Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Dec - 17 Dec 2023 (3 Nephi 14 - 4 Nephi 1)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

This week's schedule:

Dec 11	3 Nephi 16	Monday
Dec 12	3 Nephi 18	Tuesday
Dec 13	3 Nephi 20	Wednesday
Dec 14	3 Nephi 22	Thursday
Dec 15	3 Nephi 26	Friday
Dec 16	3 Nephi 28	Saturday
Dec 17	4 Nephi 1	Sunday

 

Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 04 Dec - 10 Dec 2023 (Helaman 15 - 3 Nephi 13)

Thread Index

[zil2]

3 Nephi 14

More rules for living, from which attributes can be abstracted - mercy, generosity, humility, love, reverence, faith, compassion, kindness, respect, discipline, wisdom, work, diligence, obedience.

3 Nephi 15

One day, it occurred to me that when Christ says "the law of Moses", he might not mean the same things that the Pharisees meant, or that modern Jews might mean (for example).  We know the Pharasees (or the leaders of the Jews in ancient days at least) made up rules that weren't part of the law of Moses, to "hedge" the law so that no one could "come close" to breaking it.  While I'm not going to try at the moment, I think it would be worth studying what Christ might have meant by "law of Moses".  Certainly it would include the mandated animal sacrifices which were symbolic of Christ's atonement.

v1: remember and do - sometimes we make things more complicated than they are.  Don't forget to study and focus on the simple things Christ taught.

v5-8: Just because the law of Moses is fulfilled, that does not mean we can ignore the Old Testament - there are other prophecies and covenants which are not fulfilled, but which will be.

v9: Focus all you do on Christ - when you keep the commandments, keep them with a focus on Christ.

v18, 22-24, 16:4: Don't be stiffnecked, don't make assumptions, seek sure understanding - like the first Nephi did.

3 Nephi 16

v1-3: I really want to know where these folk were and to learn about the Savior's visit to them.  I expect he taught them the same thing as he taught the Nephites, but still, I want to learn more!

v4: Seek knowledge by the Holy Ghost!

v4-5: Wherever they were, all of Israel is now scattered and it's our job to help gather them.

v6-8: Be a believer!

v10: Sad days.

v11-15: Trust the Lord. Be part of the house of Israel.  Repent and be numbered.

[askandanswer]

We have to wait another 400 years until we get the words of this blessing from Moroni.

3 Nephi 18:3

 he took of the bread and brake and blessed it;

 

This makes it sound as if they ate quite a lot of bread - enough to be filled.

3 Nephi 18:4

 And when they had eaten and were filled,

 

The breaking of the bread is typically done by the Priests, and almost always involves two Priests and sometimes three.

3 Nephi 18:5

Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it 

 

There is no mention of the wine being blessed.

8 And it came to pass that when he said these words, he commanded his disciples that they should take of the ^awine of the cup and drink of it,

 

I'm just thinking about some of the other words that could have been used here. Always do FOR those who repent. Always do WITH those who repent.

3 Nephi 18:11

And this shall ye always do to those who repent

 

It takes only the smallest chink in our armour for Satan to find his way in.

3 Nephi 18:18

18 I say unto you, ye must watch and pray always lest ye enter into temptation; for Satan desireth to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.

 

It was only after the death of many thousands of the wicked that none were commanded to go away. Perhaps by that time there were no more wicked to stay away. 

3 Nephi 18:25

 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away,

 

Every broken commandment is evidence of having been led away into temptation and every broken commandment increases the likelihood of being led further away into temptation

3 Nephi 18:25

whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

 

The same action - partaking of the sacrament - has very different effects, depending on the condition of the person doing the action. For one it saves, for the other it damns.

3 Nephi 18:29

For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul;

 

Does this suggest that there is a set, definite number of people who will follow Christ?

3 Nephi 18:31

 for behold I know my sheep, and they are numbered.

 

Another reminder about disputations, given not very long after the previous reminder.

3 Nephi 18:34

And I give you these commandments because of the disputations which have been among you. And blessed are ye if ye have no disputations among you.

 

 

[zil2]

3 Nephi 17

v3: Don't settle for the meaning of the words alone (see v15-17).  Ponder and pray for more understanding (like the first Nephi did).

v4: There are those lost tribes again. Don't know why I'm so curious about where they were and what records they kept, but I am. Perhaps it's because we know about the Jaredites, Nephites, and Mulekites, but have zippo from the lost tribes.

v5-6+: Despite 1 and 4 (It's time for Christ to go elsewhere and do other things), he stays.  And clearly he stays for a long time.  I believe there's a lesson in this for us, rigid though our scheduling may be in this age of nanoseconds.

v8: Healing requires faith on the part of the one in need.  Increase in faith.

v14: I've always thought this was a strange moment for him to make this statement.

v15-18: They could understand, and yet they could neither speak nor write what they understood, nor could they even have imagined it themselves.  I often wonder about this.  Did he speak in their language, or (more likely IMO) allow them to understand a pure language (presumably the one we spoke as spirits)?  And what could he have said that filled their souls with inconceivable, overwhelming joy?

