Book of Mormon Reading Group: 25 Dec - 31 Dec 2023 (Ether 8 - Moroni 10)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

Hooray!!  Last week!  We made it!   Don't give up now!  Christmas day's reading is a doozie, though, so you may want to plan some rearranging of chapters to read more sooner and / or later.

This week's schedule:

Dec 25	Ether 10	Monday
Dec 26	Ether 12	Tuesday
Dec 27	Ether 13	Wednesday
Dec 28	Moroni 2	Thursday
Dec 29	Moroni 7	Friday
Dec 30	Moroni 9	Saturday
Dec 31	Moroni 10	Sunday

 

Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 18 Dec - 24 Dec 2023 (Mormon 1 - Ether 7)

Thread Index

[Carborendum]

Regarding  Moroni 10:31-32

Compare:

Quote

1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

 -- Isaiah 52: 1-2

Notice this is repeated twice in the Book of Mormon.  Then a third time with an alteration.

Quote

31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

 -- Moroni 10:31-32

I believe it was a dispensational change just as the baptism prayer was changed after the resurrection.

To be more clear, here is my personal interpretation/modification.

Quote

Awake!  And arise!

Shake thyself from the dust of the earth.

Put on thy beautiful garments that ye may come unto Christ and be perfected in Him.

Deny yourselves of all ungodliness so that ye may fulfill thy covenants with the Eternal Father.

And sit down upon thy throne.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

Ether 8

v2: Once again, beware people who use flattering or cunning words.

v9: This is interesting.  I don't remember a previous mention of a record, just that Ether's record included things from Adam on.  I think I always imagined an oral history.  But Adam kept records, and I would expect any who try to obey God to keep records, so, yeah, makes sense.  Sad that Jared's daughter ignored the tragedies that come from secret combinations and instead decided this would be a good tool to get what she wanted.

v10 (et al): Don't sin, not even for the prettiest girl in town.

v13: I'm thinking this family was already pretty wicked if Akish trusted them enough to tell the whole lot that he planned to murder the king. If your family is this wicked, maybe go find better folk to hang out with.

v17: "fair promises" - if it sounds too good to be true...

v23-25: If it sounds too good to be true...  (And how else do you overthrow freedom other than to promise wealth and easy and health and whatever other things everyone wants?  But no one can deliver such things  - people have to work for them or they won't happen.)

v26: Strive to do good continually.  Come to Christ and be saved!

Ether 9

v1-3: When the Lord tells you to get up and leave, don't drag your feet.   If you have to leave some things of value behind, do it - your life and obeying the Lord are of more value.

v5, 7: There is no loyalty or love among the wicked.  (One wonders where Jared's daughter was, and whether it was her son.)

v11: The people: "Well, as long as we've got money, we don't really care what our government is doing."

v12: Sometimes the wicked destroy each other quickly.

v19: Alas, still haven't found me a source for a pet curelom or even a cumom.

v20: Just serve the Lord.

v28+: When you don't have freedom of religion, but government oppression thereof, bad things follow.

v34: This is seriously stubborn - I'm just going to chase after carcasses to feed on and only after they and all other food are gone will I consider repenting.   Don't be that stubborn!  Don't move that far from the Lord!  Repent early and often.

 

Saving chapter 10 for Christmas day.

[zil2]

I plan to adjust the remainder of our schedule as follows (for me):

Ether 10 on Christmas Monday

Ether 11 on Tuesday ('cuz Tuesday is always busy for me)

Ether 12 and 13 on Wednesday

And according to the schedule for all the rest.

Just FYI.

[zil2]

Ether 10

v2: Again, remembering what the Lord has done helps one to remain faithful.  Spend time today remembering the Lord (shouldn't be hard).

v3: Don't the the sort of person who only brings peace to others by dying.

v28-: When the people are righteous, they prosper; when the leaders are wicked, people suffer.

v31: Oh, the lock icon (in my PDF, last week's thread) means they lived their whole life in captivity.

[askandanswer]

I suspect that this statement is probably limited to faith only in those things which are true. There are many things, for example, that Sikhs have faith in, that will certainly not be brought to pass. And if we are being pedantic, I would speculate that it is by the power of the Priesthood that things happen more so than faith.

Ether 12:3

by faith all things are fulfilled

 

 

The danger of having a testimony built on signs.

Ether 12:5

which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

 

 

I guess that once we have seen something our faith is replaced by knowledge. But we see from 3rd Nephi 1 22 and 30 that even knowledge is insufficient.

