman when she could reproduce.  A boy was a man when he could earn a living for a family.  Both such events occurred during adolescence.

If we pay attention to the timeline, we realize that it was about 12 years since the Ammonites took their oath.  We can assume that little children were not required to take such an oath because they had not been accountable at that time, we'll guess 8 years old.  So, the probable age range of the striplings would be from about 12 to 20 years old.

I'd guess this would include only the larger, stronger youth who would actually be able to fight.  I probably would have been the equivalent of 4F because I was like pre-serum Steve Rogers until just after my mission.  Then I probably wouldn't have been effective as a combatant until I was about 25. 

Meanwhile I knew three guys growing up who would have been ready for combat at around 11 years old.  If I saw them today, I would have mistaken them for 18 to 20 year-old (filled out) men.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

My mental image is of a bunch of naked guys with swords and shields running around chopping people's heads off.

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

It's odd that Helaman should call them "little sons" - were some of them perhaps not fully grown? (They are described as "men", not "boys", though maybe in that language there was no separate word for "boy" and boys were just called "young men".) Also maybe they were "little" in age, not physical size.

He also mentions his "little army" or "little force" - personally, I think it was a term of endearment for him.  But he does describe them as "very young" (56:46), and said they called him "Father".  But it wouldn't surprise me if they were teens.  So, let's see.  The events in chapter 56 are around 66-64BC.  And, that's not going to help.  It's in Alma 24 that the Anti-Nephi-Lehies take their oath, so these sons were too young to take that oath, if they were even born, but chapter 24 is placed at 90-77 BC, a pretty long time-period.  Some of these young men could be older than 24.  And, of course, depending on how old Helaman was, that could seem "very young"¹.  That "their mothers taught them" suggests that many or most of these young men were children of men killed by the Lamanites before the Anti-Nephi-Lehies came to Zarahemla.

¹Not that many years ago (maybe 5?), I took a pair of sister missionaries to dinner (cuz I don't cook meals, really).  I'd guess they were around 20, so roughly 30 years younger than I, and boy did they seem young - practically children - not just in appearance, but in their behavior and topics of discussion.

[zil2]

Happy Thanksgiving!

Alma 58

(Just because it's been 4 years since you last wrote a letter is no reason not to write one now and catch up! Break out your fountain pen and write someone a letter!)

v10: It's subtle, but note that they didn't ask just to be delivered, but for strength to do those things which would deliver them.  All too often, we want God to work magic so we don't have to exert ourselves.  Rather, we should pray that our exertions will be enough.

v11: When God reassures you, be assured - receive peace, faith, and hope - don't go on stressing and fretting when God has told you it will be OK.

v12: Instead, take courage and do all you can, trusting Him to do the rest.

v39: I don't know why it never occurred to me before, but just like Mosiah prayed mightily that God would preserve his sons who went to preach to the Lamanites (and God promised to do so), we have to believe that those same mothers who taught their sons to have complete faith in God were also praying mightily for the preservation of their sons.

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

Break out your fountain pen and write someone a letter!)

Fixed it for you  

[Jamie123]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I don't know of any instance where he uses the term "little sons".

Alma 56:30: "Antipus ordered that I should march forth with my little sons to a neighboring city, as if we were carrying provisions to a neighboring city."

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

From dictionary.com: 

Stripling:  A youth.

That's exactly what I thought it meant. I simply said the word (for me) conjured up a mental image. We don't use the word "stripling" much nowadays. If there were an "NIV" version of the Book of Mormon, I suppose it might have "juvenile" instead. But it was not supposed to be a deep insight.

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Then you are not certain about whether they are men or boys?  

I cannot quote you chapter and verse right now, but they are definitely referred to at some point as "righteous men".*

*Doubt now assails me. Perhaps I'm remembering something I read on this thread rather than in the actual BoM.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

9 hours ago, zil2 said:

Not that many years ago (maybe 5?), I took a pair of sister missionaries to dinner (cuz I don't cook meals, really).  I'd guess they were around 20, so roughly 30 years younger than I, and boy did they seem young - practically children - not just in appearance, but in their behavior and topics of discussion.

<winge>That makes you approximately four years younger than me. It sucks to get old. I wish I could be a stripling again.</winge>

[zil2]

29 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I wish I could be a stripling again.

