Book of Mormon Reading Group: 06 Nov - 12 Nov 2023 (Alma 26 - Alma 37)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

This week's schedule:

Nov 6	Alma 27	Monday
Nov 7	Alma 30	Tuesday
Nov 8	Alma 31	Wednesday
Nov 9	Alma 32	Thursday
Nov 10	Alma 34	Friday
Nov 11	Alma 36	Saturday
Nov 12	Alma 37	Sunday

 

Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 30 Oct - 05 Nov 2023 (Alma 13 - Alma 25)

Thread Index

[askandanswer]

Its a great blessing to be able to assist in someone else's conversion.

Alma 26:1

behold I say unto you, how great reason have we to rejoice; for could we have supposed when we started from the land of Zarahemla that God would have granted unto us such great blessings?

 

This reminds me of the hymn count your many blessings.

Alma 26:2

2 And now, I ask, what great blessings has he bestowed upon us? Can ye tell?

 

Some evidence seems to suggest that they were actually pretty close to the light if all it took for their conversion was the conversion of the king followed up by later preaching.

Alma 26:3

3 Behold, I answer for you; for our brethren, the Lamanites, were in darkness, yea, even in the darkest abyss,

 

Outside the salvation of one's self and own family, there really isn't much greater work than missionary work.

Alma 26:3

3 Behold, I answer for you; for our brethren, the Lamanites, were in darkness, yea, even in the darkest abyss, but behold, how many of them are brought to behold the marvelous light of God! And this is the blessing which hath been bestowed upon us, that we have been made instruments in the hands of God to bring about this great work.

 

The symbolism paints a picture of something that was standing, being cut down to the ground and separated from that which gave it nourishment and strength and enabled it to stand.

This idea that the field was ripe is not consistent with the idea that the Lamanites were in the darkest abyss.

Alma 26:5

5 Behold, the field was ripe, and blessed are ye, for ye did thrust in the sickle, and did reap with your might, yea, all the day long did ye labor

 

I'm not quite into the barn yet, or not as far in as I should be. I need to get a move on.

Alma 26:6

Yea, they shall not be beaten down by the storm at the last day; yea, neither shall they be harrowed up by the whirlwinds; but when the storm cometh they shall be gathered together in their place, that the storm cannot penetrate to them;

 

We need to place ourselves in His hands. It must be an informed and voluntary act of surrender and submission.

Alma 26:7

But behold, they are in the hands of the Lord of the harvest,

 

From what Ammon says here, giving thanks to God for the outcome, I don't see how it can be said that Ammon was taking glory unto himself.
Alma 26:8
Book of Mormon

8 Blessed be the name of our God; let us sing to his praise, yea, let us give thanks to his holy name, for he doth work righteousness forever.

 

God wrought the miracles.

Alma 26:12

behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, 

 

 

Is there a time when any of God's children are not encircled with His love?

Alma 26:15

15 Yea, they were encircled about with everlasting darkness and destruction; but behold, he has brought them into his everlasting light, yea, into everlasting salvation; and they are encircled about with the matchless bounty of his love;

 

This is not fully consistent with my note in verse 7. Perhaps on some occasions, God does snatch us into His hands rather than waiting for us to place ourselves there.

Alma 26:17

Who could have supposed that our God would have been so merciful as to have snatched us from our awful, sinful, and polluted state?

 

There is nothing that is more meaningful, more important, more satisfying and more necessary than being an instrument in the hands of God in bringing about His work.

Alma 26:15

15 Yea, they were encircled about with everlasting darkness and destruction; but behold, he has brought them into his everlasting light, yea, into everlasting salvation; and they are encircled about with the matchless bounty of his love; yea, and we have been instruments in his hands of doing this great and marvelous work.

 

This is exactly what Saul was trying to do and he went through a similar experience as Alma.

As I've noted many times before, this is behaviour that I just don't understand. Why not live and let live? If you disagree with someone's belief, so what? You should not seek to interfere with that belief except in the case where you can offer them a higher belief, ie, the gospel, in which case the higher belief should be extended as an invitation for the other person to accept.

Alma 26:18

18 Behold, we went forth even in wrath, with mighty threatenings to destroy his church.

 

Crossing over to and being on the right side of the gulf is only the beginning. Its not a one-way trip, its far easier to reverse direction and cross back to the other side of the gulf than it is to continue going forward. Much easier, and much less rewarding. 

Alma 26:20

20 but in his great mercy hath brought us over that everlasting gulf of death and misery, even to the salvation of our souls.

 

Here is the way whereby anybody can come to know everything. The pathway to revealed knowledge is open to all who will follow these steps. This is something that I truly believe, and why I reject the notion that our capacity to know and understand God and His actions is limited.

Alma 26:22

22 Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, 

 

Are they still calling it a strange land even after 500 years of occupation? Do they still feel that Israel is their home land despite not having lived their for a dozen or more generations?

Alma 26:36

36 blessed is the name of my God, who has been mindful of this people, who are a branch of the tree of Israel, and has been lost from its body in a strange land; yea, I say, blessed be the name of my God, who has been mindful of us, wanderers in a strange land.