Apparently I'm incapable of imagining. But there have been times when, for example, I have felt overwhelming gratitude for a group of people such that there were no words to convey to them the depth and nature of the gratitude I felt (in part because there were long, complicated, and painful events preceding their actions about which they knew nothing, but which gave more meaning to their kindness than they could have imagined).  For them to know my gratitude would have required a transfer of experiences that gave additional meaning to their actions and formed the depth of my own feelings.  And we all know, there's no way to transfer entire experiences from one mortal mind to another.

So I wonder if this isn't part of it, that God's language can fully convey not just the dictionary meaning of words, but the emotional and every other meaning that exists in the speaker - the things in the speaker that led to the utterance.  Perhaps the language of God includes some form of shared thought and feeling.  I have no idea (and apparently can't have any idea), but I wonder about such things every time I read these passages.

(And when we get to Ether - spoiler alert - I'll wonder at how just 24 plates could contain as much as it says they contained.  Again, the language Ether used must have been a better one - or those were really, really big plates... )

v19: I wonder if his words didn't also include a bit of grace extended, so that they could arise.

v20: I doubt the wickedness of the people of the house of Israel mentioned in v14 (and I assume it was all the house of Israel, not just the multitude around him) had suddenly ceased, nor that Christ was no longer troubled by it.  But here we see that despite troubling things, one's joy can be "full".  Unless I'm wrong, I think this is another lesson to be learned - to have joy despite there being troubling things.

v21: Christ would, of course, know each one of these children.  Would remember their pre-mortal spirits and everything about them.  Don't forget that he knows you that well, too.  And is no less concerned for you than for each of those children.  Turn to him, run to him, forget whatever pitiful thing you can conceive and ask him for the things you cannot conceive.

3 Nephi 18

(NOTE: He still hasn't left!  Perhaps the lesson here is to tell people you have to leave several hours before you have to leave. )

I don't know if there's significance to this, but it is interesting to note the sequence: Christ gives the disciples power to baptize, then he administers the sacrament (before any have had the chance to be baptized), then he gives the disciples power to confer the Holy Ghost.

v5 and 11: These make it clear that the sacrament is for those who are baptized - or, that it's commanded to be given to those who have been baptized.  (There's nothing explicit about those who have not been baptized, though Christ himself just ordered it to be given to the multitude who have not yet been baptized into the new covenant - though he knows they will be, so....)

v1-14: Do as Christ commands (whatever the command may be) and don't alter the commands, and then you are "built on his rock".  Anything else has no power to withstand hard times.

v16: Christ is our example - learn of him and follow. (v24)

Multiple verses instruct us to pray, always in Christ's name.

v22: Come to church, let all who wish come to church.

v25: Invite all to come unto Christ.  Kicking people out - sending them away - is laying yourself open to temptation.

v31-32: Ministering.  Don't give up on anyone, because they might change (and we can't know whether they will, so don't give up).

v35: We don't know how his going to the Father was for their sakes, but it's interesting that we at least know it was.  Perhaps they needed a break so they could rest and ponder and record.

v38-39: Interesting that they were allowed to see him descend but not ascend.

[JohnsonJones]

As the Semester has ended I may be visiting with family and other things soon.  I will finish the BoM with you, but may not be here to comment much longer before it is done (limited as my commenting has been, even so, it will be less).

It's interesting how those who were there spread the word as far as they could and those who were able, or at least many of them, journeyed to get to the location where the Savior had been the day prior.  I wonder how far the message was able to spread.  They didn't have the technology of today, and it was soon after (perhaps) the greatest disaster their civilization had ever had.  In any case, it was a LOT of people that gathered. 

I was trying to think on this.  If we take modern day Atlanta and then hit it with a massive disaster, I suppose people who REALLY wanted others could know could travel 10-20 miles out.  That could take 5-10 hours in and of itself.  Then those who heard and really wanted, pack and walk back would be another 5-10 hours.  Putting it at a median of around 15 hours.  That would literally be walking through the night for each without any rest so that they could go.

I would hope that in this event I would make that type of effort if I were in similar circumstances.  It's easy to say you would, but looking at those type of numbers, it's more of a hope than an absolute.

