Book of Mormon Reading Group: 04 Dec - 10 Dec 2023 (Helaman 15 - 3 Nephi 13)

[Vort]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:59 AM, Jamie123 said:

It probably won't be the last time. "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"

Ozymandias, or maybe Galadriel.

[Vort]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:00 AM, Jamie123 said:

Only over "this wicked band". It sounds like the "king" was an irrelevance except to a very few people.

It was a group that, within a decade, posed a credible existential threat to the combined Nephites and Lamanites under Lachoneus, so it wasn't all that small.

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

Btw, urine from a healthy person is almost perfectly sterile. Some people drink their own urine for supposed health benefits. Disgusting? Yes, at least to me. Unhealthful? Probably not. While I doubt there's any benefit to it, there is very little risk to drinking your own (fresh) urine. Repurposing such bodily fluids to harvest useful chemicals seems eminently reasonable to me.

Wasn't someone saying we need a "barf" reaction icon?

[Vort]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

Wasn't someone saying we need a "barf" reaction icon?

Someone's curious...

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Someone's curious...

OK, it was an "Ewwwww" icon:

 

[Jamie123]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Ozymandias, or maybe Galadriel.

Ozymandias "king of kings". I think Galadrial said "all shall love me and despair".

[askandanswer]

Why was this necessary? Had this knowledge been lost?

3 Nephi 11

—He sets forth the mode and manner of baptism

 

it may be possible that this chapter reveals something about the character of God. He is very clear and specific here in laying out exactly what He wants His children to do. He wants this, and not that. When we make these kind of pronouncements we are making choices, and choices reveal character. God is saying very clearly here that He wants His children to repent, believe in Christ, and be baptised by one having His authority. A general, casual acceptance of Christ and His teachings is not what God wants, that is not enough to please Him, repentance, belief and baptism by one not having the authority is not enough to please Him, keeping the commandments and living a moral life, without believing in Christ is not enough to please Him. This could suggest that God attaches some value to formal acts that indicate belief and acceptance and some value to doing things in a very specific, ordered manner. There are probably many more hints as to God's character that could emerge from a dedicated study of this chapter, I have just hinted here at the possibility.

3 Nephi 11

—Christ’s doctrine is that men should believe and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. 

 

 

Perhaps the distinguishing feature of contention is not the content of a discussion but the nature, purpose and intent of a discussion. Two pairs of people could be saying exactly the same words to each other, but depending on how and why those words are being said, one more might be contending and the other pair might be having a discussion.  

3 Nephi 11

—The spirit of contention is of the devil

 

Bountiful is not listed in chapter 9 as one of the places that was destroyed, but the fact that while they were in Bountiful they were showing each other the great and marvelous changes which had taken place suggests that Bountiful was not unafffected by what had happened.

3 Nephi 11:1

1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful;

 

This is so similar to Helaman 5:30

And it came to pass when they heard this avoice, and beheld that it was not a voice of thunder, neither was it a voice of a great tumultuous noise, but behold, it was a bstill voice of perfect mildness, as if it had been a whisper, and it did pierce even to the very soul

3 Nephi 11:3

they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul

 

, This seems a bit odd that they heard this soft piercing voice but did not understand what it was saying. The value of speaking is greatly reduced if what you are saying is not understood. When Joseph Smith had a similar experience there is no indication that he misunderstood anything he heard.

3 Nephi 11:4

And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.

 

They had finally understood what the voice was saying, and it was God introducing His Beloved Son, but still they mistake him for an angel. Perhaps the intent of the law of Moses also failed with this group as well as with the Jews. The intent of that law was to prepare people for, and point them to CHrist, but when He appears, despite having been introduced by His Father, they still don't recognise Him.

3 Nephi 11:8

and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

Having God introduce His Son was not enough for them? They still needed more proof?

