Book of Mormon Reading Group: 06 Nov - 12 Nov 2023 (Alma 26 - Alma 37)

[askandanswer]

t would be concerning if people thought that this is all there is to faith and if people accepted this explanation without thinking any further about its limitations. This definition reduces faith to being just a particular type of hope. Faith is much more than that. I think it was Joseph Smith who said that faith is a principle of power.

I think it is entirely possible to have faith in something which is not true. I think that hundreds of millions of Muslims have a very deep faith in their religion.

Alma 32

Faith is a hope in that which is not seen which is true—

 

This sounds like a very class divided society, with a lot of emphasis attached to material wealth. Normally it takes a bit of time for class divisions this deep to develop. How long had it been since this society separated itself from mainstream Nephite society? And what impelled the lower classes to remain as a part of a society where they were treated so poorly?

Alma 32:3

3 Therefore they were not permitted to enter into their synagogues to worship God, being esteemed as filthiness; therefore they were poor; yea, they were esteemed by their brethren as dross; therefore they were poor as to things of the world;

 

There is no particular reason why poverty should make you poor in heart, but I understand that there is generally a close relationship between the two. I think the relationship between poverty and being poor in heart is less likely to be close if you have the gospel in your life.

Alma 32:4

4 of whom were poor in heart, because of their poverty as to the things of the world

 

 

The idea that you can only worship God in a particular place is a bit silly. In general, no particular place is needed although particular types of worship do require a particular place, such as a temple.

Alma 32:5

5  and we have no place to worship our God;

 

 

t was certainly my experience, and probably the experience of many missionaries, that the poor were more receptive to the gospel than the rich. I think that is one of the reasons why missionary work is so hard in Australia - because many people are so comfortable that they don't feel the need for anything else.

I think that it is only in a society that places a high value on material wealth that people will be despised because of their poverty. In a society that highly values sporting achievements it will be the unsporting, uncoordinated people who are despised. In a society that values intellectual achievement, it will be the intellectual underachievers who are despised.

 

Alma 32:12

 it is well that ye are cast out of your synagogues, that ye may be humble, and that ye may learn wisdom; for it is necessary that ye should learn wisdom; for it is because that ye are cast out, that ye are despised of your brethren because of your exceeding poverty, that ye are brought to a lowliness of heart; for ye are necessarily brought to be humble.

 

The idea of goodness by compulsion is not entirely consistent with Moroni's teachings in Moroni 7:6 about the importance of real intent.

Alma 32:14

And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word?

 

 

[zil2]

57 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Predestination

Joseph Smith translated this as "fore ordination" - that many in the premortal existence were ordained to certain things, but just like a priest ordained here in mortality, it's up to them whether to live up to that ordination.

[Jamie123]

12 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Joseph Smith translated this as "fore ordination" - that many in the premortal existence were ordained to certain things, but just like a priest ordained here in mortality, it's up to them whether to live up to that ordination.

The Greek is "pro-horizo", "pro"="before" and "horizo" (according to Strong's concordance) ="to mark out by boundaries, to determine". I've read that many pre-King James translations also have "fore ordained" - though I suspect many of those came via the Latin Vulgate rather than directly from Greek.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

"You're elect, aren't you? You want to know the truth!"

As I'm sure you're aware, there is very much an LDS doctrine of election, though it does not involve predestination (in the sense of one's path through life being already written and determined beforehand). Only through election do we inherit all that God has and wishes to give us. This idea of election ties in very closely with another LDS doctrine you may have heard of, the doctrine of having one's calling and election "made sure".

[Jamie123]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

As I'm sure you're aware, there is very much an LDS doctrine of election, though it does not involve predestination (in the sense of one's path through life being already written and determined beforehand). Only through election do we inherit all that God has and wishes to give us. This idea of election ties in very closely with another LDS doctrine you may have heard of, the doctrine of having one's calling and election "made sure".

I have heard/ read that the LDS consider themselves an "elect church" but I was never very clear what that meant.

[JohnsonJones]

18 hours ago, Vort said:

...that he killed all the children and presented their death as some sort of marvelous and happy plot twist. To me, that's just repulsive. Our mortal lives, though not all-important, are obviously very important and a gift from God. We should not value our lives above God, but we should feel and express deep gratitude for our mortal lives, and we should treasure them, not be eager to cast them off.