I imagine many may have been extremely tired upon getting there the next day, but the events (the Disciples, then Angels, and finally the Savior again to minister to them) would probably be enough to keep many of them awake and engaged.

[Carborendum]

21 hours ago, zil2 said:

v38-39: Interesting that they were allowed to see him descend but not ascend.

There is an interesting phenomenon here that many think is only symbolism.  But I believe it to be a real phenomenon.

The "cloud" has been mentioned in the Bible many times as representing the "presence of God". (Ex 13:21; Num 9:15; Deut 1:33; 1 Ki 8:10; Isa 4:5; Eze 10:4; Matt 17:5; Mar 9:7; Luk 9:34; Rev 10:1 -- dozens more).

Some instances in scriptures are clearly symbolic.  But as some of these verses clearly indicate, it was more than just a symbol.  Quite often, when a "cloud" came down, it was because the presence of Jehovah was truly there.

I tend to believe that this wasn't like a cloud that we are thinking of.  It was "something" that obscured vision (e.g. something "clouds" our judgment).  But growing up with a professional photographer, I recognized that light can do some funny things.  If a light is too bright, it can obscure what it at the center, just as much as something which blocks light.  Bright light doesn't block, it overpowers.

I believe the "theophanic cloud" mentioned in scriptures was a divine analog of this light effect.

They were allowed to see Him descend because it was a second "condescension" for the lost sheep on the Wester continent.  He didn't expose His full glory.  But after He instituted the ordinances of the new dispensation to the Nephites, they were properly prepared to "look upon the face of God and live."  It was then that they were allowed to be present when Christ displayed His full glory to man.

Those further away could not see, essentially because of light effects.  But the 12 were right next to him.  And let's say they received the second comforter.  They could endure.  Because of their proximity, the light differential would have been different.

I'm not saying this is theologically accurate.  I'm just trying my best to explain something inexplicable with terms we are familiar with.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

3 Nephi 19

v2-3: IMO, this is true conversion.  After this experience, would you just go home, or would you race about letting the world know to come tomorrow to see the Savior?

v8: Would that my memory were so good.  I expect it was necessity (or convenience) that cause them to practice and have such good memories.  These days, who needs a memory when you have a computer?

v9: What do you desire most?

v18: Yesterday, Jesus taught them repeatedly to pray to the Father in Christ's name.  I wonder what prompted them to pray to Jesus instead - was it inspired, was it just his overwhelming presence, or...?  (NOTE: I'm not saying they did anything wrong - Christ doesn't say that - I'm just wondering where they got the idea.)

v20: If you wish to be chosen out of the world, believe in Christ.

v23: IMO, Christ was praying for you and me, as well as the multitudes who would hear these disciples in person. Also, to some degree, the idea of Christ being "in" us is explained here - to believe in Christ allows / enables him to be "in" us as the Father is in Christ.  (This continues in v29: have Faith, so that you can be purified in Christ, which allows him to be in you.)

v24: "...it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire." While more difficult, this is the way we should always pray - guided by the Holy Ghost.

v32: Again, language beyond human capacity to form (but not to understand). v33: One's "heart" is involved in the understanding.

v35-36: Faith precedes the miracle.

That entire sequence demonstrates prayers and the answering of prayers in short order.  Want your prayers answered?  Pray whatever Jesus would pray.  To figure out how to do that, see v24...

3 Nephi 20

v1-5: Progressive tutoring in administering the sacrament - as far as I can tell, last time, Jesus did all the breaking, this time, he has them do it.

v8: Repeated, proper participation in the sacrament ordinance should fill your soul.  If not, figure out why not, and change.

v16-21: Lots of scary things prophesied for the time just before the Lord comes again, but remember, that there are great blessings, protection, and power promised to those who make and keep covenants with God.

v25: Live so that others are blessed because you live.

v26: To be "turned away from your iniquities" - by whatever means, is a blessing.  Be grateful.

Trust Christ to gather and provide for his people.  Be one of his people!

[Jamie123]

20 hours ago, zil2 said:

v16-21: Lots of scary things prophesied for the time just before the Lord comes again, but remember, that there are great blessings, protection, and power promised to those who make and keep covenants with God.