I had a co-worker once whose previous job title (at a different company) was "Stripper".    Apparently their management either thought this amusing or hadn't spent much time thinking about how that would look on a resume.  Co-worker's previous job was stripping paint.   Had it been my co-worker's first job, he could have been a stripling stripper!

[Carborendum]

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Alma 56:30: "Antipus ordered that I should march forth with my little sons to a neighboring city, as if we were carrying provisions to a neighboring city."

How about that.  A non-Mormon taught me something about the BoM.  Impressive.

Thanks.  

I recall a man who introduced his very large and muscular brother as his "little brother."  The group kinda made fun of that. 

One man said, "That's your LITTLE brother?  I'd like to see your BIG brother."
Another said, "I believe the proper term is 'YOUNGER brother'."

Laughter ensued.

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

That's exactly what I thought it meant. I simply said the word (for me) conjured up a mental image. We don't use the word "stripling" much nowadays. If there were an "NIV" version of the Book of Mormon, I suppose it might have "juvenile" instead. But it was not supposed to be a deep insight.

The word youth is a synonym for an adolescent.  It isn't really used for pre-pubescent children.  And while stripling is not really used anymore, it does refer to someone that we might refer to as a teenager.

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I cannot quote you chapter and verse right now, but they are definitely referred to at some point as "righteous men".*

*Doubt now assails me. Perhaps I'm remembering something I read on this thread rather than in the actual BoM.

Yeah.  I'm not sure about that one.  But we refer to our teenagers at church as "the young men."  So, it's possible I suppose.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Carborendum

[askandanswer]

 

How much death could have been prevented if Moroni had written this follow-up letter sooner?

Alma 60:1

1 And it came to pass that he wrote again to the governor of the land,

 

 

This answers yesterday's question about whether the chief judge and the governor were the same person.

Alma 60:1

Pahoran, in the city of Zarahemla, who is the chief judge and the governor

 

 

t looks like both military and political leaders might have been chosen by the people.

Alma 60:1

and also to all those who have been chosen by this people to govern and manage the affairs of this war.

 

 

I think this is a judgement that Moroni is not in a position to make.

Alma 60:10

ye have neglected them insomuch that the blood of thousands shall come upon your heads for vengeance;

 

 

Here is the failure of civil government - it failed to deal adequately with this division, notwithstanding the extreme measures Moroni took in Alma 46:35

Alma 60:15

For were it not for the wickedness which first commenced at our head, we could have withstood our enemies that they could have gained no power over us.

 

 

There may have been something deeply unpopular about the system of judges or very popular about the previous monarchical system that people were still willing to lay down their lives fighting for a monarchy, against the judges, more than 70 years after the monarchy had been abolished.

Alma 60:16

Yea, had it not been for the war which broke out among ourselves; yea, were it not for these king-men, who caused so much bloodshed among ourselves; yea, at the time we were contending among ourselves, if we had united our strength as we hitherto have done; yea, had it not been for the desire of power and authority which those king-men had over us; had they been true to the cause of our freedom, and united with us, and gone forth against our enemies, instead of taking up their swords against us, which was the cause of so much bloodshed among ourselves;

 

Chapter 58 ended with some Lamanites retreating all the way back to their own lands.

Alma 60:17

17 But behold, now the Lamanites are coming upon us, taking possession of our lands,

 

 

Pahoran was indeed seeking for authority - he was seeking for a restoration of the authority that had been taken away from him by the king-men and this is something that Moroni helped him to achieve

Alma 60:18

For we know not but what ye yourselves are seeking for authority. 

 

 

The lack of communication between the political and military leaders is really hard to understand.

Alma 60:19

Or is it that ye have neglected us because ye are in the heart of our country and ye are surrounded by security, that ye do not cause food to be sent unto us, and also men to strengthen our armies?

 

 

This is a bit of a contrast to Judges 7: 5 - 7.

Alma 60:21

Or do ye suppose that the Lord will still deliver us, while we sit upon our thrones and do not make use of the means which the Lord has provided for us?

 

 

It seems as if Moroni's response to something that he disagrees with, or anything/anyone that runs counter to his political beliefs, is to kill it/them. This is what he did to the dissenters who didn't defend freedom, its what he did to the Lamanites and now he's threatening to do it to his own government

Alma 60:27

behold I will stir up insurrections among you, even until those who have desires to usurp power and authority shall become extinct.