[zil2]

Alma 26

Perhaps the greatest lesson from this chapter is simply the joy to be found in serving the Lord and in bringing people to a knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Whatever suffering may be required in the process, the joy is inestimable.

Also, how different the pure joy that God gives vs. what you think you're enjoying (I'm imagining that during their earlier rebellions, they thought they were having great fun going about to destroy the Church).

v2-3: "Can ye tell? ... Behold, I answer for you.."  I suspect Ammon was something of a character.

v4: That pure joy includes others with it - those you've served, or who have served you; v8 and always inspires praise and gratitude to God.

v10: Perhaps this is why they wanted Aaron to be king and not Ammon.   A more reserved personality probably seemed more appropriate for king...

v12: After ministering, serving God for many years, you should gain confidence and faith that you can do whatever God calls on you to do.

v13+: Each of us has the same reason to rejoice - It is because of Jesus Christ that we have light and hope of salvation and opportunities to do good.

v17-20: Truly, the Lord's love and mercy are boundless.

v21-22: Be humble, repent, obey God and you will learn amazing things.

v23-24: Do not mock righteous efforts, do not doubt the power of God, do not "write off" the children of God.

v25-26: Love your enemy...

v27: When discouraged, turn to God.

v30-31: God magnifies righteous effort.

v36-37: God remembers all his children, even you.

Alma 27

v11-12: Sometimes the Lord preserves you, sometimes he asks you to stay and suffer.  Trust that He knows what he's doing.

v22+: Love your enemies...

v27-30: True faith and hope.

[askandanswer]

If Korihor believed that what he was teaching was true, should he be punished for that, or should he just be re-taught? Perhaps there may be some similarities between Korihor and Paul - both were acting to the detriment of the church and in accordance with what they believed to be true, yet Paul saw an angel and was re-educated, while Korihor was struck dumb and killed by the crowd. Alma and the sons of Mosiah were behaving in a manner similar to Korihor but they had a very different experience. 

Alma 30

The devil had appeared to Korihor as an angel and taught him what to say—Korihor is trodden down and dies. 

 

 

So now they are the people of Ammon - not the people of Lamoni, or of Aaron, or the people of Lamoni's father, or the Anti-Nephi-Lehi's but the people of Ammon.

And its only now, after having read the Book of Mormon many times, that I've noticed that Lamoni's father is not named.

Alma 30:1

1 Behold, now it came to pass that after the people of Ammon were established in the land of Jershon, 

 

Is the prefix Anti here being used in the same way, or have the same meaning, as Anti-Nephi-Lehi?

Alma 30:6

 and he was Anti-Christ,

 

I wonder if there were any new prophecies in here or if they were just repeats of old, known prophecies.

Alma 30:6

he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

 

This seems to be very advanced and enlightened. I suspect that in England up until maybe even the 19th century, discrimination on the grounds of religious beliefs was still legal and widely practiced.

Alma 30:7

Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

 

On the other hand, to conclude that all men were on equal ground simply because there was no law against a man's belief suggests a very simplistic or narrow kind of thinking.

Alma 30:11

11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds.

 

What total nonsense! God can reveal anything to any person.

The Nephites knew that if you dropped a stone, the next thing which was to come was that the stone would fall. If you released an arrow from your bow, the next thing that would come was that the arrow would move forward. There were a great deal of things to come that the Nephites, and Korihor, knew of. Perhaps Koriohor's complaint had more to do with ways of knowing what would come to pass rather than the content of that knowledge.

Alma 30:13

13 O ye that are bound down under a foolish and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for a Christ? For no man can know of anything which is to come.

 

Did Korihor provide any evidence of this or is it just a claim he asserted, with no support?

Alma 30:14

behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers.

 

 

This claim that you cannot know what you cannot see leaves absolutely no room for things worked out solely on the basis of logical deduction. Most of what we know about the quantum world and sub-atomic things is about things we cannot see. This idea that you can only know what you can see advocates a very narrow, restricted way of knowing. There are more ways of knowing than just seeing, or what we can discover through our senses. And as Descarte pointed out, our senses are not completely accurate or reliable.

And no doubt many Nephites knew of Jerusalem, despite having never seen it.

Alma 30:15

 Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see;

 

In fact, I would go further and say that Christ, and the things of the spirit cannot be known through our senses, they can only be known through the workings of the spirit.

Alma 30:15

15 How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.

[Carborendum]

16 hours ago, askandanswer said:

If Korihor believed that what he was teaching was true, should he be punished for that, or should he just be re-taught? Perhaps there may be some similarities between Korihor and Paul - both were acting to the detriment of the church and in accordance with what they believed to be true, yet Paul saw an angel and was re-educated, while Korihor was struck dumb and killed by the crowd. Alma and the sons of Mosiah were behaving in a manner similar to Korihor but they had a very different experience. 

Korihor knew better.  He knew, but would not know.

He saw a freaking angel.  But the "angel" said there was no God?  Then what is an angel if it is not a ministering being from God? 

