Book of Mormon Reading Group: 04 Dec - 10 Dec 2023 (Helaman 15 - 3 Nephi 13)

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Sorry Zil - I imagine this topic grosses you out (and I don't blame you)

Not really.  I like action movies and the war chapters.  Perhaps it's because I grew up watching Yosemite Sam get blown to bits by Bugs Bunny.  This sort of thing doesn't bother me.

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

but if use of blood as war paint being wrong, we ought at least to ask why.

OK.

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm not saying the Gadianton robbers were good guys - I just don't see that their going to war smeared with blood is necessarily a black mark against them. 

OK.  Remove the "smeared with blood" - their going to war to take what isn't and never was theirs is necessarily a black mark against them.

And the lies of chapter 3 conflict greatly with the imagery of chapter 4 (or would, had they not been lies from the start).  And the reason they smeared themselves with blood is equally wrong - to terrify those who were not guilty of any wrong and who wanted only to continue to live their lives in freedom and peace.  Can it be perfectly acceptable behavior if it was done for an evil reason?

Perhaps part of it is the cultural perception of those who are part of secret combinations - these are the wickedest of the wicked.  But likely only a member of the Church (oJCoLdS) would feel that instinctive rejection of everything they are.  Whether they believed in their own wickedness or not, they were evil.  In my mind, someone that far gone has a screw loose.

(But yeah, I was engaging in a little presentism there - I mean, smearing blood all over yourself requires a special degree of devolution - of barbarity - ceremonial sprinkling of blood all over the children of Israel aside.  You missed that reference, but Moses did that, too - Exodus 24:8.)

Finally, if it's worth anything, the Joseph Smith Translation of Genesis 9 (the Lord talking to Noah after the flood):

Quote

10 But, the blood of all flesh which I have given you for meat, shall be shed upon the ground, which taketh life thereof, and the blood ye shall not eat.

11 And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

Personally, I wouldn't want to answer for having smeared the blood of any creature all over myself to terrify my enemies in war.  Some may think that phrase no longer applies or has been preempted or something, but D&C 49:21 is close enough (this is not talking about murder, but about killing animals for food):

Quote

21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

Edited December 7, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

If I hadn't been so busy yesterday, I would have read 5 then because the dividing up of the chapters is once again bizarre...

3 Nephi 5

v4: This is the Lord's way - teach us the truth and forgive those who will repent.

v14: Live so that you can be the answer to other people's prayers.

v20: The blessings you enjoy didn't start when you were born.  Be grateful for all that God has done for you.

3 Nephi 6

v1-2: I suppose it's not surprising that it's after they separate that things go bad again.  While together, they are more than conscious of their mutual reliance on one another.  That immediate sense of helping and needing help against a common enemy kept them from internal contention.

The lesson then and now is to not let the physical separation cause you to forget that we still have a common enemy - Satan - and that we still need to help and be helped as we work our way through life.

v4+: Just because you don't need material help, that doesn't mean you don't need other kinds of help, and certainly doesn't mean no one anywhere needs your help.

What can I note that hasn't been noted before?  Pride in its various expressions once again divides the people against each other.  Beware of pride.  Crush it as soon as you recognize it in yourself.

v14: Be like "a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord."  How hard that would be if the Church were collapsing around you!

v17: Ignoring our own calendar and assuming as we should that the start of all this - the 30th year - is the start of Christ's ministry, we can assume that just as Christ "ramped up" his efforts, so Satan countered.  And I think we can assume this is an expected occurrence, that as we approach the Second Coming, Satan will increase his efforts.  Knowing this, be like those few Lamanites!  Refused to be moved.

v27-30: And the secret combination is back.

3 Nephi 7

v5: It's a sad summary when you have to say "there were no wars as yet among them".

v15: I don't think I ever noted the fact that the Lord's ministry in the old world was revealed to Nephi.  This lends even more weight to the following verses where Nephi does many of the same things that the Lord was doing.

[Jamie123]

19 minutes ago, zil2 said:

K.  Remove the "smeared with blood" - their going to war to take what isn't and never was theirs is necessarily a black mark against them.

Like I said, I'm not suggesting they were good guys.

20 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Personally, I wouldn't want to answer for having smeared the blood of any creature all over myself to terrify my enemies in war.

Do you think it would be OK to wear war paint made out of...ummm...whatever they made regular paint out of in those days to terrify your enemies in war? Or is it the very idea of terrifying your enemies in war that bothers you? Henry Vee would not agree...

Quote

...but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.

Quote

21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

Woe be unto me then... Many a time I've had a steak when I could have gone for the vegan option.

[zil2]

11 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Woe be unto me then... Many a time I've had a steak when I could have gone for the vegan option.

If you ate the steak (and were not being gluttonous), then I suspect you're fine.  It's the steak you bought at the store, then left in the fridge until it went bad because you were too lazy to bother cooking it that you should worry about.