 

 

If the sword of justice falls on those who are wicked, then surely a bigger sword will fall with greater ferocity on those who are more wicked, ie, the Lamanites and Zoramites. But this has not been the case for much of the last five or so years. I think if you are threatening a less wicked people with the sword of justice it is also incumbent upon you to explain why it has not fallen on a more wicked, more deserving people.

Alma 60:29

Behold it is time, yea, the time is now at hand, that except ye do bestir yourselves in the defence of your country and your little ones, the sword of justice doth hang over you; yea, and it shall fall upon you and visit you even to your utter destruction.

 

 

The wisdom of this strategy is not easy to see. In effect, Moroni is saying that if you don't send me more people to fight the enemy, I'm going to make you the enemy and come and fight you as well. It's usually a good idea to minimise the number of enemies you have rather than increasing the number.

Alma 60:30

Behold, I wait for assistance from you; and, except ye do administer unto our relief, behold, I come unto you, even in the land of Zarahemla, and smite you with the sword, insomuch that ye can have no more power to impede the progress of this people in the cause of our freedom.

 

 

The Lord certainly seemed to be willing to let the Lamanites wax strong in iniquity and destroy righteous people.

Alma 60:31

For behold, the Lord will not suffer that ye shall live and wax strong in your iniquities to destroy his righteous people.

 

 

I think that the propagandists appointed by Amalickiah in Alma 48 might have had a lot to do with the level of hatred.

Moroni raises an interesting question here. Is wickedness resulting from the traditions of the fathers more, less, or the same, in terms of wickedness resulting from the love of glory and the vain things of the world? How much does the source/cause of the wickedness affect culpability?

Alma 60:32

when it is the tradition of their fathers that has caused their hatred, yea, and it has been redoubled by those who have dissented from us, while your iniquity is for the cause of your love of glory and the vain things of the world?

 

 

From what we know, which is incomplete, it seems that the only evidence that Moroni has to make these accusations is that he didn't receive the number of men and the amount of supplies he needed.

Alma 60:33

 Ye know that ye do transgress the laws of God, and ye do know that ye do trample them under your feet. 

 

 

I think that Joseph Smith in Missouri and Illinois, and Brigham Young in the Salt Lake Valley provide better examples of how to deal with opposing political leaders.

Alma 60:33

If those whom ye have appointed your governors do not repent of their sins and iniquities, ye shall go up to battle against them.

 

 

These are the same proclaimed motives of many dictators and tyrants, but in this case, it was true.

Alma 60:36

I seek not for honor of the world, but for the glory of my God, and the freedom and welfare of my country.

[zil2]

14 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I cannot quote you chapter and verse right now, but they are definitely referred to at some point as "righteous men".*

*Doubt now assails me. Perhaps I'm remembering something I read on this thread rather than in the actual BoM.

Alma 53:20-21:

Quote

20 And they were all young men, and they were exceedingly valiant for courage, and also for strength and activity; but behold, this was not all—they were men who were true at all times in whatsoever thing they were entrusted.

21 Yea, they were men of truth and soberness, for they had been taught to keep the commandments of God and to walk uprightly before him.

Helaman refers to them as "my men" in a few places, but mostly as "young men" and "sons".

[zil2]

Alma 59

v2: Share good news and rejoice with those who do.  (I feel like we keep a lot of good news to ourselves too much lest people perceive it as bragging.)

v9: (and the rest of this part of the story): Don't make assumptions, stay in communication, and ask for help quickly rather than waiting until you're in over your head.

v11: The wickedness of a faction within the group can cause a lot more problems than it might seem.  Resolve problems as soon as they start.

Alma 60

SPOILER ALERT: While Pahoran wasn't directly responsible for the problem, Moroni's rebuke can still be seen as a lesson in being responsible and doing your duty.

Know your duties.  Distinguish between expected hardship and unnecessary suffering.  Work hard and be diligent (the Lord magnifies our efforts, but won't do it all for us while we site idle).  Don't let your comfort and safety make you indifferent to broader concerns or the suffering of others.  You cannot judge the righteousness of someone by their trials. Failing to make use of what the Lord has given you is sin - think of the parable of the talents.  Idleness is sin.

v25: Faith and priesthood power.

v28: Fear God, not men nor their power nor their authority.

v33: Pahoran may not be responsible, but obviously other leaders are.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

fighting for a monarchy, against the judges

If it's like the last time (and there's no reason to suppose otherwise), it was the judges themselves who were fighting against the system of judges.  They liked their power and authority too much and wanted to make it absolute.  Why enforce the law when you can be the law?  There's no evidence that they had term limits in the Nephite system of judges, but this is one good reason for such limits.  Personally, I think government types should serve a single fixed-length term and never be allowed to serve again.  Alternately, they should be required to serve in some undesirable way for at least the same duration (want to be president, great, but the four years after your term will be spent picking up litter in public parks).