This brings back memories. 3 Nephi was the first part of the Book of Mormon the missionaries had me read. I couldn't believe the violent things Jesus seemed to be saying, and since I had also been reading about blood atonement, Danites and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, when they came back a week later I told them theirs was "a very violent and disturbing religion". I was somewhat aware even then of the violence in the Old Testament (which is far worse than anything in the Book of Mormon) but I never quite connected it with "gentle Jesus meek and mild". The sisters gave me the "same yesterday today forever" thing, but I couldn't really get that. I vaguely saw the "Gods" of the Old and New Testaments somehow in opposition to each other (an idea which you find in Gnosticism and William Blake) but I was an atheist back then anyway.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

This brings back memories. 3 Nephi was the first part of the Book of Mormon the missionaries had me read. I couldn't believe the violent things Jesus seemed to be saying, and since I had also been reading about blood atonement, Danites and the Mountain Meadows Massacre, when they came back a week later I told them theirs was "a very violent and disturbing religion". I was somewhat aware even then of the violence in the Old Testament (which is far worse than anything in the Book of Mormon) but I never quite connected it with "gentle Jesus meek and mild". The sisters gave me the "same yesterday today forever" thing, but I couldn't really get that. I vaguely saw the "Gods" of the Old and New Testaments somehow in opposition to each other (an idea which you find in Gnosticism and William Blake) but I was an atheist back then anyway.

For pretty much all my life, I saw the God of the Old Testament as violent / vengeful.  Then I read Hugh Nibley (probably volume 1 of his collected works, titled Old Testament and Related Studies, but I can't remember for sure) who said that was the opposite of what the OT taught and that the God of the OT was merciful and generous.  I decided to go look for that (which I think was also Nibley's idea) by reading the OT from the start.  And either before or after carrying out that decision (can't remember), I realized that I had seen what the world had told me was there, without ever looking for anything different.  When I went looking for the God I knew, the one Nibley said was clearly manifest in the OT, that's exactly what I found - mercy and love and patience and grace beyond measure.  Were those "ripe in iniquity" violently destroyed?  Yep.  Do violent things happen? Yep - welcome to mortality.  But God himself demonstrated all those virtues Christ teaches.

If anyone reading this has not read the OT looking for a God of mercy, I cannot recommend the exercise strongly enough.  You will learn far more and be lifted by the beauty of what you find.  (But maybe wait until we're done with our intensive BofM reading! )

[zil2]

3 Nephi 21

(Continuing the same speech as yesterday.  The Lord had just told them about gathering Israel, some in the Americas, some at / around Jerusalem.)

v1: Zion is "the pure in heart".  IMO, this isn't establishing a city or nation, but the gospel.

v5: "which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity" - the unbelief follows iniquity.  Repent, give up sin, so that you don't dwindle in unbelief.  Choose to believe, so that belief strengthens and turns to faith, which leads to conversion - change of heart.

v1-5: God does all he can to redeem Israel, and (v6) the Gentiles, too.

v9: The restoration of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

v10: Joseph Smith

v11-21: Leading up to the Second Coming.

v22+: Repent.  Come unto Christ - v27: God will prepare the way for you to do that.

3 Nephi 22

God forgives and blesses those who repent and return to him.  Trust God.  PS: Here we have some of what I was talking about regarding the Old Testament.

3 Nephi 23

v1-3: This is tomorrow, but I'm noting the fact that it's linked to 22.  Christ has a lot of prophets to choose from, and he chooses Isaiah.  That should tell us something.

v2: This wording is really interesting.  Perhaps it just means that because the tribes of Israel are scattered, Isaiah can't speak all things related to them without also speaking to the Gentiles - or perhaps it's just because the gospel would be restored through the Gentiles.  Anywho, it seems like interesting phrasing.

v4+ I'll save for tomorrow.  Gotta go make zucchini bread now.

[Jamie123]

22:16  - I have created the smith... I wonder if that's a coincidence

[Carborendum]

3 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

22:16  - I have created the smith... I wonder if that's a coincidence

Interesting thought.  But I'm pretty sure that's just a coincidence.

[Carborendum]

40 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v2: This wording is really interesting.  Perhaps it just means that because the tribes of Israel are scattered, Isaiah can't speak all things related to them without also speaking to the Gentiles - or perhaps it's just because the gospel would be restored through the Gentiles.  Anywho, it seems like interesting phrasing.

Here's the breakdown.

• Isaiah addressed ALL things concerning (ALL) the House of Israel.
• We (modern day) are of the House of Israel.
• Therefore, the things concerning us are also addressed in the words of Isaiah.

I don't believe that this means ALL the words of Isaiah can be applied to All of Israel (both ancient and modern).  But it sure seems like a LOT of it can be applied to both generations.  And that stands to reason since all the things that happened to Ancient Israel are just historical realities of the cycle of empires.

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I wonder if that's a coincidence

Probably, but to quote Todd B. Parker, Professor in the Department of Ancient Scripture (at BYU) in part 4 of “True Doctrine, Understood, Changes Attitudes and Behavior” (January 20, 2015 devotional):

"...I don't think so."