He was apparently educated enough to be able to think logically.  But he didn't take the time to consider, "Hey, a divine being just came and told me there are no divine beings."

Uh-huh.  He sure didn't know what he was doing.  No sir.  Yup, I'll buy that for a dollar.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Korihor knew better.  He knew, but would not know.

He saw a freaking angel.  But the "angel" said there was no God?  Then what is an angel if it is not a ministering being from God?

As Korihor himself admitted, he was seduced by the "angel"'s teachings:

And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.

When I was a young man, I thought this was exceptional, really almost unbelievable. I'm now 60, and I find it utterly convincing. This is exactly how people approach things.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Yup, I'll buy that for a dollar.

Robocop quotes win the day.

[Rhoades]

18 hours ago, askandanswer said:

If Korihor believed that what he was teaching was true, should he be punished for that, or should he just be re-taught?

In this case both.  Teaching is good.  But that doesn't preclude punishment.  It's interesting that Korihor brought on his own punishments (he asked for a sign and he acknowledged "I brought this great curse upon me").  Later he chose to go be with the wicked Zoramites where he was killed.

I think another question to ask is, "Did Korihor knowingly do anything wrong or was it innocent ignorance?"

Alma 30:53 says

Quote

53 ... And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.

At the beginning he knew it wasn't true, but he taught it anyway.  (The word "insomuch" can mean "to such an extent that".)  He was told to teach a lie, and he resisted the truth and taught it and continued until his success caused him to start to believe. 

What were his motivations?  Perhaps he enjoyed persuading people, or perhaps he enjoyed the notoriety he gained.  Or perhaps it was something even more sinister.  Korihor admitted in vs 52 "I always knew that there was a God". 

Even after being taught and acknowledging his wrongs Alma says to him

Quote

55 But Alma said unto him: If this curse should be taken from thee thou wouldst again lead away the hearts of this people; therefore, it shall be unto thee even as the Lord will.

So it wasn't a simple misunderstanding.  And, he wasn't changed.  If Korihor had the chance, he'd revert to teaching falsehoods again.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Rhoades

[zil2]

Alma 28

v12: I cannot imagine how painful the death of a love one would be for someone who had no hope of life after death.

v13: Ironic that Satan claimed he wanted to save everyone (equality) and yet his actions belie that claim, as he seeks to divide and make us unequal.

Alma 29

SPOILER ALERT:

v1: Perhaps Alma got his wish:

Quote

Alma 45:18 And when Alma had done this he departed out of the land of Zarahemla, as if to go into the land of Melek. And it came to pass that he was never heard of more; as to his death or burial we know not of.

v3: It's interesting to consider whether righteous aspirations (ambition?) can be a sin...  Certainly, we should be careful that such desires don't keep us from doing what the Lord calls us to do.

v4-5: Consider carefully what you wish for, what you pursue.

v6-8: Answer to #3 perhaps - recognize that the Lord knows what he's doing and trust that he's put you in the right place at the right time (assuming you're obedient and following the Spirit).

v9: Alma's thoughts are much like Ammon's were.  I imagine they were good friends.

v10+: Remember what the Lord has done for you and others and you will not easily be led away from him.

v17: This should be our hope for all people, that somehow we all might turn to God.  Even if it seems impossible, we should hope and woek for it.

Alma 30

v7 & 11: The way I read this, God's definition of "unequal" is to persecute based on a person's belief - to take away freedom of conscience.  This would be considered absurd and revolutionary today, when everyone is jumping on the "you must think what I think" bandwagon.

v13: One of the most baffling things to me about Korihor (and similar types) is that they aren't being harmed in any way by the believers.  He's free to believe and do what he wishes, yet he's got to preach against Christ and his Church.  This is all to common today.  The only explanation I can find is Satan, because there is no rational explanation.  "Religious types" aren't harming the atheists, for example.

v15: You can't know what you don't see. v16: But you have a frenzied mind (which I can't see, while you're alive).  And while I can't see the future, I know the things you believe aren't going to happen... (also v17)

v17: Ah, I suppose this is how the religious types are harming him - he's an anarchist and wants there to be no law and therefore no crime.  Thinks highly of his survival skills...

v20: Be like the people of Ammon - don't entertain nonsense.

v23-28: Satan's playbook: False accusations.  "You can't know that."  Twist the truth to speak a lie.  Pretend to be concerned about others.  Assert that material possessions and pleasure are paramount (without actually saying so).  Mock sacred things.  Lie about the existence of God (thereby violating your own logic about what can be known).