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

  Personally, I think government types should serve a single fixed-length term and never be allowed to serve again.  Alternately, they should be required to serve in some undesirable way for at least the same duration (want to be president, great, but the four years after your term will be spent picking up litter in public parks).

In this part of the world, political leaders are finding ways to lessen the impact of term limits by arranging for their children to be put into powerful positions. In the Philippines which has a strict one time only, 5 year Presidential term, in their Presidential election last year the outgoing President found ways for his daughter to be elected as Vice-President. In Indonesia, which as a two term limit of 4 years each, the brother in law of the current President, in his role as Chief Justice, found a novel way to interpret the constitution to get around the requirement that you have to be at least 40 years old to stand as a candidate for Vice President. This opened the way for the President's 36 year old son to stand as Vice President in their presidential elections next February. In both countries, the Presidential children received their political training by serving as majors of large cities where their father had previously served as major, from which they then became Presidents, and in both countries, they are the youngest ever Vice Presidential candidates. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by askandanswer

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

In this part of the world, political leaders are finding ways to lessen the impact of term limits by arranging for their children to be put into powerful positions. In the Philippines which has a strict one time only, 5 year Presidential term, in their Presidential election last year the outgoing President found ways for his daughter to be elected as Vice-President. In Indonesia, which as a two term limit of 4 years each, the brother in law of the current President, in his role as Chief Justice, found a novel way to interpret the constitution to get around the requirement that you have to be at least 40 years old to stand as a candidate for Vice President. This opened the way for the President's 36 year old son to stand as Vice President in their presidential elections next February. In both countries, the Presidential children received their political training by serving as majors of large cities where their father had previously served as major, from which they then became Presidents, and in both countries, they are the youngest ever Vice Presidential candidates. 

So what you're saying is that descendants of former politicians shouldn't be allowed to run until after the last person in their family to hold office has died.  So, (for example), the president's great-grandchild can run for office.  Or, as I said, punish them for accepting the privilege of holding office.

[askandanswer]

12 hours ago, zil2 said:

So what you're saying is that descendants of former politicians shouldn't be allowed to run until after the last person in their family to hold office has died.  So, (for example), the president's great-grandchild can run for office.  Or, as I said, punish them for accepting the privilege of holding office.

A lot of the times, in the Philippines, the privileges of serving mostly flow to those doing the "serving." To some extent, that's why they want the office so much.

I'm suggesting that situations like this  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_families_in_the_Philippines  should be avoided. The current constitution of the Philippines recognises the harms of political dynasties and specifically stated that "The State shall guarantee equal access to opportunities for public service, and prohibit political dynasties as may be defined by law."  Over the years several Congressmen have presented to the Philippines Congress various bills seeking to, amongst other things, disquality electoral candidates from running for certain positions if they are related to the second degree of consanguity to certain categories of elected officials. Unfortunately, only one such bill has actually been signed into law and that only applies to elections for neighbourhood community youth councils. That law prohibits "individuals from seeking a youth council appointment who is closer than the second degree of consanguinity (have the same grandparents) from any elected or appointed official in the same area.^[4]

This article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_families_in_the_Philippines  provides a reasonably good discussion about the extent and harms of political dynasties in the Philippines. 

I'm not as familiar with the situation in Indonesia, which has a shorter history of self government, but in that short period, several political dynasties have emerged. Their Parliament passed a law in 2015 preventing relatives of incumbent Members of Parliament from running for certain political positions but that law was overturned by the Courts as being unconstitutional. I don't know if there was any family relationship between the judges who made that finding and the politicians who benefited from it, as there is at the moment between the President and the Chief Justice. https://www.asiamediacentre.org.nz/opinion-and-analysis/political-dynasties-indonesia/

Edited November 25, 2023 by askandanswer

[zil2]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I'm suggesting that situations like this ... should be avoided.