[zil2]

26 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Do you think it would be OK to wear war paint made out of...ummm...whatever they made regular paint out of in those days to terrify your enemies in war?

I think mostly it's the starting of war that's the biggest problem.  The reasons for shedding blood, and I think the use of that blood, are also pretty significant to the One who notes every sparrow's fall.

Grease paint.  Meh, whatever.  Perhaps the problem is engaging in behavior that helps you to forget (or reject or whatever) the fact that you're a child of God and ought to behave like one.  Devolution should not be encouraged.  How much easier is it to behave like a rabid animal when covered in blood vs when simply armored.

26 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Henry Vee would not agree...

Whatever.  I'll take my cues from God, not man.

Edited December 7, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

11 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I'll take my cues from God, not man.

I think even God would agree that you cannot win a war without risking frightening the enemy.

[Jamie123]

22 minutes ago, zil2 said:

It's the steak you bought at the store, then left in the fridge until it went bad because you were too lazy to bother cooking it that you should worry about.

Woe be unto me for that too. ( In fact woe be unto me for a lot of things. My name is Legion.)

[zil2]

8 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Woe be unto me for that too. ( In fact woe be unto me for a lot of things. My name is Legion.)

Me and you, both.

[zil2]

11 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I think even God would agree that you cannot win a war without risking frightening the enemy.

D&C 45:66-71:

Quote

66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;

67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.

Let the enemy be frightened by righteousness and songs of everlasting joy and the terror of the Lord.

[Jamie123]

16 minutes ago, zil2 said:

D&C 45:66-71:

Let the enemy be frightened by righteousness and songs of everlasting joy and the terror of the Lord.

You've set me a bit of a challenge here - to find an example of where the unrighteous were "scared away" by the righteous for any other reason than their righteousness. I can't help thinking that two thousand sword-wielding, spear waving stripling warriors bearing down on you would have been a fearsome sight whether they were righteous or not... But you could be right.

[Carborendum]

7 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

You've set me a bit of a challenge here - to find an example of where the unrighteous were "scared away" by the righteous for any other reason than their righteousness. I can't help thinking that two thousand sword-wielding, spear waving stripling warriors bearing down on you would have been a fearsome sight whether they were righteous or not... But you could be right.

I just couldn't let this go without the actual footage from this fascinating documentary.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carborendum

[Jamie123]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I just couldn't let this go without...

("Earth! render back from out thy breast...")

Never seen that movie! It reminds me very much of Kenneth Branagh's Henry V:

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

17 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

You've set me a bit of a challenge here - to find an example of where the unrighteous were "scared away" by the righteous for any other reason than their righteousness. I can't help thinking that two thousand sword-wielding, spear waving stripling warriors bearing down on you would have been a fearsome sight whether they were righteous or not... But you could be right.

When the Lord comes again, the wicked will find his perfect righteousness so terrifying they'll wish the mountains would fall on them.  I'm not saying this has ever happened, except perhaps with the city of Enoch.  Those verses are about what will happen at or around the Second Coming.  And if we're going to theorize on the right way to do something, then our model should be perfection, even if we can't quite get there.

[Jamie123]

5 minutes ago, zil2 said:

When the Lord comes again, the wicked will find his perfect righteousness so terrifying they'll wish the mountains would fall on them.  I'm not saying this has ever happened, except perhaps with the city of Enoch.  Those verses are about what will happen at or around the Second Coming.  And if we're going to theorize on the right way to do something, then our model should be perfection, even if we can't quite get there.

Maybe you're right in theory. But if a robber were to break into my house in the middle of the night, I wonder what the best method of repelling him would be?

a. Singing songs of praises, to fill him with the terror of the Lord.

b. Fooling him into thinking I was a 6ft tall body builder and had an 18 inch machete in my hand. (Assuming, of course, I had a means to pull this off.)

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Maybe you're right in theory. But if a robber were to break into my house in the middle of the night, I wonder what the best method of repelling him would be?

a. Singing songs of praises, to fill him with the terror of the Lord.

b. Fooling him into thinking I was a 6ft tall body builder and had an 18 inch machete in my hand. (Assuming, of course, I had a means to pull this off.)

 

OR

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carborendum

[Jamie123]

34 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This is more like me at the moment:

Long dreary text-debate with my wife this afternoon left me with little enthusiasm for life. Then thinking about the Gadianton robbers got me thinking about Adolf Hitler. Thinking about Adolf Hitler got me thinking about chocolate cake. Bought and ate an entire chocolate cake. Now feel very like the man in the picture (without the actual vomiting).

The best I can say in my defence is I haven't actually turned to drink. That's even worse than chocolate cake. You wake up next morning with all your troubles still there, plus a splitting headache. You Latter-day types have the right idea about drink.

P.S. Feeling a bit better now...

Edited December 7, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Maybe you're right in theory. But if a robber were to break into my house in the middle of the night, I wonder what the best method of repelling him would be?

a. Singing songs of praises, to fill him with the terror of the Lord.

b. Fooling him into thinking I was a 6ft tall body builder and had an 18 inch machete in my hand. (Assuming, of course, I had a means to pull this off.)