Above verses are a lesson in reverse: don't do those things!  Do them and you risk falling into your own trap.

v29: Sometimes, keeping silent and turning the matter over to someone else is wisdom.  Don't feel like you have to argue with every accuser or refute every persecutor.

v32-33: Don't seek to live off the work of others.  Provide for yourself.  Don't use the work of God to excuse yourself from such work.

v40: Folks hate this question.  "You can't prove a negative."  "It's on you to prove God does exist." etc.

v41: All things testify of Christ.  Pause now and then to see this.

v42: (an old doodle inspired by Korihor and his lying spirit):

v43+: Don't ask for signs.  Live so that you can recognize the signs that follow those who believe.

v48: Another sign of Satan's influence: cowardice and Satan abandoning you (or destroying you, however you want to see it). (see v60)

v51: Like everyone else, I wonder if Korihor was made deaf as well.  Otherwise, why would the chief judge need to write his message?

v53: This is the danger of believing happy lies - eventually, you convince yourself they're true, and then there's no saving you - not easily, anyway.

v54, 56, 58: If Korihor were truly sincere, why wouldn't he pray himself?  And he went begging rather than working, rather than trying to repair the damage he did (compare to Alma and the sons of Mosiah, who worked hard to undo the damage).

v59: SPOILER ALERT: The Zoramites are the sort of people who will run down and stomp on someone until he's dead!  (If Korihor were also deaf, that might help to explain this incident - he didn't hear them coming.)

[Vort]

58 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v1: Perhaps Alma got his wish:

How funny. I've been saying the same thing for a dozen years now.

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

How funny. I've been saying the same thing for a dozen years now.

Who knows, that may be the source of my thinking - I don't remember - I just have it highlighted and the two linked in my e-scriptures.

[Vort]

28 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Who knows, that may be the source of my thinking - I don't remember - I just have it highlighted and the two linked in my e-scriptures.

I doubt if I have ever had a truly original thought in my entire life. I have little doubt that most or all of my immense insight into the Book of Mormon was had by the early Saints before 1835.

[zil2]

33 minutes ago, Vort said:

I doubt if I have ever had a truly original thought in my entire life. I have little doubt that most or all of my immense insight into the Book of Mormon was had by the early Saints before 1835.

Probably so.  God has the mercy to reveal things over and over, and the wisdom to call us to gather and instruct one another that all can benefit.  I suspect half the "insights" I've had on scripture came from other people on this forum.

[askandanswer]

 

Alma must have had such a great love, for the gospel, for his God, and for the people.

Alma 31

Alma heads a mission to reclaim the apostate Zoramites

 

The Zoramites denied Christ, as Korihor also appeared to, and yet it was the Zoramites who killed Korihor. The Zoramites appear to be pretty strong in their religious beliefs, I wander if the cause of Korihor's death was due to religious differences?

Alma 31

The Zoramites deny Christ,

 

This is the first mention that I can recall of idol worship in the Book of Mormon. At this point, not even the Lamanites have been associated with idol worship. Alma gives us a detailed description of the religious practices of these people, which seems to consist of nothing more than attending a synagogue and reciting a set prayer, after which he says they didn't give any more thought or practice to their religion until the following week when they did the same thing. The prideful, empty reciting of false prayers does not constitute idol worship unless we use the very broad, modern definition of the term.  

Alma 31:1

1 Now it came to pass that after the end of Korihor, Alma having received tidings that the Zoramites were perverting the ways of the Lord, and that Zoram, who was their leader, was leading the hearts of the people to bow down to dumb idols,

 

So the "instinct" to gather together for religious purposes was not limited to the Church of God. There are several accounts of large scale groups of people in the Book of Mormon for religious purposes, and all of them, except for the Zoramites, were about the people of God moving from one place to another, typically under the direction of God's chosen leader.

Alma 31:3

3 Now the Zoramites had gathered themselves together in a land which they called Antionum,

 

The gospel here seems to be being used as a tool of diplomacy. This seems to have some similarity to the missionary practices of the Catholic church centuries ago, particularly on the American continent where the priests and preachers preceded the soldiers and bureaucrats and that particular version of the gospel was used to placate a people and reduce their hostility.

We see from Alma 35: 3 - 11 that carrying out their plan to preach the gospel caused exactly the outcomes they were trying to avoid.

Alma 31:5

5 And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.

 

This is a very powerful group of seasoned missionaries. It speaks to the hardness of the hearts of the Zormaites that such powerful missionaries had so little impact.

Alma 31:6 he took Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner; and Himni he did leave in the church in Zarahemla; but the former three he took with him, and also Amulek and Zeezrom, who were at Melek; and he also took two of his sons.

 

The Zoramites knew the word of God and had rejected it. They then accepted a set of false teachings. Then they had this group of powerful missionaries come and preach the word of God to them again and they still rejected it. It seems as if some of the possible explanations for this continued rejection of the Word are that a) there is something unappealing about the Word, or b) there is something more appealing about the word, or c) some deficiency in the hearer that makes the word seem more attractive than the Word. Perhaps if mortality and the plan of salvation were being played on a level playing field, both the Word and the word would hold the same level of appeal to all. Sometimes, when looking at how few accept the Word compared with how many reject it it seems as if we are playing with a dice loaded against us. It makes me ponder whether the overarching purpose of mortality and the plan of salvation is to sift rather than refine or perhaps to sift by refining. Whatever its purpose, I am confident that I am playing by rules that I agreed to. 

Alma 31:8

8 Now the Zoramites were dissenters from the Nephites; therefore they had had the word of God preached unto them.

 

So far, this matches the religious practices of the Latter-Day Saints.

