Book of Mormon Reading Group: 13 Nov - 19 Nov 2023 (Alma 38 - Alma 51)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

This week's schedule:

Nov 13	Alma 40	Monday
Nov 14	Alma 43	Tuesday
Nov 15	Alma 43	Wednesday
Nov 16	Alma 46	Thursday
Nov 17	Alma 47	Friday
Nov 18	Alma 49	Saturday
Nov 19	Alma 51	Sunday

 

Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 06 Nov - 12 Nov 2023 (Alma 26 - Alma 37)

Thread Index

[zil2]

Alma 38

I think perhaps Shiblon, the middle son who only gets 15 verses of counsel, represents the majority of us, quietly going about doing our duties, not causing problems and also not called to lead.  Perhaps these 15 verses should therefore get close attention for those of us somewhere in the middle of the followers of Christ.

v1: The Lord's promises are to all.

v2: Be steady and faithful in keeping the commandments unto the end.

v3-4: Patience and long-suffering required - there will be trials.

v5: If you want the Lord to deliver you, you must first trust in God.  Sometimes, trust in God is the delivery.

v6-9: Sometimes, sharing personal experience has a more profound impact than teaching gospel principles alone.

v10+: Keep up the good works, embrace virtue, steer clear of vice, be humble.

Alma 39

v1, v11-12: Sin is double sin when it sets a bad example for others, hindering their own spiritual progress.

v2: Pride leads to other sins!

v9: Repent, forsake sins, exercise self-control.

v10: Keep company with people who will set a good example and help you avoid sin.

v13: The hard part of repentance - facing those you've harmed.

v16-19: All people need to learn the gospel of Jesus Christ.

v17: (repeat) All souls are precious to God.

Alma 40

v3: Sometimes, you have to inquire diligently to learn / understand the things of God.

v8: "time only is measured unto men" - this is to help keep us from wasting it.  God needs no time because he never wastes it.  (Zil's speculation)

v15: "there are some..." - speculation and interpretation has been alive and well for millennia.

The resurrection is real.  Believe in Christ and follow him so that can be a happy thought.

[askandanswer]

It looks like I need to pay closer attention to the readings for the week. I remembered that this week started with Alma 40, yesterday, so I figured that todays' reading, without checking, would be Alma 41 and that's what I read this morning. 

The happiness may indeed be endless but I anticipate that there will be different degrees of happiness. We will probably all feel happy but will everybody feel as happy as everybody else?

I think its only a tiny minority who will come forth to endless misery.

Alma 41

In the Resurrection men come forth to a state of endless happiness 

 

 

There are certainly times when wickedness seems like happiness. A lot of people seem to enjoy their wickedness. This is referred to in Proverbs 9: 16 - 18

16 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

17 Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.

18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of ahell.

Alma 41

In the Resurrection men come forth to a state of endless happiness or endless misery—Wickedness never was happiness

 

 

This is imprecise. In a well-lived life, throughout that life, a person should be consistently and successfully working to change characteristics and attributes, to develop new ones and discard old ones. Presumably the ones we end up with after the resurrection are the ones we had at the time of death rather than the ones we had earlier in life.

Alma 41

Every person receives again in the Restoration the characteristics and attributes acquired in mortality. 

 

 

It seems like the resurrection, and associated events, must have been quite a topic of discussion amongst some of Alma's associates.

Alma 41:1

for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing.

 

 

This verse might provide some insight into an aspect of justice. Alma here seems to be saying that it is a requirement of justice that the soul of man be restored to its body. This restoration is part of the deal that was agreed to between God and His spirit children that we now call the Plan of Salvation. The implication of what Alma is saying is that if there is any variation from the Plan of Salvation, any change to the deal that has been agreed to, such as the soul, or more correctly, the spirit, not being restored to the body, that would be unjust. This suggests that there are some aspects of justice that are local and variable, and relative to a specific set of circumstances, rather than justice being absolute and unchanging. If there had been no Plan of Salvation, then it would have been not unjust for there to be no restoration of spirit to body. However, there is a plan, based on an agreement between God and His spirit children, and because as part of this agreement our bodies and spirits will be restored and reunited, then it would be unjust if this restoration did not happen. So the unjustness stems from not keeping one's word, possibly with little or no regard to the specifics of what the deal actually is. If we took things a little further, perhaps we could look at this as an example of how God interacts with the universal law that even He is subject to. Perhaps the universal law says you have to keep your word, but its up to you, in your own local and specific context, ie, for this God, in this universe, and under this particular plan of salvation, to decide what your word is. Ether 3:12 might offer some support for this idea:

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

Alma 41:2

2 I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself.

 

In the same sentence, Alma refers to two different criteria by which we will be judged. He starts off by saying we will be judged according to our works. And then he immediately adds that we will be judged according to our works and the desires of our heart. So if we are judged according to our works and our desires, why did Alma start this sentence by suggesting that we will be judged only according to our works? Did the second part of the sentence, where he mentions about being judged according to the desires of our heart come to him as inspiration, as a prompting from the Spirit while he was in the act of talking? Or was it perhaps added when the record was being written, or engraved?