It's one of my favorite speechess of all time.  Part 4 ("Principle Number 4: During Scripture Study, Search for Types of Christ" aka "all things testify of Christ") is amazing.  I strongly recommend watching the video instead of just reading (normally, I'm a reader, not a video person, but for this speech, you lose things if you don't watch the video).  It's a 30-minute video, unless, like me, you watch it at 2x - then it's only 15 minutes.   Part 4 starts at 18:37, but, IMO, if you start there, you'll just end up wanting to watch the whole thing, so I recommend you just start at the beginning.

 

[askandanswer]

This expounding of all things is a rare event. From what I recall, I believe it is only to a very small group of major prophets, for example, Moses, Abraham, John the Revelator, Enoch and Nephi and a few others, to whom all things are revealed. And just as those prophets were commanded not to reveal what they had been taught, it seems clear, from later verses, that these people were also commanded to not reveal what they had been taught

 

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.

 

Taking a negative view of this experience, we could conclude that the positive benefits of having these scriptures was withheld from these people up until this point.

3 Nephi 26:2

And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; 

 

 

There are suggestions that the Earth might become similar to the sea of glass referred to in Revelations and Doctrine and Covenants 130. Great heat is required to produce glass, I think it involves the melting of silica which is composed of the two elements oxygen and silica, and once its melted you can shape and blow and wrap it into any form you want.

3 Nephi 26:3

  even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll,

 

 

I wander if it will be the case that an action which was deemed as good at one time or place will be deemed as bad at another time. Two people from different times and cultures may have committed the same act but be judged differently for it. It was once thought to be a good thing to burn alive people who were thought to be witches but that would be frowned upon now.

3 Nephi 26:4

 And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

 

I believe that as spirits and as intelligences we already had everlasting life and that no resurrection was needed for spirits because they had not died. Abraham taught part of this in Abraham 3:18. I'm not sure of the nature or extent to which the resurrection had any effect on the longevity of spirits but I understand that it made possible the resurrection of the body. If the resurrection applies only to the body being restored to life - the spirit having never lost its life - then the relationship between justice and the resurrection becomes less clear because all bodies will be brought back to life, unconditionally, with no regard to righteousness or wickedness.

3 Nephi 26:5

If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation;

 

I'm reminded of the system Joseph Smith set out in Doctrine and Covenants 128, probably through inspiration, for recording baptisms for the dead. That system made possible the recording of enormous amounts of data from multiple locations in one "book."

So first we have the teachings of Jesus in their totality. Then a small part, perhaps less than a hundredth, of those teachings recorded on the plates of Nephi. Then Moroni abridges those plates, leaving out even more of Christ's teachings. We are left with about 16 chapters of Christ's direct and personal teachings in this other Testament of Jesus Christ - 3rd Nephi 11 - 27 compared to 15 chapters of political intrigue and wars between the Nephites and the Lamanites in Alma 47 - 62.

3 Nephi 26:6

And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;

[zil2]

3 Nephi 23

v4: "Therefore give heed to my words" = "Give heed to my words because [v1-3]":

• great are the words of Isaiah (so great that we ought to search them, so great the Lord commands us to search them diligently)
• Isaiah's teachings address everything related to the House of Israel
• Which means he also spoke to the Gentiles
• And everything Isaiah spoke has been and will be as he spoke

"my words": Are these what's about to come, or the words given in previous chapters?  Of course, it doesn't really matter, just give heed to all of Christ's words, whenever, wherever, and to whomever they were spoken.

v6, 14: I'm sad that we get the scriptures but not the expounding.  Something to look forward to - the expounding.

v7-13: Records are important.  Keep records!

v14: "all the scriptures in one" - the scriptures do not contradict.  They are one, just as the Godhead is one.  If it seems otherwise, it is due to man's weakness or sin.  Work hard to receive the Holy Ghost so that you can overcome your own weakness and sin, and learn in spite of others'.

I also note that they were taught from their own records.  It is therefore reasonable to believe that when the Lord teaches us more, he will use our own records (scriptures and General Conference talks) to do it.  It is therefore reasonable to think that studying the scriptures and GC talks now will facilitate your further learning when the Lord "expounds all the scriptures in one".