Alma 31:12

12 Now, when they had come into the land, behold, to their astonishment they found that the Zoramites had built synagogues, and that they did gather themselves together on one day of the week, which day they did call the day of the Lord;

 

And this sounds like the pulpit that features in every chapel.

Alma 31:13

For they had a place built up in the center of their synagogue, a place for standing, which was high above the head; and the top thereof would only admit one person.

 

And this sounds like a testimony meeting.

Alma 31:14

whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:

 

Part of this still sounds like a testimony meeting, whereby people are free to approach the pulpit and state their beliefs, which are mostly the same. The difference here is that the Zoramites all held precisely the same belief as each other and that their belief, in essential aspects, are different from ours.

Alma 31:15

Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.

 

Just as we saw with other dissenters, one of the first truths to be lost is the nature of God.

Alma 31:15

we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, 

 

Both the Zoramites and the Latter-Day Saints under Brigham Young seperated themselves politically, geographically and religiously from the mainstream of their society, and neither group believed in the traditions of their brethren or their fathers.

Alma 31:16

Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren

 

Latter-Day Saints occasionally refer to themselves as a seperated, peculiar people, called out of the world and chosen by God.

Alma 31:16

Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children;

 

An interesting part truth. Some believe that Latter-Day Saints are God's elect people, on the path to being saved but we do not believe that the unelected are to be cast down to hell. There are other places that are quite nice where the unelected, and even some elected, could end up. This vaguely reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses belief that 144,000 are elected to be saved and no one else.

Alma 31:17

and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell

 

This aspect of their understanding of God is correct.

Alma 31:17

But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever;

 

So perhaps they were a thankful people, or at least they were thankful to God for this one thing. Interestingly, the thing that they were thanking God for did not come from God.

Alma 31:18

And again we thank thee, O God,

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by askandanswer

[zil2]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

At this point, not even the Lamanites have been associated with idol worship.

Actually, they have been, but using the word "idolatry", but note that it appears to be used more broadly than literal worship of idol-statues.  See the relevant entry in the Index to the Triple Combination.

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The prideful, empty reciting of false prayers does not constitute idol worship unless we use the very broad, modern definition of the term.  

See above.  All things which replace God are idols, regardless of whether they are statues / statuettes, activities, material goods, beliefs, other people, ideas, politics, false religions, or what have you.  I believe the prophets have always understood this.

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

There are several accounts of large scale groups of people in the Book of Mormon for religious purposes, and all of them, except for the Zoramites, were about the people of God moving from one place to another, typically under the direction of God's chosen leader.

I'm not so sure about that.  Look at Ammonihah - that appears to be a group of like-minded people who wanted to separate themselves from the Church.  And then there's Zeniff - while he appears to be a righteous person, it does not appear that he was inspired by God to go back to the land the Nephites had fled, but rather it was his own idea.

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

And this sounds like the pulpit that features in every chapel.

Alma 31:13

For they had a place built up in the center of their synagogue, a place for standing, which was high above the head; and the top thereof would only admit one person.

Apparently you've never seen, for example, a quartet stand behind the podium and sing.  I've seen even larger groups form an arc around the podium.  Further, "the stand" will admit a lot more than one person at a time.

[Jamie123]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:05 AM, askandanswer said:

Did Korihor provide any evidence of this or is it just a claim he asserted, with no support?

It's our old friend and enemy, the pooh-pooh.

On 11/7/2023 at 12:05 AM, askandanswer said:

And as Descarte(s) pointed out, our senses are not completely accurate or reliable.

"Your eyes can deceive you, Luke! Don't trust them."

22 hours ago, Vort said:

As Korihor himself admitted, he was seduced by the "angel"'s teachings:

And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.

When I was a young man, I thought this was exceptional, really almost unbelievable. I'm now 60, and I find it utterly convincing. This is exactly how people approach things.

As Henry IV Part II* once said, "Desire is the father of the thought". It's Elizabeth Holmes all over again!

21 hours ago, zil2 said:

Above verses are a lesson in reverse: don't do those things!  Do them and you risk falling into your own trap.

“Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed.” (C.S. Lewis The Magician's Nephew)

21 hours ago, zil2 said:

v51: Like everyone else, I wonder if Korihor was made deaf as well.  Otherwise, why would the chief judge need to write his message?

I was wondering exactly the same.

Verse 17 makes me think of Ragnor Redbeard:

Quote

Might was right when Caesar bled upon the stones of Rome,
Might was right when Genghis led his hordes over Danube's foam,
And might was right when German troops poured down through Paris way,
It's the gospel of the ancient world and the logic of today.

Might was right when Gideon led the "chosen" tribes of old,
And it was right when Titus burnt their temple roofed with gold:
And might was right from Bunker's hill to far Manilla bay,
By land and flood it's wrote in blood, the gospel of today.

*Old joke, but it still makes me laugh!

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jamie123
spelling

[Vort]

21 hours ago, zil2 said:

v51: Like everyone else, I wonder if Korihor was made deaf as well.  Otherwise, why would the chief judge need to write his message?