Alma 41:3

3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, 

 

 

This is interesting. According to verse 3 we are judged according to our works and our desires, if they are good. In verse 4, when it talks about those whose works have been evil, there is no reference to desires.

Alma 41:4

4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil.

 

 

It sounds like everyone gets what they both want and deserve. If we all get what we want, I don't see why one kingdom is considered to be better than another.

The focus of this verse is on desires rather than actions.

Alma 41:5

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

 

 

There are several verses in here referring to the importance of desires in the judgement process.

Alma 41:6

6 If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days,

 

 

Joseph Smith used very similar terminology for describing a very similar situation. Here, Alma is describing those who will be delivered from that endless darkness of night. In doing so he uses the phrase "These are they." In Doctrine and Covenants Joseph Smith describes those who will receive the various degrees of glory. In doing so he repeatedly uses the phrase "they are they."

Alma 41:7

7 These are they 

 

 

There seems to be many different ideas floating around about the final judgement. Here, Alma is suggesting that we will judge ourselves. Elsewhere in the Book of Mormon, in 3rd Nephi, we are taught that the people of the American continent at this time period will be judged by the 12 disciples who Jesus chose, who in turn will be judged by the 12 apostles He chose in Jerusalem. And in other places it is suggested that Christ will be doing the judging. More recently, in his closing address during the Sunday afternoon session of October 2023 General Conference President Nelson suggested that we make our own decisions about where we will end up after this life.

Alma 41:7 for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 56:4 would seem to suggest otherwise. Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.

Perhaps the fact that Alma 41:8 is talking about decrees, and Doctrine and Covenants 56:4 is talking about commands makes something of a difference.

Or perhaps the reason why some need to be revoked is because they are unalterable. Maybe decrees or commands can be revoked or replaced but not altered.

Alma 41:8

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable;

 

 

This is another example of imprecision. How much sin does it take before it can be said that one is wicked? It seems to be that there is an ability to repent in between death and judgement. No person is perfect, or without sin at the time of death, but no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven and God cannot look on any sin with the least degree of allowance. So somewhere along the way there must be a way of removing through repentance, the sins we are guilty of at the time of death.

 

I think this is interesting. I believe that most, and more likely all, who inherit the telestial kingdom will be both sinful and happy. They are unlikely to be as happy as they who inherit a kingdom of greater glory, but I think that neither are they likely to be unhappy. I think that they who inherit the telestial kingdom will be restored from sin to a degree of, or form of, happiness.

Alma 41:10

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

 

 

There might be something tricky going on here with the way Alma is defining and using the word restoration. These verses, to me, seem to suggest that Alma is defining the use of the word restoration to mean to bring something back to its original condition, without any change. Alma in these verses seems to be talking about a restoration of our character, our personality, our traits and behaviours and desires. He is saying that whatever our character, personality, etc, we have now in mortality will be restored to us in the resurrection. In these verses, the restoration is used to refer to a process of returning like to like. I'm comfortable with that use of the word restoration. However, previously in this chapter, in verse 2 he used the word restoration to refer to the body being restored to the soul. This is inconsistent with how he has used or defined the word restoration in these verses because the body to which the soul is being restored is a resurrected body, different in many key ways from the body which we have in mortality. The way Alma uses the word restoration in verse 2 - to describe the joining of spirit to an immortal, resurrected body - is different from how he has used it in these verses - to describe a situation of returning like to like, with a continuation of the same characteristics from mortality into immortality.

Alma 41:12–13

And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by askandanswer

[zil2]

Alma 41

v1: Don't "wrest" the scriptures.  Learn them from start to finish sufficient that you can discern their meaning because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

v3-4: Yesterday, @askandanswer noted that the "good" side includes "desires of their hearts" but not the "evil" side.  IMO, this is because the desire is required for it to be good.  See Moroni 7:5-10 (which directly states this) and D&C 64:34 (which implies it), and all the scriptures which talk about intent and sincerity.  If a person with sincerely good intent does something which ends up evil, it's a mistake or a tragedy, not evil.  Repentance may be needed, but I believe that evil is determined by the heart.  Also, see all the scriptures about how we are to offer a broken heart and contrite spirit - when you have those, you can't have evil intent.  Intent matters to the Lord.

v7: @askandanswer also mentioned this verse.  IMO, "they are their own judges, whether to do good or evil" is equivalent to "they can decide for themselves whether to do dood or evil" - I don't think it necessarily refers to Judgement Day.