(Sidenote: Oh, if only the entire loaf of zucchini bread¹ could be the top crust - holy yummy crunchiness, Batman! Yes, I'm having zucchini bread for breakfast. Sue me. )

3 Nephi 24

v1: More expounding that we don't have.   Footnote b is interesting - "messenger" doesn't have to be a person, it can also be God's "everlasting covenant".  (Interesting that this is circular - the covenant prepares us for the Lord's return, but the Lord is the "messenger of the covenant" who brings and restores his covenant so that it can then prepare us for his return. )

v2-3: Resolve to get refined, cleaned, purified, and purged, however painful it may sound.

v8-9: Failure to give tithes and offerings is to rob God - that's pretty serious language, worth pondering: what does it say about God?  About the things we possess, about us?

v10: What blessings come from "the windows of heaven"?  Revelation.  Truth.  Light.  Need those in your life?  Pay tithes and offerings (sincerely, willingly, not begrudgingly).

v11-12: More blessings - a form of "obey and prosper" (a group blessing).

v14-15: Sounds very like our day.  I often think we believe these lies - that it doesn't "profit" to obey God, and that the proud are happy, the wicked prosper - because we lust after the vain things of the world (and therefore don't pay tithes and offerings because we need that money to pay for the vain things of the world).

v16-18: But when Christ comes, the truth will be known, and all will understand.  Seek to overcome greed and lusting for the vain things of the world so that it's not so painful later.

3 Nephi 25

v1: Pains to be avoided.

v2: Healing awaits.  Fear God.

v4: Keep the commandments.

v5-6: @Jamie123, in case you don't already know, we believe that this is a reference to family history and proxy temple work so that our ancestors have the opportunity to progress in the gospel through covenants (made by proxy in the temple) and so that we are sealed together in an unending family line all the way back to Adam.

3 Nephi 26

v1, 3: Having had all the scriptures expounded, and the "critical missing" scriptures added, the people were now prepared to learn "all things".  This is something we all should work toward.  Whenever the equivalent might happen in any of our lives (mortal or post-mortal), we should continually see greater knowledge and understanding from the Lord.  As @askandanswer pointed out, this appears to be a rare privilege indeed.

v2: It's given to the people of that time so that it could be given to future generations (ours).  Another thing worthy of pondering.

v5: I would suggest, @askandanswer, that "everlasting life" means more than the dictionary definitions of the words would suggest, and that only a resurrected being can experience what God means by "everlasting life".  (And given that the Book of Mormon peoples seem to have known nothing about the three degrees of glory², knowing only the two extremes, it's reasonable to assume that in this context, it means the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom.)

²Though if Christ expounded all things from the creation up through judgement day, you'd think that at least these people knew about the three degrees of glory, but who knows - it doesn't say anything about after judgement day, so maybe this knowledge was still kept from them - perhaps due to their tendency to flip flop to extremes.

 v6: Apparently we have a lot to learn.

v9-10: Strive to live up to what we have received.  It's the only way to receive more.

v14: "...even greater than he had revealed unto the people..."  Now there's a thing.  Truly, the Lord is humble beyond imagining.  We should strive to be humble as we can manage.

v19: Deal justly.

v20: Do as Christ commands.

On 12/14/2023 at 8:47 AM, zil2 said:

Gotta go make zucchini bread now.

¹For the record, zucchini bread is one of God's greatest gifts to mankind.  I like to double the amount of nuts.  You can use pecans if you prefer.  Technically, you could leave out the nuts, but that would make you nuts - unless you're allergic to nuts, in which case, this is me, mourning with those who mourn: .

[zil2]

20 hours ago, zil2 said:

and the "critical missing" scriptures added

As I was transcribing this into my journal, I got curious.  Lehi and family left during the time of Jeremiah and the brass plates had "many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah."  So of our Old Testament books, the Lehites would not have had:

Jeremiah (partial)
Lamentations (partial?)
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

And of these, the Lord gives them only Malachi, and only two chapters.  IMO, that should be like getting smacked upside the head by a 2x4 of Malachi 3 & 4.

Edited December 16, 2023 by zil2

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

As I was transcribing this into my journal, I got curious.  Lehi and family left during the time of Jeremiah and the brass plates had "many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah."  So of our Old Testament books, the Lehites would not have had:

Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

And of these, the Lord gives them only Malachi, and only two chapters.  IMO, that should be like getting smacked upside the head by a 2x4 of Malachi 3 & 4.

Another intersting thing to note about Malachi 4:6 is that it is the only verse I can remember at the moment that can be found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. It seems as though the Lord really wanted us to have that particular teaching. 

[Jamie123]

On 12/14/2023 at 10:05 PM, askandanswer said:

which is composed of the two elements oxygen and silica

Silicon, not silica (which is silicon dioxide) but otherwise you are correct.

[zil2]

People who complain about global warming have clearly not read the Revelation of John (or 3rd Nephi) recently enough.  Obviously, if the earth is going to be turned into a sea of glass, it's gonna need to get a lot hotter!  No need to worry about global warming, just repent!

3 Nephi 27

v1: How sad to be one of those who wasn't there, who only found out later what they missed.

v2: Our world is so thing-oriented that when I read, "What will ye that I shall give unto you?" I subconsciously think "What physical thing will ye...."  God has much better to give than things.  Clearly, I need to work harder to get Babylon's programming out of my brain.