Well, we were talking about war, not home invasion.  I reckon the best option for home invasion is lead.  About 147grains of it.  Rapidly accelerating toward invasion dude.  (Yeah, I know, not an option for you guys.  Seems like the best option for you guys is to have your bathroom converted into a safe-room and wait until dude has had his way with your belongings. )

But all that is irrelevant.  I'm praying for you, Jamie, and hope God will bless you with what you need to lift your spirits and give you strength!  (And don't beat yourself up over the chocolate cake binge.  It's done.  So what?  Your body will recover.  Try not to do that to it too often. )

[askandanswer]

On 12/6/2023 at 11:55 PM, Jamie123 said:

It's a never ending cycle isn't it? Things go bad, people repent, things turn good, people stop repenting, things go bad again until people start repenting again...etc.

Given the frequency and speed of the pride cycle at this point in Nephite society I can't help wondering about the wisdom of repeatedly blessing people with something - in this case prosperity - that almost invariably set off that cycle of pride. Surely there was something else that God could have blessed them with that did not lead to pride. 

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

This is more like me at the moment:

Long dreary text-debate with my wife this afternoon left me with little enthusiasm for life. Then thinking about the Gadianton robbers got me thinking about Adolf Hitler. Thinking about Adolf Hitler got me thinking about chocolate cake. Bought and ate an entire chocolate cake. Now feel very like the man in the picture (without the actual vomiting).The best I can say in my defence is I haven't actually turned to drink. That's even worse than chocolate cake. You wake up next morning with all your troubles still there, plus a splitting headache. You Latter-day types have the right idea about drink.

P.S. Feeling a bit better now...

Next time you're feeling like this, I recommend a dose of the Book of Mormon. Perhaps anywhere in 3rd Nephi after chapter 9. Or Alma 17 - 26. Or 2nd Nephi 4. Or Mosiah 2- 5. or Moroni 10.

[zil2]

3 Nephi 8

v8+: Don't stay in those places where wickedness is all that's left.  (If a "place" is causing / encouraging you to choose wickedness, leave it and go where folks will help you choose repentance and righteousness.)

v21: When you cast the Lord out of your life, there can be no light.  Do whatever is necessary to have him in your life instead.

v24-25: Repentance is less painful than regret.

3 Nephi 9

v2: I don't know about now, but back in the 1980s, this portion of the Hill Cumorah Pageant (and Wikipedia) was pretty impressive.  They had man-tall speakers booming out this "wo, wo, wo" and you could feel it vibrating right through you.

v13-14: Turn to Christ - everything he offers is good.

v17: Though we are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father, this "And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God" (italics mine) is something more - a covenant and future relationship with God the Father and Christ.  This phrasing, "become the sons of God" appears in the New Testament (John 1:12), Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants (11:30, 39:4, 42:52, 48:8).  The idea is expressed in other phrases in additional locations (New Testament, Pearl of Great Price, probably the Book of Mormon and D&C).  Anywho, I find this phrasing interesting - "given to become", "power to become".  To a member of the Church, this can only be a reference to our covenants and the promise that we may inherit all that God has.  But I also think it refers to becoming adopted children of Christ, through those covenants.

v20: A broken heart and a contrite spirit.  Remember to work on these, humility being the common element.

v21: Christ came to save.  Choose to be saved.

v22: ...by repenting.

Edited December 8, 2023 by zil2

[Vort]

23 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Thinking about Adolf Hitler got me thinking about chocolate cake.

[Vort]

22 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Given the frequency and speed of the pride cycle at this point in Nephite society I can't help wondering about the wisdom of repeatedly blessing people with something - in this case prosperity - that almost invariably set off that cycle of pride. Surely there was something else that God could have blessed them with that did not lead to pride. 

The non-intuitive truth is that righteous living in a righteous society inevitably brings prosperity and wealth. It might take a generation or even two, but it's a sure as day following night. Success becomes its own trap for the spiritually immature, even for righteous folks.

[Vort]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:14 PM, Carborendum said:

 

OR

 

OR

[Vort]

On 12/7/2023 at 10:20 AM, Jamie123 said:

hard-favor'd rage

Whaut hauppenued tou theu euxtraneous "u"?

[Vort]

On 12/6/2023 at 3:17 PM, Jamie123 said:

What is considered "decent" changes from age to age. It wasn't all that long ago that ammonia extracted from human wee was used to bleach linen - disgusting though that sounds today.

What with venturing into space and the likelihood of off-world colonies, we're headed back to the future.

Btw, urine from a healthy person is almost perfectly sterile. Some people drink their own urine for supposed health benefits. Disgusting? Yes, at least to me. Unhealthful? Probably not. While I doubt there's any benefit to it, there is very little risk to drinking your own (fresh) urine. Repurposing such bodily fluids to harvest useful chemicals seems eminently reasonable to me.