3 Nephi 11:14

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

 

I still haven't worked out how the continuing scars of the crucifixion align with the idea that we receive a perfect body when we are resurrected. Was their something incomplete in the resurrection of the first person to be resurrected? Perhaps Christ wants to perpetually carry these scars as a reminder to all who see them about what He did for us. If that is the case it introduces the possibility that we may have some choice about how we will appear in the resurrection.

3 Nephi 11:15

And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet;

 

So its only after they have each personally evaluated the physical proof that they come to the conclusion about who has appeared to them,.

3 Nephi 11:17

Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

 

This is puzzling. Nephi had been such a powerful prophet and surely during his successful missions he had already baptised many people.

3 Nephi 11:21

 I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.

 

It seems as though for the Nephites, it was very hard for them not to dispute.

3 Nephi 11:22

; and there shall be no disputations among you.

 

This teaching has some similarities with, and differences from, teachings on the same topic in Doctrine and Covenants 20:37, Mosiah 18: 8-9 and Moroni 6: 1-3.

3 Nephi 11:23

23 Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words, and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them—Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them.

[zil2]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This seems a bit odd that they heard this soft piercing voice but did not understand what it was saying. The value of speaking is greatly reduced if what you are saying is not understood. When Joseph Smith had a similar experience there is no indication that he misunderstood anything he heard.

Joseph Smith was seeking and expecting an answer from God - he was already listening.  These people were just going about their lives, surprised by a voice suddenly coming from who-knows-where.  It took them time to figure out what was going on and listen.  I find it more interesting that to understand the voice of God requires active effort on the part of the person God is addressing - that's not something we really think of in regards to listening to someone speaking in our language.  I think their reactions in v3 (in other words, the effect of the voice on the hearers) are equally interesting and revealing.

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This is puzzling. Nephi had been such a powerful prophet and surely during his successful missions he had already baptised many people.

It would seem that baptism under the old covenant (law of Moses) was not sufficient, and the people now needed to be baptized into the new covenant.

Edited December 9, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

16 hours ago, Vort said:

What with venturing into space and the likelihood of off-world colonies, we're headed back to the future.

Btw, urine from a healthy person is almost perfectly sterile. Some people drink their own urine for supposed health benefits. Disgusting? Yes, at least to me. Unhealthful? Probably not. While I doubt there's any benefit to it, there is very little risk to drinking your own (fresh) urine. Repurposing such bodily fluids to harvest useful chemicals seems eminently reasonable to me.

In Dune, the still-suit reclaimed all bodily excretions and recovered the water in drinkable form (which the wearer could sip from a tube around the neck). I've often wondered how that would work, and if anyone will ever invent such a thing.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

In Dune, the still-suit reclaimed all bodily excretions and recovered the water in drinkable form (which the wearer could sip from a tube around the neck). I've often wondered how that would work, and if anyone will ever invent such a thing.

And in Waterworld the main character pumped his urine through a filter and drank the "clean" water afterward.  What made this scene completely gratuitous is that he was able to drink sea water.  He was a mutant.

Regardless, I'd like to have that filter/pump.  And a Life Straw just doesn't work.

[zil2]

3 Nephi 8 & 9

It's easy to miss that this voice was speaking while they were still in darkness.  Chapter 8 ends noting that the darkness lasted 3 days, so it's easy to think that the darkness ends with chapter 8...  I cannot find anything explicit in 8 or 9 to say it was light or dark, but...

• The heading of 9 says "In the darkness..." (and I'm not about to second guess Elder McConkie, even if he himself said these were neither scripture nor without error)
• 8:23 says that for three days "there was no light seen" and the people were "mourning and howling and weeping" continually.  (But presumably they stopped with the voice started.)

All of this is to point out that the voice of Christ was heard immediately after all the destruction, at some point during the three days of darkness. (And to set the scene for comments on chapter 10.)