v8: The Book of Mormon often contains phrases equivalent to "whosoever will may" - we have our agency, we are able to choose. (again in 42:27)

v10-11: Obviously, Alma is using a "higher, holier" definition of happiness compared to how many in the world would use this word.  They may think they are happy in their sins, but they are not.  I once went to a party where everyone else was consuming alcohol.  As the evening went on, everyone else thought they were having great fun.  They were smiling and laughing.  It was the most boring party I've ever attended.  They weren't having fun, they just thought they were.  This is how I imagine the "happiness" of sin - an illusion, a deception.

v14: This verse makes it clear (to me) that the act is the reward.  If you divide the verse in half on this phrase: "and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward" and compare what comes before to what comes after, you will see that it essentially says, "do this" and your reward is to become the sort of person who "does this".  (I studied this out at length and have several linked verses, but everything in the gospel testifies of this to me: We don't live the gospel and then receive some other thing as our eternal reward.  Our reward will be to become the sort of person who lives the gospel.

v15: Conversely, sin and you will become the sort of person who sins.

Alma 42

Many of Corianton's thoughts (as relayed in these chapters) make it clear that he's quite young.  I wonder how young.  Children often think of justice as unfair.  Part of our transition into adulthood is to recognize both that life is unfair and that God is merciful beyond measure.

v8: The fact that you're going to die is not of immediate or paramount concern.   Your spiritual state is far more important. (v9)

v10: Experiencing weakness, temptation, sin, and repentance are all necessary, therefore, as Paul encouraged, "come boldly unto the throne of grace".  It's not like all this isn't part of the plan, it's not like our Father and our Savior don't know what's happening, or didn't plan for it all.  So don't avoid the very thing designed to help you through it - come boldly pleading for that grace.

v11: Misery isn't something Satan inflicts (though he suffers it and desires everyone suffer it), it's a natural consequence of being cut off from the presence of God.  I suspect we have no earthly idea just how blessed we are through the Light of Christ.

v13: The natural man wants mercy to destroy justice.

v15, 25: Some people have opined that God could just save us all, if he wanted (without Christ's Atonement).  These verses make it clear that this isn't the case.  An atonement had to be made in order to bring mercy into the picture, and mercy and justice must both be applied correctly.

v16+: Certain things can only exist in combination with other things.  Take one out and the rest collapse into meaninglessness.

v29: Many people have trouble forgiving themselves despite sincere repentance.  This verse makes it clear that we shouldn't let our sins trouble us beyond repentance.

v30: Don't deceive yourself about your own sins - confront them boldly, too.  Be humble.

v31: Do the work God calls you to do.

Similar to the previous chapter, this one teaches me that the point of repentance is to help you become a type of person - the type who can dwell with God.  The mercy and justice part are good and necessary, but just as important is our becoming a different person - overcoming the natural man.

(Busy today, so I will save all of 43 for tomorrow.)

[zil2]

Alma 43

The beginning of the war chapters and the introduction of Captain Moroni (not to be confused with Moroni¹).  Lots of violence ahead.  In these chapters, it can be a lot harder to pick out lessons for how to be a disciple of Christ, though they're there.  There are patterns and themes to be found and turned into lessons, though.

v1: You know you're dedicated to the Lord when you cannot rest, but must go out and teach the gospel.

v2: IMO, "holy order of God" tells me they had the Melchizedek Priesthood.

v4: Political lesson - dissenters, traitors, are a grave threat.  Right now, I see this less in conventional warfare and more in ideology - we are fighting a different sort of "cold war" right now.

v5: Just gonna note the name Zerahemnah to help me remember it (we go through names quickly in the war chapters).

v7-8: When your goal is to preserve hatred and enslave, you can be pretty sure you're far gone in wickedness.

v11: Another sign of pure evil: you despise those who won't fight you, but will lie down and die at your hand.

v13-14: The way I read this, just the descendants of the priests of Noah ("those descendants") were almost as numerous than the Nephites - never mind the Lamanites and dissenters (cuz everywhere else, the Lamanites always outnumber the Nephites by far).  I think Mormon intentionally wants to point our minds to the story in the footnotes (though obviously he had nothing to do with the footnotes): 2 Kings 6:8-18.  At the very least, he wants to remind us of the power of God and the blessings God pours out on the faithful.

v18-19: If you have to go to battle (and sooner or later, all of us have to go to some sort of battle), prepare yourself.  (This is a common theme throughout the war chapters - the importance of preparing yourself and maintaining your preparations.)

v23: Do all you can, counsel with the Lord, and follow the prophet.

v26: You should join in the defense of your own land (or freedom or faith or family or whatever).

v35: @Jamie123, this Lehi will be a major player in the war chapters - the main Nephite military leaders are Moroni, Lehi, Teancum, and later Helaman (eldest son of Alma, to whom Alma turned over the records back in chapter 36).

v38: An example of an engrave-o (type-o, write-o).  I suspect Mormon was often exhausted when working on his abridgement.

v49: Never underestimate the power of God, especially when his people are one.

v54: Cliffhanger!