The medical term is "aphasia". I decided some time ago that Korihor was made aphasiac, probably from something as simple as a blood clot in the brain. By small and simple means God brings to pass great things (cf. Alma 37:6).

EDIT: By the way, aphasia would mean that Korihor was not made deaf, but simply could not understand any spoken language. Aphasiacs often retain the ability to read, since that's controlled by a different part of the brain. (Or so I've been told. It's been a while since I actually practiced medicine.)

Edited November 8, 2023 by Vort

[Jamie123]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

The medical term is "aphasia". I decided some time ago that Korihor was made aphasiac, probably from something as simple as a blood clot in the brain. By small and simple means God brings to pass great things (cf. Alma 37:6).

EDIT: By the way, aphasia would mean that Korihor was not made deaf, but simply could not understand any spoken language. Aphasiacs often retain the ability to read, since that's controlled by a different part of the brain. (Or so I've been told. It's been a while since I actually practiced medicine.)

Then again, the High Priest knew he would have to write messages (though maybe Alma - or Mormon - didn't think it worth recording the High Priest's attempts to speak to Korihhor before he realised that he couldn't understand).

I didn't realize that you used to be a medic Vort. I always imagined you were a physicist or an engineer. I guess you have many strings to your bow!

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

“Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed.” (C.S. Lewis The Magician's Nephew)

I don't mention this much in mixed company, but the ugly truth is that I don't really like Lewis's The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe series. I especially dislike how it ends. Nevertheless, there's a lot of very good writing and bon mots* in them.

* Linguistic note: I just asked my wife why it's bon mots and not bons mots. Don't French adjectives agree in number and gender with the nouns they modify? I wouldn't say les bon choses; I would say les bonnes choses. Her authoritative explanation: bon mot is A Thing, and as A Thing it's used as a unit. So the bon doesn't change**.

**Note to the note: A quick consultation of online dictionaries suggest that bons mots is indeed an acceptable plural for bon mot, but that bon mots is also correct. Don't know which is the more common one. Maybe Frenchies use the grammatically correct plural and English speakers just stick an S on the end. Sister Vort is effectively a Frenchie, though not having gone to the Sorbonne (she married some doofus instead), she may have just adopted the English-speaking way.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Vort

[Vort]

14 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I didn't realize that you used to be a medic Vort. I always imagined you were a physicist or an engineer. I guess you have many strings to your bow!

I didn't. That was my attempt at a joke. I did plan to go to med school, but after I got married I saw the high divorce rate for med school students and decided I wasn't a good enough student to breeze through medical school. So I decided to try a route more conducive to staying married.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Vort

[zil2]

Alma 31

v1: Some people dismiss the ancients as unsophisticated, in part due to the worship of physical statue-like idols.  However, it's my understanding that at least sometimes, the physical idol represented some god who was more like a concept or at least the one in charge of the concept (such as military might, fertility, or what have you).  This verse shows a clear understanding among the Nephite prophets at least that idol worship is the worship of anything other than the one true God.  In the Book of Mormon, idol worship is commonly associated with idleness, vanity, flattering words, and priestcraft (as well as any other form of living off other people's labors).  It's easy to read those things and think, "Oh, those wicked and foolish Zoramites.  We're not like that today."  But I think we're exactly like that, and Satan is the author of all of it (details to come).

v2: Do not just dismiss the wicked (this is another recurring theme in this part of the Book of Mormon).  In the first part, it was to be like Nephi - don't be satisfied with anything less than learning directly from God, learn to be guided by the Spirit in all that you do - President Nelson has been teaching us this extensively.  Now, with all these missionary efforts, the theme is to not assume anyone is beyond redemption and give it a try.  You'll find a few people, or sometimes many, but even rejection is worth the effort.  I wonder how long before the prophetic message in our day is to preach to everyone, even murderous idolaters...

v3-4, 8+: We could think of this philosophically rather than geographically in our day.  When members of the Church (those who have been taught the word of God) head into philosophies which neighbor those which are our worst enemies, recognize the threat and seek to redeem those members.

v5: We often want some program or new idea for how to improve matters or behaviors, but Alma has the simple answer - preach the word of God.

v9-11: How to avoid loss of testimony and falling prey to Satan: keep the commandments, participate in ordinances, attend Church meetings, pray every day, do not try to alter the "ways of the Lord" (ordinances and other things which have specific "performances" associated).

v12: Sunday-only worship is not sufficient.

v13-14: They gathered, but this spot would only hold one person, and that person was high above the heads of the others gathered.  The purpose of this is clear - their desire was to be seen of men.

 

Now we need a little background, which we find in the Book of Moses (this contains the most detailed information about the character and personality Satan that I'm aware of).  Chapter 1 summary of what we learn about Satan:

v12: He wants to be worshiped. (see also Moses 6:49)

v19: Easily upset, prone to ranting (like a 2 year old), demands to be worshiped, claims to be the Only Begotten (see also Abraham 3:28 - when he doesn't get his way, he gets angry and storms off in a huff, refusing to play well with others ever again for all eternity)

v21: Has considerable power

v22: Is not a graceful loser

In chapter 4, (verses 1-5) God tells us that Satan wanted God's power all to himself (to strip God of God's power as well as having it himself).  Satan wants to destroy the agency of man.  He is the father of lies, wants to capture men and force them to submit to his will. Uses subtlety when it suits him.