3 Nephi 10

v2: They ceased lamenting and howling for the loss of their kindred - suggests that this is still during or immediately after the three days of darkness.

v1-2: Other than Christ taking credit for all the destruction, the things he said in chapter 9, should not have been a surprise.  They had been taught that Christ would redeem them from their sins, that they must repent, and that after Christ came, the law of Moses would be done away.  It's likely the survivors (the more righteous, even if not that righteous) would remember at these the basics of that.  Perhaps it was a little surprising that the new sacrifice was as "simple" as a broken heart and contrite spirit, but I don't think any of that is enough to account for many hours of silence.  I suspect that it was both the voice out of nowhere (so to speak) and the power of Christ that caused this stunned silence.

I have no idea what it's like to hear the voice of Christ speaking seemingly from nowhere, but I think there's a lesson here.  Christ gave these people time to "process" what they had heard and felt.  Whether they did that was up to them.  Therefore, we should choose to take time to "process" (aka document, ponder, study, and pray) when we have spiritual experiences - great or small.  We should make silent time and space wherein to receive what God has sent to us.  I believe that the better we get at that, the more we will receive (and the faster we'll be able to process it).

v5: "ye that dwell at Jerusalem". In 9:6-7, the Lord says the Nephite / Lamanite city of Jerusalem was sunk into the earth and waters were caused to come up in their place.  Therefore, it seems more likely that the Lord is addressing the Jerusalem where he had ministered.  And this makes me wonder: Is this one of those cases where the Lord addresses a people without them hearing it (similar to Luke 13:34 - few would have heard him speaking these words), or was his voice heard in the old world and we just have no record of it?  The first half of his words (chapter 9) was very specific to the Nephites and Lamanites, but this part appears to be common to the entire house of Israel...  Anywho, just a curiosity. (But before you go wondering how such a thing could be lost, see v16-17 about things that were on the plates of brass that are not in the Old Testament.)

v5-6: Be like a cute baby chicken, and go huddle under Christ's wings where it's safe and warm.

v9: Aha!  So this was during darkness.

v10: When the trial is over, praise and thank the Lord (but turn to him during it, too).

v12: Receive prophets, don't murder saints.  Seems like a pretty low bar for survival.  Choose to survive.  Better, choose to be a saint.

v13: Fates to avoid.

v18: Mormon at least knows that Christ returned to minister among his apostles before ascending into heaven, and that he came to the Nephites after that.  Note that those who survived received great blessings.  Be a survivor.

3 Nephi 11

Per the end of chapter 10, this is a considerable time after all the destruction, darkness, and hearing the voice of Christ.

v1: When you feel prompted to go to the temple (and perhaps even if you don't), go to the temple!  (Just in case you might otherwise miss out on something spectacular...)

v3-6: There's no indication in chapters 9 and 10 that the people had any trouble hearing and understanding the voice of Jesus Christ also, no point of origin is specified for Christ's voice.  But here we have a voice coming from heaven.  And unlike Christ's voice, they cannot immediately understand it, not even the second time (v4) when it's no longer a surprise.  It takes three times (a symbolic number, whether there's meaning here or not - though there's certainly meaning in God being willing to (I assume) repeat himself).

v3: Important points: not harsh, not loud, "small" (probably like a whisper).  And yet: it pierced them to the center, causing "their frame" to quake. It pierced them to the very soul and caused their "hearts to burn".  If just God's voice does this (without even understanding the words), just imagine what his presence would do to you!  Some connections my brain made: 1 Nephi 16:2 states that the truth cuts the guilty "to the very center" (God is, of course, a God of truth).  It is perhaps slightly easier to understand why the Israelites in the wilderness told Moses, in essence, "You go talk to God, we'll stay here."  Joseph Smith taught that "God dwells in everlasting burnings" (ToPJS, section six, p361).  And of course, there's the obvious "burning in the bosom" that signified a confirmation from the Spirit for Oliver Cowdery.