I don't think it's a plot twist per se.

The entire book is apocalyptic.  It is talking about the end of the world.  The Children in this instance were already dead.  For them, it was fortunate that apparently it happened so quickly they did not even realize they were dead. 

Their lives were obviously important to them, and they were thinking they would go back to them.  However, when you realize the representation of who Aslan is, you probably can also understand their disappointment (as shown in other books as well) to be separated from him.

This, then is the representation of what will happen in the afterlife.  It is also a message to each of us that we may not be the ones to wait for the millennium or the second coming.  Our time for judgement may be much sooner.   When we die, that is the time we need to be prepared for.  At that time we can either be consigned to misery or happiness. 

In the purpose of the Children, it was happiness.

OF interest as well, at least some of them had already LIVED a lifetime in Narnia already, or at least a sizeable chunk and then gone back to be children once again afterwards (which is bound to have been somewhat awkward I imagine at times). 

[JohnsonJones]

This week I was reading in Hebrews.  In it for scripture study are chapters on Faith.  I always like to add to it that Faith is not just the hope of things, but the belief in things that are also true.

Verse 21 in Chapter 32 addresses this even better, and what I think is a prime example of Faith.

Quote

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

I can believe all I want that the moon is made of Swiss Cheese.  It doesn't matter how hard I believe that, it is still a false belief.  The important facet of Faith is that you have a hope or belief in something that is TRUE.

[Jamie123]

50 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

...gone back to be children once again afterwards (which is bound to have been somewhat awkward I imagine at times). 

Absolutely. I never really bought that either. If I had written it, I would have had them return to England as adults (perhaps taking on new identities) and introduced new children for the next book*.

Towards the end of his life, Lewis produced a chronology of Narnia, in a similar pattern to those in the appendices to The Lord of the Rings. However, Lewis was not Tolkien, and the "unified history" does not work. The books are too different from each other. They cannot be read as a single narrative. I hate the way books are now numbered chronologically. LWW needs to be read first, regardless of it being labelled "Book II".

* As soon as I wrote that, a whole host of problems sprang to mind. How would the disappearance of the children be explained? How would adults educated in Narnia cope in 1940s England? Maybe Lewis made the best of a bad job after all.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Jamie123

[Carborendum]

13 hours ago, zil2 said:

Joseph Smith translated this as "fore ordination" - that many in the premortal existence were ordained to certain things, but just like a priest ordained here in mortality, it's up to them whether to live up to that ordination.

13 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

The Greek is "pro-horizo", "pro"="before" and "horizo" (according to Strong's concordance) ="to mark out by boundaries, to determine". I've read that many pre-King James translations also have "fore ordained" - though I suspect many of those came via the Latin Vulgate rather than directly from Greek.

We can play with words and origins a lot.  I've studied these words (predestination, fore-ordination) many times and pondered them for many years.

Bottom line:

• Etymologically, they are identical.
• Usage and definition are whatever we want them to be within that overall concept.
• The idea of predestination (per many evangelicals I've had the pleasure to know) indicates that either
  • Choice does not exist.  We're just mindless automatons moving through a pre-determined set of thoughts and actions that God has set up.
  • Choice may exist, but God has already set things up that it is predetermined what choices we will make, so our choices are already made for us.

With many debates over the differences, I have found that we keep going in circles on the differences, or which is accurate.  At the end of the day, I have faith that I have a mind that God has given me to determine right from wrong.  And I have the freedom to choose good over evil.  And it is those choices that will determine my eternal destiny.

We are not railroaded into our decisions.  We all have plenty of time to consider our own wishes, what are the desires of our hearts.  And we will be judged on the exercise of our agency based on the light we've been given.

[Jamie123]

44 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

We are not railroaded into our decisions.  We all have plenty of time to consider our own wishes, what are the desires of our hearts.

One possible analogy is the ending of Superman II. *SPOILER ALERT* Superman has a machine that can turn super-people into ordinary people and vice versa. Pretending to trust Lex Luthor, he tells him about the machine, and how he needs to trick the three super-villains into going inside it. Luthor betrays him and tells the super-villains about the machine. They put Superman inside the machine and turn it on. But little do they know that Superman has reversed the programming so that super-people outside the machine will be de-supered, while he himself will remain super. And so Superman wins.