In chapter 5 we learn that Satan (v13) discourages belief in the word of God, (v18) will tell someone to do something that is otherwise right (implied in the overall story and explicit in the Book of Jasher is that Satan will tell them to do it in a way that isn't correct - aka altering ordinances, as mentioned by Isaiah), (v21) is pleased when his followers suffer (the overall story suggests Cain wasn't fully aware that his offering would be unacceptable, though that's debatable), (v29-33, 49-52) is the creator of secret combinations to gain from murder (see also Moses 6:15), (v38) uses desire for wealth / power / gain to tempt.

 

Now back to Alma 31:

v15: This verse describes Satan to a T: you were, are, and forever will be a spirit.

v16: You, Satan, have separated us from our brethren (Satan's first attack was designed to separate Adam from Eve and both of them from God).  Satan himself is childish (see above), but accuses others of being childish (note that God teaches us to be as little children).  Satan has "chosen" them (via deceit) to be his children.  Satan denies the Christ.

v17: Inverted truth - all lies from the father of lies.  Distortions of truth used to deceive.

It should be obvious that Satan is the author of this prayer and their mode of worship - to be seen of men.  Satan is their god.

v23: never speaking of their god, but certainly following him

v24: "their hearts were set upon gold, and upon silver" - Again, the influence of Satan.

v25: Pride is Satan's greatest sin and downfall.

v26: You can take all the above as a lesson in reverse - how not to be, Satan's tricks to watch out for.  No doubt there were many wicked things going on that we're not told about.

v27: "vain things of the world" - Satan would be perfectly happy if he could keep you playing video games for 12 hours per day, or even 8.  He'll settle for anything that keeps you from God. (Not saying video games are evil, am saying endless hours on your entertainment, whatever it may be, is a "vain" thing and that Satan will content himself with whatever keeps you from better and best.)

v28: Costly apparel and lots of jewelry are other things the Book of Mormon only mentions in association with wickedness.  Make sure your heart is set on something better.

v30-34: Pray for strength when trying to teach those who are given to wickedness.

v34-35: Pray for those to whom you are sent to teach.  All souls are precious.

v36: Do not forgo being set apart for you calling.  Until you are set apart, you do not have the calling or its authority or power, nor blessings you need.  ( @Jamie123, in our Church, when a person is asked (called) to serve in a formal way, as a teacher, in the leadership of a sub-organization (like Primary, Young Women's, Relief Society, etc.), or even on the "Activities Committee", their names are presented in Sacrament meeting for the congregation's sustaining vote (or opposing vote, should anyone wish to do so), and after they are sustained, they are set apart by a member of the bishopric, thus making the calling formal and receiving a personal blessing related to their calling.  I have noticed that it's not unusual for some people, particularly with "minor" callings - like working in the nursery - to "skip" going to the bishop's office after the Sunday meetings and wait to get set apart.  I have a testimony that this is a huge mistake.)

v37-38: Worry about the important things and trust that God will bless you with the necessities.  Go forward in faith.

Edited November 8, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't mention this much in mixed company, but the ugly truth is that I don't really like Lewis's The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe series. I especially dislike how it ends.

*SPOILER* I hope you're not going to do a Pullman* and tell me that Susan "went to hell".  When we left her, she was alive and well and enjoying her "lipstick, nylons and party invitations" (though she'll have a nasty shock when she finds out what's happened to her family!) However unfair Lewis' opinion on lipstick may have been, he didn't send any of his characters to hell for wearing it!

 *For the record I do quite like Philip Pullman. It's just a pity he's an atheist!

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jamie123

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I hope you're not going to do a Pullman* and tell me that Susan "went to hell". 

Not at all. I have no problem with Susan. I think Pullman's and Rowling's criticism of Lewis that Susan went to hell because she "discovered sex" is absurd and a reflection of those two authors' state of spiritual immaturity. Lewis portrays Susan as being gently seduced by the vain things of the world. I suppose promiscuous sex may have been one of those things, but I never took it that way, and I don't believe Lewis implied anything of the sort. In any case, he leaves Susan's story open, so you can write her ending as you see fit.

***SPOILER***

No, seriously, this next part is a ***SPOILER***, so if you plan to read Lewis' series, skip this.

...

...

...

...

My primary problem with Lewis' series is (by the way, ***SPOILER***)...

...

...

...that he killed all the children and presented their death as some sort of marvelous and happy plot twist. To me, that's just repulsive. Our mortal lives, though not all-important, are obviously very important and a gift from God. We should not value our lives above God, but we should feel and express deep gratitude for our mortal lives, and we should treasure them, not be eager to cast them off.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Vort

[Jamie123]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Not at all. I have no problem with Susan. (I think Pullman's and Rowling's criticism of Lewis that Susan went to hell because she "discovered sex" is absurd and a reflection of those two authors' state of spiritual maturity.) Lewis portrays Susan as being gently seduced by the vain things of the world. I suppose promiscuous sex may have been one of those things, but I never took it that way, and I don't believe Lewis implied anything of the sort.