(Klaw says, "Too much scripture study!  Not enough play!")

v5: They "opened their ears", they looked toward the sound, looked steadfastly toward heaven - we should do the same!

v8: I'm not so hard on the Nephites as @askandanswer - it's not like they had a photograph of Christ, or experiences similar to this to compare...  I have to believe Christ was suppressing a significant percentage of his glory (which would be the same as the Father's glory at this point) in order for the people to endure his presence (and not immediately collapse under its "pressure" - for lack of a better way to phrase it).

v14: I have always assumed that Christ had the power to keep or lose these marks of the crucifixion at his will, and that he will keep them for as long as he deems them necessary.  As to the multitude feeling them one by one - clearly, the Lord wanted a people with zero room for any doubt, a people with absolute knowledge of this at least.  And I have to believe that a massive spiritual healing and witness was happening for each of those individuals, at the same time - more than just what they saw and felt with their hands.

v15-17: I don't think they needed all this before they could worship, I just think that's the sequence of events, as directed by the Lord.

v28-30: We should not contend with anger about doctrine (or anything, but particularly about doctrine).  We have a prophet, and we have various key-holders under him, we should yield to them and to scripture to teach us, and not argue it out in Sunday School.

v31+: Christ's doctrine: repent, believe in Christ, be baptized.

v35: Fire again.  Seek witness from the Holy Ghost - that witness is more sure than whatever your eyes see and your hands feel.

v37-38: When the Lord repeats himself, pay attention!

v39-40: Oh, hey, building.  Gonna have to go note this in my other thread! Only when you base your behavior on Christ's doctrine are you safe and stable - base it on anything else and you're doomed to fall eventually.

v41: Share the gospel of Jesus Christ with everyone.

[zil2]

Just posted next week's thread:

 

Sorry, @askandanswer, I keep forgetting to do this on my Saturday!

[askandanswer]

23 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Just posted next week's thread:

 

Sorry, @askandanswer, I keep forgetting to do this on my Saturday!

THanks @zil2 I'm just about to start my scripture reading now and now I know where to read. 

[zil2]

3 Nephi 12

(It's worth noting that 11:18-41 was addressed to Nephi and the other disciples Christ had called, not to the multitude.)

v1: The end of this is interesting.  They have seen Christ, but really, at the end of the day, this doesn't prove that he's the Son of God, nor that he can save us from sin.  Even these folks had to have faith that Christ would bring about their salvation, just as we do.

v3+: I'm not going to comment on the entire sermon on the mount.   Be these things and you will receive the gift of eternal life.

v13-16: The few bring flavor and light to the many.  Be one of the few, the humble, the disciples of Christ.

v19+: The beginning of a higher law, one of thought, feeling, and intent, as well as action.

v30: "take up your cross" - of all people, Christ would not use this phrase lightly.  It's worth treating as a sacred command.

v45: Really, this is the reason to do all these things - so that we may rightly be the children of our Heavenly Father.

3 Nephi 13

In some ways, these verses (and many of the last chapter) are exemplifying virtues or attributes we should develop.  v1-8: humility, trust in God.

v21: Also an underlying message through the whole chapter - where your heart is determines where you will go.

v25+: I've heard someone use the fact that this is addressed to the 12 disciples as justification for seeking riches (if you're not one of the apostles).  Personally, I think there's a principle here.  Whether you're working to provide for yourself and your family, or whether you're in the full time service of the Lord, "seek ye first the kingdom of God".  The details may vary, but the priority shouldn't.

[askandanswer]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:51 AM, Jamie123 said:

This is more like me at the moment:

 Now feel very like the man in the picture (without the actual vomiting).

.

Clearly, this person is having difficulties eating chocolate cake. My recommendation for anybody who has an undeveloped skill is practice, practice, practice. You're going to have to significantly increase your chocolate cake consumption in order to get your skills up. You'll know your cake consumption skills are at the right level when you can finish two chocolate cakes in an hour and still be looking around for a third.