Superman knew that given the chance, Lex Luthor would act treacherously, and built his plan around that knowledge. Yet he didn't force Luthor to do anything he didn't want to do. (I don't altogether like that movie. I find it quite disturbing for a number of reasons. The first Superman movie was far better.)

[Carborendum]

8 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

The first Superman movie was far better.

Come on.  We all know what a big hit IV was.  You didn't like that?

[zil2]

Alma 32

v2: Do not reject people based on physical appearance or material possessions.

v3: The cause-effect relationships in this verse are presented in the opposite way we would expect.  I don't know if I'm just misreading, or if Mormon or Alma struggled to present the information or what, but this verse, taken as is says: "since they were esteemed as filthiness, they were poor" and "because they were esteemed by their brethren as dross, they were poor as to things of the world".  It does not say: "they were poor, therefore they were esteemed as filthiness" and "because they were poor as to things of the world, their brethren esteemed them as dross".

Personally, I think there's some worth in considering that the unexpected inversion is the correct sequence.  People fall into poverty for many reasons, but one of them is surely because people give up on them or reject them in some fashion, and being "cast out of society" they become or remain poor with little to no chance to change that condition.  Anywho, just some thoughts.  (v5 puts the sequence back in the expected order: "despised ...because of their poverty", also 12.)

v5: They were allowed to do manual labor on the synagogues, but not allowed to access them - this shows the character of the wealthier Zoramites.  I suspect there was some degree of casting them out because they showed the lie in the set prayer about how they're chosen - by casting them out, the others can say, "they're poor because they don't worship".

v6: Affliction doesn't always humble a person.  Some people choose even greater arrogance and resentment when afflicted.  Don't be them.  When you face affliction, remain humble, become humble, or increase in humility.

v6-7: Apparently, it's OK to ignore the folks who aren't listening and turn your attention fully to those who will.   (Seems like there's another even more blunt such occurrence in the Book of Mormon.  If so, we'll get to it.)

v10-11: Sunday-only worship isn't enough.  Make sure you are worshiping God in some form every day.

v12: Sometimes, what seems to be affliction is to our benefit.

v13: Repent and seek mercy.

v14-16: Choose to be humble.  Choose to repent.  Because if you don't choose it, there's a good chance the Lord will send you more suffering to encourage you to choose it.  (Heber C. Kimball wrote in his journal in 1856, apparently after crops in Utah were destroyed, "...if they cannot learn wisdom by precept, nor by example, they must learn it by what they suffer..."  Better not to suffer, IMO.)

v16-19: Choose to believe - to be the sort of person who believes.  Choose to act in faith.  Live in harmony with what you know.

v21: @askandanswer commented on this.  I think Alma is saying more than immediately appears, and faith even here, is a principle of power. Faith = hope for things which are not seen, which are true.  "Not seen" can be literal, or it can mean "hasn't happened yet" or "doesn't exist yet" or similar things.  Things "which are true" is required specifically because faith is a principle of action and power.  If you act based on faith in a lie, your actions will not yield the expected / promised result - your actions are without power.  Only when your faith is in something true can it have the power to bring about the expected / promised result.

I believe that Alma's definition fits perfectly with how God operates: For example, he "hopes" for something which does not yet exist (not seen), but which can exist (is true), and through faith causes it to come into existence.  I know that God knows everything, but I believe that this is how God creates - in his mind, he knows what is true (possible), envisions the thing he wants to create, and then acts as if he can create precisely what he envisions, as if it were already done - this is a form of hope, creating what is not yet seen, but which can be.  That sure seems like faith.  And it seems no different from how our faith should be.  We may not see Christ, but the Spirit tells us he is real (true) and we have hope then that because Christ lives, we can live.  If we act with hope in this truth, we will experience the promised result.

v22: Belief in the word of God is a prerequisite to mercy.

v23: Believe the prophet - you can receive the word of God, no matter who you are.

v26-27: See also, John 7:17:

Quote

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

It's important to note here the fact that you cannot know whether the word of God is true without acting on it.  So many people want to know before they act.  God doesn't work that way.  The acting is what gives you knowledge.  We mustn't forget this.  How often are we reluctant to accept a calling, "volunteer" or to do some work of service, or go and minister, or even go out of our way to be kind.  How often do we say to ourselves, well, I'm not ready.  Maybe when my faith is stronger...  We must remember than it's in the doing of it that we learn the principle (and receive witness and blessings).

v27: "Experiment" - Alma was a genius (or received revelation from a Genius ).  "...exercise a particle of faith"  "...no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you..."  We should encourage others in this same manner, as well as ourselves.  Sometimes, we want to be better in some way - let the desire work - what an interesting idea.  Don't fight it, work it, let it work in you, meaning, use the desire, act on it, think on it, allow it to change you, don't resist.

"...give place for a portion of my words..."  You don't have to do it all at once.  It's OK to work from desire to desire, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.

v28: Remember, the seed does not represent "faith" (a common mistake I've seen among members), it represents the word of God - which can mean two things: first, the Lord Jesus Christ, second, the teachings of God.

The Spirit plants and helps to nourish this word - make sure not to offend, reject, or drive out the Spirit!

"...enlarge my soul..."   I think I already quoted Nibley on this.  We cannot expand until we hit our limits, so put forth effort! (also v34: enlighten, expand)

"enlighten my understanding" = "delicious"

v32: How to know that your faith was in a lie - it doesn't grow, or doesn't bring forth the desired / promised result.

v35: We could probably have a day-long discussion about the goodness of light and "discernible".

v36: You cannot grow lax or stop your seed-nurturing efforts just because you've gotten a testimony of truth.

v37-43: How to feed a testimony - "with great care".  These verses are good counsel for everyone about the care we should take and the sorts of things we should do to ensure our testimonies don't stagnate.

v38: "heat of the sun" - expect trials.

v39: Sometimes, you need to nourish your "ground" even before the seed can be planted - a prior note from my e-scriptures: "Some of us have to dig up and replace the dirt, bring in irrigation, get fertilizer, fence out animals, figure out pesticides, etc., etc. - for the ground to plant in isn't good enough to sustain until it, too, is nourished."

v40: Always keep the end in mind.

v41: "patience" - don't expect to go from vile sinner to apostle over night.  v42: "patience with the word" - don't reject the word just because sometimes your "natural man" doesn't like it!

v42: "by and by" - good things take time and effort.  The fruit here reminds us of Lehi & Nephi's visions of the Tree of Life, and the wording at the end clearly points to our Savior.

v43: One seed planted, but a whole tree of fruit harvested.

[Jamie123]

32: This is the passage I was referring to a few weeks ago, when I wrongly connected it with Abinadi and King Noah. I do remember one of the missionaries reading it to me but I never had it in its proper context before today. (I somehow imagined the people being preached to had been cast out of the synagogues for their sins.) It is odd though that the poor people are truly humble and not angry and resentful towards the rich.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

26 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

It is odd though that the poor people are truly humble and not angry and resentful towards the rich.

There were probably some of those, but they didn't make it into the abridged version, and / or they weren't among those who went to  Alma to learn (the resentful ones were off in some tavern moaning about the unfairness of life).

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

32: This is the passage I was referring to a few weeks ago, when I wrongly connected it with Abinadi and King Noah. I do remember one of the missionaries reading it to me but I never had it in its proper context before today. (I somehow imagined the people being preached to had been cast out of the synagogues for their sins.) It is odd though that the poor people are truly humble and not angry and resentful towards the rich.

Well, at least one of them had stopped being able to talk and was run over and killed  (Alma 30:59).

Doesn't seem the best type of place to go around as a poor person.  If begging gets you run over I hate to think what trash talking would get you!

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

There were probably some of those, but they didn't make it into the abridged version, and / or they weren't among those who went to  Alma to learn (the resentful ones were off in some tavern moaning about the unfairness of life).

There once...  was a house... down in New Orleans...

[Jamie123]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There once...  was a house... down in New Orleans...

I've been to New Orleans. I kept my eyes open for it, but I never saw the House of the Rising Sun.

I did see Bourbon Street though.