 

¹ son of Mormon (who compiled the Book of Mormon).  This Moroni finished his father's work by adding to the book of Mormon (third to the last book in the Book of Mormon), abridging the 24 Jaredite plates mentioned in earlier chapters into the book of Ether, and writing the book of Moroni (last in the Book of Mormon).  I suspect Mormon named his son after Captain Moroni.  Remember Mormon lived in a time of constant warfare, when the Nephites were destroyed, and that may impact how he abridges this section.

[Jamie123]

On 11/14/2023 at 5:23 PM, zil2 said:

I once went to a party where everyone else was consuming alcohol.  As the evening went on, everyone else thought they were having great fun.  They were smiling and laughing.  It was the most boring party I've ever attended.  They weren't having fun, they just thought they were.

How do you know they weren't having fun? All you really know is that you weren't. And that's hardly surprising: there are few things more irritating than a drunken person when you yourself are sober.

(Just playing Devil's advocate. I'm not suggesting drunkenness is good.)

[zil2]

5 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

How do you know they weren't having fun?

Because I was observing their behavior.  Nothing they were saying or doing was in the least bit interesting, let alone fun.  (Some of what they were saying and doing was incoherent.)

[askandanswer]

This happened 72 years before the birth of Christ. Its interesting that the name was Christian rather than Christite. In Jeruslame, it didn't happen until after His death.

Alma 46

True believers are called Christians

 

Given the prominent role of the tribe of Joseph in the restoration I think much more than a remnant was preserved.

Alma 46

A remnant of Joseph will be preserved

 

This sounds extreme. Its like killing someone over a difference in political or religious beliefs.

Alma 46

Those who will not support the cause of freedom are put to death.

 

This is another example of religious preaching causing deep social/political divisions. It really makes me think more about the idea that preaching the word is a good way to resolve social/political disunity. In somes cases it seems to but in other cases it just seems to make things worse.

We see later in this chapter, in verse 35, that this is exactly what Moroni did. One difference here is that Amalickiah and his supporters wanted to kill those who were opposed to them, and Moroni actually did kill or cause to be killed, those who were opposed to him. 

Alma 46:2

 they were exceedingly wroth, insomuch that they were determined to slay them.

 

It might not be too far-fetched to trace Amalickiah's rise to political power, and the years of death and warefare that followed, to his leadership of those who were opposed to the preaching of the workd.

Alma 46:3

3 Now the leader of those who were wroth against their brethren was a large and a strong man; and his name was Amalickiah.

 

The strategy for those seeking power seems to be to appeal to the many people who have a small amount of power and encourage them to support a person's bid to become all-powerful, and if that person is sucessful in their bid, that person will then increase the power of those who previously only held a small amoutn of power.

Alma 46:5

And they had been led by the flatteries of Amalickiah, that if they would support him and establish him to be their king that he would make them rulers over the people.

 

I suspect there is a connection between, on the one hand, the speed with which these people turned from good to bad, and on the other hand, the efficacy of their religious teachers, priests, and practices. I suspect that better teachers and leaders might have been able to slow this turn.

Alma 46:8

Thus we see how quick the children of men do forget the Lord their God, yea, how quick to do iniquity, and to be led away by the evil one.

 

Would the early assassination of Amalickiah meet the test outlined in 1st Nephi 4? His early death may have prevented the deaths of tens of thousands.

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

Alma 46:9

Yea, and we also see the great wickedness one very wicked man can cause to take place among the children of men.

 

One man was all it took to undo the work of many, many priests and teachers and the long-established religious and political structures that held Nephite society together? Perhaps those structures had shallow roots or were planted in poor soil or they were not well cared for.

Alma 46:10

Yea, we see that Amalickiah, because he was a man of cunning device and a man of many flattering words, that he led away the hearts of many people to do wickedly;

 

It seems as though Moroni had concluded that the preaching by Helaman and his brethren was no longer sufficient to unite the nation and protect the people and that force of arms would be required. They moved from relying primarily on the word to reliance on the sword. But then, we also see that this man of arms relied on God, as evidenced by his mighty prayer.

Alma 46:13

And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

We see many of these traits today in the West where there are those who wish for power and will do anything to obtain it.  Just like Amalakiah did, we have those who would overthrow the liberty and freedom of the nations of the West so that they can establish dictatorships, Oligarchies, and basically overthrow the freedom of the people in favor of their own rules and dictates.

I don't know what the solution is, but it is ironic that many of those who are trying to overthrow our freedoms and liberties do it in the name of morality, even as they try to steal our freedom to believe as we wish and to choose as we desire from us.

[Carborendum]

On 11/14/2023 at 11:23 AM, zil2 said:

Alma 41

v1: Don't "wrest" the scriptures.  Learn them from start to finish sufficient that you can discern their meaning because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Quote

 To Wrest:

1. To obtain or remove by pulling with twisting movements.
2. To take possession of forcefully; seize or usurp.
3. To gain or extract with persistent effort; wring.