I know.  And I'm suggesting that one way to avoid such situations is to, essentially, punish people for accepting political power.  (This is not my idea, BTW, I got it from a novel by L. E. Modesitt, Jr.)  I can detail it, if you wish, but basically, if one accepted a position of power, one was required immediately thereafter to perform some service (I think for equal time, perhaps a longer time, I forget).  The service was of a type that benefited the community and was neither glamorous nor rewarding beyond the fact that selfless service is actually rewarding.  The modern equivalent would be something like cleaning litter from the side of the freeway.  Obviously this is never going to happen in reality any more than politicians are going to make or keep laws that would limit their power and unjust privileges.  In other words, we're daydreaming here.

If we want to get realistic, then this is my only hope:

Quote

D&C 58:22 Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.

[zil2]

I have created next week's thread:

 

[zil2]

Alma 61

v8: I imagine they were scrambling for a while, but clearly Pahoran has a good source of intelligence if he knows about this correspondence and alliance.

v9: A demonstration of how we ought to handle unwarranted criticism.

v19: Counsel with others as soon as possible.

v21: Don't just encourage others, strengthen them in the Lord.  Pep talks are all well and good, but encouraging faith and keeping commandments and covenants is better.

Alma 62

I suppose some people have to suffer a while before they understand the value of freedom.

v40: Like Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord spares places and peoples because of the righteous among them.  (Beware when you're the only righteous person left!)

v41: Don't let your afflictions harden you, rather, be humble, grateful, and turn to God for help through them.

v49-51: Don't let your blessings turn you away from the source of those blessings!  Pray continually.

[askandanswer]

I guess this is better than contending about whether they should have judges or kings.

Helaman 1:2

therefore there began to be a serious contention concerning who should have the judgment-seat among the brethren, who were the sons of Pahoran.

 

 

Both roles in the one person. I'm not sure if there were any checks and balances in place, similar to what the Romans had at this time.

Helaman 1:5

 Pahoran was appointed by the voice of the people to be chief judge and a governor 

 

 

These Nephites sound like difficult people to govern.

Helaman 1:9

Now when those people who were desirous that he should be their governor saw that he was condemned unto death, therefore they were angry,

 

 

I think this is the first episode of political assassition in peacetime that we encounter in the Book of Mormon although it nearly happened between Gideon and King Noah.

Helaman 1:9

Book of Mormon

I think this is the first episode of political assassination in peacetime that we encounter in the Book of Mormon although it nearly happened between Gideon and King Noah.

Helaman 1:9

 they sent forth one Kishkumen, even to the judgment-seat of Pahoran, and murdered Pahoran as he sat upon the judgment-seat.

 

 

I wander how many of these Lamanites had made an oath in the previous battle not to fight again against the Nephites and how many of them were people whose lives the Nephites had spared.

Helaman 1:14

14 that the Lamanites had gathered together an innumerable army of men,

 

 

So once again you have a Nephite dissenter leading Lamanite armies against the Nephites.

Helaman 1:16

Therefore, the king of the Lamanites, whose name was Tubaloth, who was the son of Ammoron, supposing that Coriantumr, being a mighty man, could stand against the Nephites

 

 

Internal conflict and division about political matters had been the major reason for their previous military difficulties as well.

Helaman 1:18

And it came to pass that because of so much contention and so much difficulty in the government, that they had not kept sufficient guards in the land of Zarahemla;

 

 

This reminds me of the German blietkreig during the second world war with their initially very rapid advance into Poland and elsewhere.

Helaman 1:19

and their march was with such exceedingly great speed that there was no time for the Nephites to gather together their armies.

 

 

And this reminds me of recent Hamas activities in southern Israel

Helaman 1:20

Therefore Coriantumr did cut down the watch by the entrance of the city, and did march forth with his whole army into the city, and they did slay every one who did oppose them

 

 

It looks like Coriantumr had taken a crash through or crash approach and he ended up crashing along with those he was travelling with. A costly blunder for both sides.

Helaman 1:32

And thus had Coriantumr plunged the Lamanites into the midst of the Nephites, insomuch that they were in the power of the Nephites,

 

 

I think I would have found it to be difficult to take this approach. Having shown peace and largeness of soul in the Alma wars does not seem to have helped the Nephites in any way. I would have felt inclined to reduce the likelihood that these Lamantes would ever be involved in future wars against the Nephites.

Helaman 1:33

 And it came to pass that Moronihah took possession of the city of Zarahemla again, and caused that the Lamanites who had been taken prisoners should depart out of the land in peace.