I didn't honestly think you'd fallen into the trap of thinking that - hence the . (Maybe the  was bad taste, but I've never been world famous for my good taste.)

3 hours ago, Vort said:

...that he...etc.

*ALSO CONTAINS SPOILERS*

..

..

..

Interesting perspective. I never really saw it that way: I think because the characters do not realize they are dead until the very end - after they have already begun to experience Heaven. When Aslan appears, Lucy assumes that he has come to "send them back", and the happy twist is when they realize there will be no "going back" - Heaven is for real and they are there.

What's more, Heaven is more real than the "real" world, which is merely a shadow. It is Plato's cave. 

I have suicidal thoughts, but I would never act upon them. This is because: (1) I'm afraid of nonexistence. (Yes, I know Epicurus said that when death comes we won't be here to suffer anything from it. I don't know if that ever comforted Epicurus, but it's certainly never comforted me!) (2) I'm afraid of hell. "In the sleep of death what dreams may come?" However unhappy we may be, we can't know that whatever's on the other side of death won't be ten times worse. Better the devil you know! (3) As Richard Dawkins said, "We are all going to die, which makes us the lucky ones: most people don't even get to be born". He was talking about the "unborn ghosts" of the many DNA combinations that never get realized. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I do recognize the sentiment: life, however bad it may be, is a privilege.

But imagine you found yourself in paradise. You were young again. All your infirmities were gone. You are surrounded by all those you once loved and had lost. And suppose you thought it was a dream: that the cruel "light of common day" would soon come streaming in. And then you were to discover that this was reality. Your mortal life was over, and this was what your existence was now going to be. And not by any choice of yours. It had been chosen for you by God. Would you not rejoice and be thankful? Would you not accept with gratitude the gifts God had given?

In the words of Johnson:

Quote

Implore his Aid, in his Decisions rest,
Secure whate'er he gives, he gives the best.

I know everyone hates The Shack*. (I have a few problems with it myself, but not the same problems everyone else has.) But there's a chapter where Mac, the main character, gets to visit his murdered daughter Missy in Heaven. He is given a totally free choice to stay with her (in which case he would die) or to return to his mortal life. He chooses to return. Totally the right choice in my opinion - his family need him now, and knows he will see Missy again one day. But supposing the choice had been made for him, by God in his infinite wisdom? Could he possibly considered that a bad thing?

*I've mentioned before that there ought to be an opposite expression to "sacred cow". There are so many things that are anti-sacred cows. The Shack, ELO, Pot Noodle and GKR Karate to name but four. There needs to be a term for it. (Perhaps I shouldn't have put ELO on the list - I am thinking mostly of one loud-mouthed person who hated it, and sneered at me for being a fan. Others I have heard call it "bubblegum pop", which mostly tells me they are only familiar with very late ELO. Their earlier music was quite dark - a development from the later work of The Beatles (for whom Jeff Lynn of ELO was a producer.)

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jamie123

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

But imagine you found yourself in paradise. You were young again. All your infirmities were gone. You are surrounded by all those you once loved and had lost. And suppose you thought it was a dream: that the cruel "light of common day" would soon come streaming in. And then you were to discover that this was reality. Your mortal life was over, and this was what your existence was now going to be. And not by any choice of yours. It had been chosen for you by God. Would you not rejoice and be thankful? Would you not accept with gratitude the gifts God had given?

No, I agree with you. I just think we would be wise to view our mortal life as a privilege and a gift from God. Your post reminds me of this LDS-oriented NDE:

https://www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/2016/12/ella-jensen-raised-from-the-dead-by-lorenzo-snow/

[Jamie123]

Chapter 31 has a lot to do with the hyper-Calvinist "all house and no door" way of thinking. (Most Calvinists are not so bad, though the Zoramites could be viewed as a parody of them.)

Back in 1991 when I first had the missionary lessons, I refused to call myself a Christian because I couldn't get my head around election. My position was:

1. Predestination makes existence pointless.

2. The Bible makes it quite clear that predestination is true (I was mostly basing this on Romans 8 and 9).

3. Therefore I do not believe in the Bible and am not a Christian.

I was encouraged that the Mormons (as they were then called) did not believe in predestination. But after a while, each lesson I had was 50% "actual lesson", and 50% arguing about Romans 9. Those two girls had the absolute patience of saints!

One Sunday at the meeting house they introduced me to the Elders. One Elder (an American lad with a very big smile, about my age but a lot taller) clapped me on the back (maybe metaphorically, but perhaps literally) and said in an encouraging tone "You're elect, aren't you? You want to know the truth!" I somehow managed to keep my mouth shut, but I can just imagine the Sisters inwardly groaning, thinking "Why did you have to say that of all things?"

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jamie123