I observe the words "remove", "twisting", forcefully, "usurp", & "wring".

We certainly do what we can to learn every little bit about the scriptures.  So, we want to spend effort in really understanding what it says.  But it goes overboard when we try to remove the words out of context and twist them into a meaning that was never intended. If we do, then we are forcefully usurping the words of the Lord and seizing the authority for ourselves.  Then we wring ourselves and others into knots when the interpretation doesn't fit with all that we know about the Lord from the remaining body of scripture and other revealed word.

[zil2]

Alma 44

v1-8: Maybe I'm just a cynic, but in the modern world, first, no one would have stood there and listened to Moroni's speech - they would have started ranting and raving at him; and second, no one would trust a simple oath - today Zerahemnah would have made the "oath" while plotting his next attack.

v12-15: I suspect removing Zerahemnah's scalp was an accidental blow - just the way things came out, and not an intentional scalping, but I've often wondered if this event isn't the one that led to the Native American tradition of scalping.  (And just as a side note, I think it was very generous at the end of verse 12 to leave off the "...screaming in pain." part. )

v19-20: I suppose a more personal lesson to take from this is that when you are caught in the wrong and offered reconciliation, accept the offer - don't let your pride cause you to make matters worse.

v24: It might be easy to note that this is the end of what Alma the younger wrote.

Alma 45

This is Helaman the son of Alma the younger.  The book of Helaman (which follows Alma) is named for this Helaman's son, Helaman (we could say Helaman II or the second, or the younger, but we don't).

v1: Fasting, prayer, and worship of God are good companions to rejoicing.  If those can't be part of your rejoicing, it may be that you shouldn't be rejoicing in whatever it is you're rejoicing in...

v9: It's not always appropriate to share spiritual knowledge publicly.  Learn when to keep sacred things to yourself so that God will trust you with more.

v10+: Don't dwindle!

Alma's story should encourage anyone who feels like they cannot be forgiven of their sins.  If Alma can, so can you.  (For that matter, the same could be said of the people of Ammon / Anti-Nephi-Lehies.)

v23-24: Don't let your wealth / success / education / whatever cause you to think you know better than your Church leaders.  None of that equates to being guided by the Spirit.

Alma 46

v4: When you decide you want to be the supreme ruler of a people, there's something wrong with you.  (Of course, by then, you're not going to believe that, so there's little point in telling you.  But if you're not there yet, don't go there... )

v4: Be aware of the addictive influence of power and do all you can to counter the addiction before it takes hold.  (You don't have to be a judge or a president or a king for this phenomenon to happen - it can happen to a Bishop, or a police officer, or a sys admin.)

v8: This is why we are commanded to always remember Christ - because if we go one day without thinking of him, pretty soon we're going two days, and so on...

v9-10: It doesn't take a majority, it just takes a small number of wicked folk to lead people away from what's right.  Don't dismiss the enemy just because their numbers seem small.

v12: Righteous motives.

v13: @askandanswer commented on the use of the word "Christians" - I would note two things: first, the -ites were descendants of the person whose name preceded the -ite, so "Christite" doesn't make sense; second, Joseph Smith translated this into English.  Whatever the original word, the most appropriate 1800s English word to convey the meaning was "Christian".  We can assume that the original word also meant followers or disciples of Christ.

v15: We should be glad to bear the name of Christ.

v18: Trust that God will preserve the faithful followers of Jesus Christ (and be one of them).

v20-21: When called to defend the right, come running!

v21: Do you suppose the women folk were a bit upset by this "rending their garments" tradition?  I mean, it must have been hard work to make clothes and then have to mend them...

v29: Catch dissent and wickedness early, before the followers have lost their sense of reason.

v39, 41: Have faith in Christ until the end.  Go out happy.

[Jamie123]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:48 PM, zil2 said:

v18-19: If you have to go to battle (and sooner or later, all of us have to go to some sort of battle), prepare yourself.  (This is a common theme throughout the war chapters - the importance of preparing yourself and maintaining your preparations.)

It's the wise and foolish virgins. Which we had at our church last Sunday. (I mean the story, not the actual virgins.)

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

(I mean the story, not the actual virgins.)

[Carborendum]

7 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

virgins. Which we had at our church last Sunday. (I mean the story, not the actual virgins.)

Well, that's pretty sad.  Speaks kinda poorly about your congregation.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Carborendum

[Vort]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

26 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

virgins. Which we had at our church last Sunday. (I mean the story, not the actual virgins.)

Well, that's pretty sad.  Speaks kinda poorly about your congregation.

Reminds me of the old joke about the educational institution an hour north of my alma mater:

[Educational institution an hour north of my alma mater] planned to present a dramatization of Luke 2, but they couldn't find three wise men or a virgin.