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

32: This is the passage I was referring to a few weeks ago, when I wrongly connected it with Abinadi and King Noah. I do remember one of the missionaries reading it to me but I never had it in its proper context before today. (I somehow imagined the people being preached to had been cast out of the synagogues for their sins.) It is odd though that the poor people are truly humble and not angry and resentful towards the rich.

This is quite a famous, well-known and frequently used chapter among members and missionaries. Of all the chapters in all the scriptures, this is the one that is used the most to explain the nature and development of faith. Missionaries love to use this chapter when meeting with people seeking to learn more about the church. 

[askandanswer]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There once...  was a house... down in New Orleans...

Thanks Carb, this is the last clue that I needed to confirm my calculations about the location of the land of Antionum. 

[Carborendum]

15 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I've been to New Orleans. I kept my eyes open for it, but I never saw the House of the Rising Sun.

I did see Bourbon Street though.

Did you happen down Conti Street?

[Jamie123]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Did you happen down Conti Street?

Hmmm so there really is one!

I couldn't walk down Bourbon street without humming the song by Sting.

"The rim of my hat hides the eye of a beast, I've the face of a sinner but the hands of a priest."

[zil2]

Alma 33

v1: Tells you the questions the following chapter(s?) will answer.

v2: Have a spiritual question?  Search the scriptures!

v3: Alma expects that even the poor can read and have access to read the scriptures. Prayer is a form of worship.

v4-11: Pray everywhere, all the time, about everything. I find the Bible Dictionary entry on Prayer to be useful when pondering how to improve my prayers.  I think as long as one is seeking to understand God's will, and willing to act according to it, then praying over / about anything (e.g. to learn God's will regarding it) is good. (also Alma 34:19-28)

v13+: Believe in the Son of God. All things testify of Christ. (also v22 - look for it)

v21: In our day, we would scoff at the idea that looking at a serpent on a stick could heal.  Yet sometimes the Lord works in simple ways, ways that "logic" says are foolish.  Learn to believe.  Stay close to the Lord, be guided by the Spirit, so that you know the difference between nut-jobs and the simple ways of the Lord.

v22: All about Christ.  v23: "plant this word in your hearts" - the word to plant is Christ and his doctrine.  Faith nourishes it (faith is acting on belief).  Burdens become lighter because we understand and have joy in what Christ has done.  We have to choose to follow.

Alma 34

v6: "word is in Christ" - live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God (Matt 4:4)

v17: The first step in exercising faith is to repent.

v28: It's not enough to pray, you must do all you can to act in harmony with God's will.

v31-33+: Do not delay repentance.

v37: Salvation requires effort on our part (to obey God's commands, and repent when we fail).

v38-41: Good counsel for all who would follow Christ.

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Hmmm so there really is one!

Not really.

This is the "site" of an old building that was destroyed (I believe) in the 1800s.  That was "The Rising Sun Hotel".  There were some characteristics that leaned towards the interpretation that the song was about this hotel.  But most music enthusiasts believe that it was only a kernel.  The development of the "House of the Rising Sun" as a metaphor was much broader than any single historical building.  So, many sites in the US, UK, & France were thought to have provided inspiration for the lyircs.

The building that now stands is just a generic commercial building.  But many movies/shows that have been filmed on-location in NOLA were filmed on this specific street because of the mystique surrounding that song and site.  Some may recognize this street from the movie Undercover Blues and the reboot of Leverage (if anyone actually saw that show, I didn't really like it -- the original was much better).  However, I believe the Leverage scenes were on a sound stage that was mocked up to look like that street.  So, it may be that many scenes were not shot on location, but on the similar sound stage because of the historicity of the actual site.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

I have posted next week's thread here:

 

[zil2]

Alma 35

v3: Don't let anything stand between you and the word of God.

v8: As if we didn't already have enough reason to dislike the Zoramites.

v16: Counsel with your children, teach them the gospel.

Alma 36

Alma is consistent in his teachings.   God blesses those who keep the commandments.  Remember what God has done for you and your ancestors.  Trust God and turn to him for support.

v5+: Testify of your own conversion.

v17-20: One reason to always remember Christ is the immediacy of his relief and mercy.

v24: Forgiveness should inspire you to share the joy of repentance with others.

v25: Doing God's work should bring you joy.  If not, figure out why not.

v27+: Trust in God.  Have hope.