Meanwhile, the fact that Christ asks them what they want intrigues me.  My imagination first came up with this scenario: The disciples are praying to God, asking about the name of the Church.  God says to Jesus, "Your Nephite disciples are asking obvious questions again.  Go set them straight."  (Without revealing what was prayed for.)  The problem here, of course, is that at this point, Christ should know everything, so even if they didn't say in their prayer what they want, he should know anyway.  Yet, he still asks them to speak their request.  No idea why that caught my attention, but it did.

One (related) conclusion I have come to (years past) is that although God already knows everything, he still wants us to talk to him.  That's gotta be a special kind of love.  Me, I'd get impatient: "Yeah, yeah, I already know all that, get on with it..."

v3: Clearly these people are prospering again, because only prosperous people have time to argue about the name of the church.

v5-7, 9: This lesson isn't just for naming the church, nor for church leaders.  All of us are to do everything in the name of Christ.  Take his name upon you and then act as if you were him, or at least representing him, all the time.  Talk about "always remember him".  If we could manage to do this, we would sin a lot less.  A good topic to ponder during the Sacrament would be, "What am I doing that cannot be done in Christ's name?"

v7: "...that he will bless the church for my sake."  There's an interesting idea.  I doubt I've ever heard a prayer making that request.  Perhaps I'll start doing this.  And it can go two ways - bless the church, not because the church is worthy in and of themselves, but because Christ is worthy and it's his church; or, bless the church because as the church is blessed, so too is Christ blessed.

v13-21: Believe in Christ, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, be faithful and endure to the end, do the things Christ did.

v23-26: I don't think it's only the prophets who are to write the things they have seen and heard.  We are to do that, too.  I tend to think that when we are judged out of these books, it will be a comparison between what we did and what the scriptures we had taught us to do.  E.g. the restored Church will not be judged by how well they kept the law of Moses; and those under the law of Moses will not be judged by how well they followed the teachings in the Doctrine & Covenants.  (And yes, for the record, I'm quite confident God uses a fountain pen for writing in his books. )

v27: Strive to be like Christ.

v30: There are people in heaven who want you to come back.  Give them reason to rejoice!

v32: Don't be the fourth generation.  Don't trade Christ for "stuff".

3 Nephi 28

v2-3: Apparently 72 is "the age of man".

v6-10, 37-39: Parts of this sound great, but can you imaging 2000+ years of dealing with mortals being wicked?  It would take a strong person not to fall into complete depression or not to start to hate people, etc.  These three, and John, truly love the Lord and the rest of us.

v9-10: How to have as much joy as possible:

Quote

...for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; ...

v13-16: The things of heaven are too much for this world.  Respect sacred things.

v19-22: Would make good scenes for a fantasy adventure story.

v27-29, 32: Take note - these three disciples of Christ are among us, somewhere.

v32: "a great and marvelous work wrought by them" - I wonder if this has reference to the restoration, or if to something else, yet to come.

v34: Receive and hearken to Christ's words.

Edited December 16, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

28:6 - There is a long-running tradition John never died and is still somewhere alive today. But if this is true, it's odd that John  21:23 makes it very clear that Jesus did not promise this. Maybe the JST says something different?

[zil2]

24 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

28:6 - There is a long-running tradition John never died and is still somewhere alive today. But if this is true, it's odd that John  21:23 makes it very clear that Jesus did not promise this. Maybe the JST says something different?

I expect it depends on what "die" means.  The three disciples are promised they won't "taste death" but will be changed from mortal (though translated) to immortal (resurrected) in the twinkling of an eye.  Does that mean they won't die?  I don't know.  Can you be resurrected without dying first?  Perhaps they'll die and be resurrected in said twinkling.  Perhaps that will be fast enough that they don't "taste death".

Whatever the case, we believe John and the three disciples were translated - changed to a mortal form that doesn't suffer (as described in 3 Nephi 28).  As to John 21:23:

Quote

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

What does it mean that John will "tarry till [Christ] come[s]"?  And how could he do that unless translated?  But this verse reads to me like John was correcting the rumor - perhaps people thought that "should not die" meant he would remain as he was for eternity - that wasn't possible.  Perhaps it was something that wasn't supposed to be talked about.

I also note the link to Luke 9:26-27:

Quote

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

v26 = Second Coming.  v27: some standing there won't die until the Second Coming.  We know of John.  Whether there were any others (not the others of the 12, that's pretty clear), we don't know.

Anywho, we believe that John, like these three disciples (commonly called "the three Nephites") was translated into a state as described in 3 Nephi 28 and that they minister among mortals unknown to said mortals.