It occurs to me that that joke might work equally well for almost any institute of higher education not named with the name of my alma mater.

[Jamie123]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

It occurs to me that that joke might work equally well for almost any institute of higher education not named with the name of my alma mater.

In the UK, we used to have the "binary divide", in which all larger higher education establishments were either universities or polytechnics. In theory, a degree from a university was exactly equivalent to the same degree from a polytechnic, but university degrees had a greater perceived status. This was partly because universities had independent degree-awarding powers, whereas all polytechnic degrees were awarded by a central body called the CNAA. This system was ended by John Major's government in the early 1990s, and all former polytechnics now have the status of universities.

That explained, on with the joke...

A university student and a polytechnic student go to the bathroom together. The polytechnic student washes his hands, but the university student does not. The polytechnic student asks the university student: "Don't they teach you at university to wash your hands after peeing?" The university student replies: "Don't they teach you at polytechnic not to pee on your hands?"

When I was a student (at a university) that was considered an amazingly funny joke "against" polytechnic students. No one ever saw that it worked just as well with "university" and "polytechnic" reversed!

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

A university student and a polytechnic student go to the bathroom together. The polytechnic student washes his hands, but the university student does not. The polytechnic student asks the university student: "Don't they teach you at university to wash your hands after peeing?" The university student replies: "Don't they teach you at polytechnic not to pee on your hands?"

When I was a student (at a university) that was considered an amazingly funny joke "against" polytechnic students. No one ever saw that it worked just as well with "university" and "polytechnic" reversed!

I first heard this as a WWII-era joke. "In the Navy, they teach  us to wash our hands after we pee." "Well, in the Marines, they teach us not to pee on our fingers."

[askandanswer]

Using treachery, murder and intrigue are common techniques in somes times and places to gain power but Amalickiah demonstrated particular skill in the use of these techniques by becoming king of a people who were the enemy of the people from whence Amalickiah came.

Alma 47

Amalickiah uses treachery, murder, and intrigue to become king of the Lamanites

 

 

This is a bit surprising. Usually the Lamanites seemed willing to battle against the Nephites at the drop of a a hat.

Alma 47:2

2 And it came to pass that when the proclamation had gone forth among them they were exceedingly afraid;

 

 

It seems to be a rash move to give command of part of your armies to someone who has only recently made the move from the land of the enemy.

And it seems like the king is not too interested in what his people think or feel. I'm a bit surprised that the king gave more weight to the words and wishes of one traitorous dissenter than he gave to the wishes of the majority of his people.

Alma 47:3

And now it came to pass that the king was wroth because of their disobedience; therefore he gave Amalickiah the command of that part of his army which was obedient unto his commands, and commanded him that he should go forth and compel them to arms.

 

 

It seems like the Lamanite king was a bit out of touch with his people.

Alma 47:2

And it came to pass that they would not, or the more part of them would not, obey the commandments of the king.

 

 

They kept their weapons in one particular place? This seems a bit inconvenient, particularly if they were ever needed in a hurry.

Alma 47:5

therefore they fled to Onidah, to the place of arms.

 

 

So they go to Onidah to get their weapons and then they go to another place for battle. If this is typical of their military practices it would help to explain why they so frequently lose to the Nephites.

Alma 47:7

And it came to pass that they had gathered themselves together upon the top of the mount which was called Antipas, in preparation to battle.

 

 

Amalickiah used the king's lust for power and control to end the king's power and control and life. The king (supposedly) loaned some of his power to Amalickiah in the form of control over part of his army in the hope or the intention that Amalickiah would use that power to gain control over that part of the population that was resisting him and he would then use all his population to gain control over all the Nephites as well. In the end, his lust for power led to the loss of his life. Clever Amalickiah, dumb king. And eventually, the same thing happened to Amalickiah, for the same reason, but only after years of war and death. Dumb Amalickiah. I think there are some lessons I can learn here if I ever choose to go into politics

Alma 47:8

Now it was not Amalickiah’s intention to give them battle according to the commandments of the king; but behold, it was his intention to gain favor with the armies of the Lamanites, that he might place himself at their head and dethrone the king and take possession of the kingdom.

 

 

If Amalickiah had seriously intended to engage the Lamanites in battle he probably would have chosen a better place to pitch their tents. In the valley, below the mountain occupied by the people you are supposed to attack doesn't sound like a good place.

Alma 47:9

 And behold, it came to pass that he caused his army to pitch their tents in the valley which was near the mount Antipas.

 

 

Amalickiah's persistence, the fact that these communications were happening in secrecy, at night, and the fact that Amalickiah was offering to give up his men should have been enough to signal to Lehonti that something suspicious was happening.

Alma 47:12

 and he sent again the fourth time his message unto Lehonti, desiring that he would come down, and that he would bring his guards with him.

 

 

Now if Lehonti thought in the same way as Amalickiah, this was the perfect time for Lehonti to kill Amalickiah. He lost his opportunity to do so and was himself killed.

Alma 47:16

16 And it came to pass that he delivered his men, contrary to the commands of the king. 

 

 

Lehonti failed to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Alma 47:18

And it came to pass that Amalickiah caused that one of his servants should administer poison by degrees to Lehonti, that he died.

 

 

 think a wise king would have retained his own secret intelligence sources within the army as a means of getting reliable information about the activities of his military leaders.

Alma 47:21

And the king came out to meet him with his guards, for he supposed that Amalickiah had fulfilled his commands, and that Amalickiah had gathered together so great an army to go against the Nephites to battle.

[zil2]

Alma 47

Obviously, we're not getting the subtle (v4) details of this story.  I don't know whether Mormon included this simply because it's significant to the overall coverage of this series of wars between the Lamanites and Nephites or if he wanted to demonstrate this sort of treachery, the dangers of treason (the modern word for Amalickiah's behavior), or ...?

Whatever else it may teach us, the last verse is clear - act in harmony with the knowledge of God that you have, and always remember our Savior.

[Carborendum]

19 hours ago, askandanswer said:

They kept their weapons in one particular place? This seems a bit inconvenient, particularly if they were ever needed in a hurry.

Alma 47:5

therefore they fled to Onidah, to the place of arms.

So they go to Onidah to get their weapons and then they go to another place for battle. If this is typical of their military practices it would help to explain why they so frequently lose to the Nephites.

Alma 47:7

And it came to pass that they had gathered themselves together upon the top of the mount which was called Antipas, in preparation to battle.

Not exactly.

Onidah was a fortress in which they gathered as a place of defense and refuge.  This would be the rally point and central command station of the Lamanite army near the boundaries between Lamanite and Nephite lands.  And, yes, such a place also had an armory with weapons (probably not armor).

Antipas was a place nearby which was a place for actual combat where armies would clash in open combat.  No tricks, no fortress.  Just skin against armor alone.  

Edited November 17, 2023 by Carborendum

[askandanswer]

It seems as if the difference between how Amalickiah and the previous king tried to do the same thing - raise up an army to attack the Nephites - is that the previous king sought to do it just by commanding the people whereas Amalickiah took the necessary preparatory step of appointing propagandists to influence the opinions of the people.

Alma 48:1

he began to inspire the hearts of the Lamanites against the people of Nephi; yea, he did appoint men to speak unto the Lamanites from their towers, against the Nephites.

 

 

No pretense of an idealogical, political or religious motivation, just a plain old grab for power.

Alma 48:2

2 he sought also to reign over all the land, yea, and all the people who were in the land

 

 

I guess this speaks to the importance of an independent media.

Alma 48:3

for he had hardened the hearts of the Lamanites and blinded their minds, and stirred them up to anger,

 

 

I think it was only a few chapters back where there was an indication that there were far more Nephites than Lamanites.

Alma 48:4

because of the greatness of the number of his people

 

 

So a former Nephite is appointing Zoramites to lead a Lamanite army. It seems as if the Lamanites were content to be used as cannon fodder.

Alma 48:5

5 And thus he did appoint chief captains of the Zoramites

 

The tactics are similar. Both Moroni and Amalickiah used deliberate and calculated approaches to prepare the minds of the people and both killed others to further their purposes (Alma 46:35). The ends are different with one seeking for power and the other trying to protect.

Alma 48:7

7 Now it came to pass that while Amalickiah had thus been obtaining power by fraud and deceit, Moroni, on the other hand, had been preparing the minds of the people to be faithful unto the Lord their God.

 

We need more Moronis.

Alma 48:12–13

Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.

 

 

This is why Mosiah 23 is so puzzling.

Alma 48:15

God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;

 

 

This is the perfect combination - a man of Moroni's patriotism, faithfulness and military skills, coupled with the righteousness and faithfulness of Helaman and his brethren. With this kind of leadership and preparation its kind of surprising that the coming war lasted as long as it did. As we shall see, the military and religious leadership were let down by the political/civil leadership.

Alma 48:19

19 Now behold, Helaman and his brethren were no less serviceable unto the people than was Moroni; for they did preach the word of God, and they did baptize unto repentance all men whosoever would hearken unto their words.

 

 

This reminds me of US foreign policy before 7 December 1941 - a reluctance to engage in warfare, and only choosing to do so when it became a necessity.

Alma 48:23–24

Now, they were sorry to take up arms against the Lamanites, because they did not delight in the shedding of blood; yea, and this was not all—they were sorry to be the means of sending so many of their brethren out of this world into an eternal world, unprepared to meet their God.

 

[zil2]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I think it was only a few chapters back where there was an indication that there were far more Nephites than Lamanites.