Edited December 16, 2023 by zil2

[Carborendum]

11 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

28:6 - There is a long-running tradition John never died and is still somewhere alive today. But if this is true, it's odd that John  21:23 makes it very clear that Jesus did not promise this. Maybe the JST says something different?

Yes and no.

We believe he was changed somehow.  But Jesus pointed to the fact that the claim "he would never die" is not entirely accurate.  We all will have to die at some point. But he was allowed to "tarry".

Quote

yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

We know of a state called Translation.  This means that a mortal man will be raised to a Terrestrial state of being.  We don't really know what this is.  But it is a higher state than we now experience.  Yet it is not a resurrected Celestial state.  They have not actually died.  The spirit never separated from the body.  But at some point they will have to experience death "in the twinkling of an eye."  So, essentially, an instantaneous death (separation of spirit from body) followed by a reuniting of the spirit and body with a Celestial glory.

What some debate is this additional state of tarrying.  Some say this is translation.  Some say otherwise. 

• We, today, live in a mortal telestial world. 
• Those that tarry live in an immortal state with Telestial glory so they can wander on this earth and blend in.
• We don't know if John tarried or if he was translated.

I don't know if it really matters.  For all practical purposes, they seem to function the same as far as we know.

• They are ageless
• Don't need food or rest.
• They are free from disease or physical harm. 
• They feel no pain except sorrow for the sins of mankind.

So whether that is two states or the same state doesn't really make much of a difference.

 

[askandanswer]

This sounds so similar to the fairy tale story of the fairy God-mother offering to grant one wish. It reminds me of Solomon who was invited to ask God for whatever he wanted.

3 Nephi 28:1

he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?

 

 

I wander if latter day prophets have any say about the timing of their relocation.

3 Nephi 28:2

We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom

 

.

I suspect that in this verse the word kingdom is not being used in the same way as it is usually used in many other verses. "My kingdom" usually refers to the celestial kingdom but it would be unusual if that is where the disciples went on reaching the age of 72. The usual destination is the spirit world, which is certainly part of God's kingdom, but which is not usually referred to as "my kingdom."

 

ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest.

 

 

The sense in which rest is being used here is not clear. They will certainly be very busy so rest is not being used in the context of not working. Its typically interpreted as rest from the cares of the world. whatever they may be, but I'm not sure where that interpretation comes from or how valid it is. Maybe it means rest from physical appetites because it is fairly likely that such appetites will not be present at a time when we are seperate from our body.

3 Nephi 28:3

and with me ye shall find rest.

 

 

It was the Romans who did the actual lifting up. Even if we were to apply the more usual interpretation, it might be more accurate to say that Christ was lifted up by only a very small percentage of Jewish people, rather than suggesting it was the Jews in general.

I did a quick search on the phrase lifted up. In the Book of Mormon it usually refers to "increasing" eg, the people began to be lifted up in their pride or the voices of the people began to be lifted up. Sometimes it means something like being resurrected, as in Mosiah 23:22. Only rarely, and I suspect only by Christ, is the phrase lifted up used to refer to a manner of execution. Its interesting to reflect on the differences between being lifted up by the Jews and being uplifted by the Jews. 

3 Nephi 28:6

before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

[zil2]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This sounds so similar to the fairy tale story of the fairy God-mother offering to grant one wish.

I'm reasonably certain that every religion and every story the world has ever known devolved from truth.

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The sense in which rest is being used here is not clear. They will certainly be very busy so rest is not being used in the context of not working. Its typically interpreted as rest from the cares of the world. whatever they may be, but I'm not sure where that interpretation comes from or how valid it is. Maybe it means rest from physical appetites because it is fairly likely that such appetites will not be present at a time when we are seperate from our body.

Those of us fortunate to have either work we love, or a productive hobby we love (whether quilting or woodworking or carving or painting or whatever), know that work can be rest if you love the work.  And those of us unfortunate enough to have to do work (generally to earn a living) which we don't (fully) love know that sometimes you need rest from that work.

I have read (I think from one of the prophets) that our spirit will still crave those things which our body loved (whether that's cigarettes or chocolate cake) and that we will have to overcome that (either in the body or (more difficult) as a spirit, or even, I think, in the resurrection - that latter may have been Brigham Young).

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

It was the Romans who did the actual lifting up. Even if we were to apply the more usual interpretation, it might be more accurate to say that Christ was lifted up by only a very small percentage of Jewish people, rather than suggesting it was the Jews in general.

Or perhaps the majority of the Jews supported the scribes, Pharisees, and other leaders who spoke for them.  Of course, "by the Jews" isn't necessarily the same as "by all the Jews".