You're remembering wrong.  From the beginning of their story, the Lamanites have out-numbered the Nephites (at least, I can't remember any other instance).  I think you're recalling that the descendants of Amulon alone were almost as numerous as the Nephites (the way it's worded, it can easily be misread as saying that the combined Lamanites and Nephite dissenters are almost as numerous, but a careful reading suggests it's only referring to the descendates of Amulon).

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This is why Mosiah 23 is so puzzling.

IMO, not that puzzling.  The Lord is often "slow to hear" those who have only recently begun to repent after a period of prolonged wickedness.  Alma (the elder) and those converted by him had previously been engaged in significant sin.  And the Lord didn't leave them in bondage long.

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

As we shall see, the military and religious leadership were let down by the political/civil leadership.

I disagree.  The political leader (Pahoran) was overwhelmed by traitors seeking to overthrow the government and establish a kingdom - and what better time to try such a tactic than when the military are away fighting a war?  (Though I guess the leaders of those traitors were judges, so we could call them part of the political leadership.)

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This reminds me of US foreign policy before 7 December 1941 - a reluctance to engage in warfare, and only choosing to do so when it became a necessity.

You mean before Satan purchased our military?  Yeah.

[zil2]

I just made next week's thread:

 

[zil2]

Alma 48

v7+: President Nelson used Moroni's preparations as a template to encourage us to prepare spiritually. "Embrace the Future with Faith" from the October 2020 General Conference.  I won't bother to repeat the parallels - better to just go read the talk.    It is enough to say that one should constantly prepare to defend oneself and one's family (spiritually and temporally), from whatever variety of onslaughts might come, with redundancy, always strengthening and improving defenses and abilities.

v9: I don't remember P. Nelson referencing this idea specifically, so I'll comment - where one thing is weak, you place another strengthening thing - if your testimony of X is weak, you don't go seeking out threats to X, instead, you focus on Y, or you seek things that will strengthen X, not further weaken it.  If polygamy is a concern, put it on a shelf and work on strengthening your testimony of the Book of Mormon (for example).  If you're an addict, place barriers between you and all the things that trigger your addiction / tempt / allow you to indulge...

Preparation requires time just sitting and thinking, identifying threats, thinking of protections, planning implementation.  It's easy to let our busy day-to-day lives prevent this.

v10: Know what's important to you!

v11+: How to be like Captain Moroni: Seek understanding.  You don't have to delight in destroying your enemies in order to love those things you're willing to defend.  Give thanks to God always!  Work hard.  Have faith in Christ.  Be willing to sacrifice.  Never start the fight (give offense).  Trust the promises of God.  Keep the commandments.  Resist iniquity.  Don't let Satan have a place in your heart.

v19: (and lessons from others:)  Serve where you are called.  Be humble.  Don't have contentions among "yourselves" - within the Church, within a nation, within a family, we should not be fighting each other.

v24: Just because the Lord prospers you, it doesn't mean your enemy's agency is revoked.  So use your prosperity to prepare yourself and to be peacemakers, as much as possible.

I really think these are the reasons for President Nelson's talk about being peacemakers and not contending with each other - internal contention destroys quickly.  Failing to reach out in peace to our enemies only speeds their attacks.  Destruction will come soon enough, we shouldn't invite it.

Alma 49

Lessons in reverse...

v5: Expect the enemy to be brilliant.

v6: Don't assume that just because there are many of us we're safe and don't personally have to do much to prepare for attack.

v8: Expect your enemy to be prepared.

v13, 17: Don't make decisions in ignorance.

v18-19: Let gravity help you.

v27: Rage makes you do stupid things.  Don't become enraged.

Non-reverse lessons:

v27: Moroni was keeping the commandments of God in preparing for the safety of his people.  Keep the commandments of God, whatever they are.

v28: Be grateful to God.  (How easy it would have been for Moroni or others to brag about how smart or strong or wise they were.  Don't give in to temptation - give the glory to God.)

v30: Diligently heed the word of God.  Note the presence of Corianton - the Lord forgives, so should you; whatever sins you've committed, you can repent and the Lord can use you to do his work.

[askandanswer]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

IMO, not that puzzling.  The Lord is often "slow to hear" those who have only recently begun to repent after a period of prolonged wickedness.  Alma (the elder) and those converted by him had previously been engaged in significant sin.  And the Lord didn't leave them in bondage long.

It's a puzzling contrast between Alma and his people and King Lamoni and his people who were prospered very quickly even though they had been in a state of greater wickedness for a longer period than Alma's people. 

 

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

I disagree.  The political leader (Pahoran) was overwhelmed by traitors seeking to overthrow the government and establish a kingdom - and what better time to try such a tactic than when the military are away fighting a war?  (Though I guess the leaders of those traitors were judges, so we could call them part of the political leadership.)

I think that requiring the military to prop up or restore your government, not once, but twice, in five years, is indicative of a failure by the civil government