Ether 12:6

faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; 

 

 

How important is it for that belief to be focussed on something which is accurate/true. Is a belief in God with a body as tangible as man's better or the same as a belief in God as a spirit? If we were to accept the idea that both beliefs were of equal value, then it opens the question of where do we draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable beliefs in G/god. Is a belief in God the same as a belief in Allah? Is a belief in Allah the same as a belief in Krishna or Zeus? How does a belief in a god compare with belief in the God? From what i recall, there was a lengthy discussion of a question like this from a forum member a month or two back who seemed to be in favour of what he termed a universalist view. The first of the ten commandments suggests that its important to worship the right God and that belief in other gods is actually somewhat sinful.

Ether 12:4

 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God 

 

 

This is often a difficult concept for investigators to understand and accept. Man's way is show me and I will believe, God's way is believe and I will confirm.

Ether 12:6

wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

 

There are perhaps 70,000 missionaries and many others involved in preparing a way for others to partake of the heavenly gift but only Christ could have overcome the otherwise insurmountable barriers that were in the way.

Ether 12:8

But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, 

 

 

I have difficulty with the idea that there are any limits on the ability of God to do miracles.

I note that Mark 6:5 expresses a similiar idea that there is a connection between faith and God's/Christ's willingness/ability to do miracles.

Ether 12:12

 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; 

 

 

This raises a question that might be interesting. Did Alma and Amulek have faith that the walls of the prison would tumble or was their faith more in the general idea that they would be freed? I guess it makes sense that our faith should be centred on outcomes rather than methods.

Ether 12:13

Behold, it was the faith of Alma and Amulek that caused the prison to tumble to the earth.

 

 

This seems to support the idea that it is not necessary that the recipients/beneficiaries/targets of a miracle to have faith, but that it is necessary for the person calling for such a miracle to have faith. There may be some inconsistencies with that idea and the idea that it is the faith of a person receiving a Priesthood blessing that makes that blessing operative, more so than the faith of the person giving the blessing.

Ether 12:14

Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

 

One faith filled individual can make a huge difference.

Ether 12:15

 Behold, it was the faith of Ammon and his brethren which wrought so great a miracle among the Lamanites.

 

 

 

 

[zil2]

Ether 11

After reading the heading: One might think all this doom and gloom is depressing, and couldn't Mormon and Moroni have spent some more time abridging the good times, but we have to remember, they were instructed to write this for our day - a day the Lord showed them.  In short, it is warning us of our future and how to avoid it, if we will.  Utter destruction awaits all who "ripen" in iniquity, so don't do that!  Follow Jesus Christ instead!

v3: Those who receive the prophets are blessed.

v21: The Lehites.

v23: Note that Ether is born in captivity, in the line of the "rightful" kings, descended from Jared.  And that right now (per v17), a descendant of the brother of Jared has them in captivity and is the king.  (IMO, this will matter when the story resumes.)

If I have time (which seems unlikely), I'll try to get chapter 12 in today - we'll see.  It's a doozie and worth spending a lot of time on - one of the great discourses on faith.

[zil2]

Ether 12

This chapter probably deserves multiple days and a group discussion in real time.  I consider it one of the best discourses on faith out there.  For reference, when I think of faith, I generally think of two or three different definitions:

1. The kind of faith described in Lectures on Faith.  The principle of action - that any action you do is driven by faith in an outcome, basically.  I believe this is the sort of faith God has / uses - to see what could be and act as if it already were / were certain.

2. Faith in Jesus Christ - this is the faith that leads to salvation.

3. Faith in any other true principle or virtue - faith that kindness or patience are worth practicing, faith that following the prophet will yield positive results, faith that the Book of Mormon contains true teachings which can improve the lives of those who act accordingly, etc.  This is the sort of faith Alma described when he talked about planting the word of God in your heart (and perhaps also #2, since Alma also taught of Christ).

4. I guess technically, there's a fourth, where it's used synonymously with "religion" or "belief system".

v1: The king is descended from the brother of Jared and is a usurper.  He or his predecessor(s) held the rightful king and his heirs captive.  Ether is one of those heirs - perhaps the person who should be king.

v2: Seek to follow the Lord to the extent that you are filled with the Spirit.

v3: "by faith all things are fulfilled" - that principle of action type of faith.  But also, #2 & 3 - by faith in Christ, we receive the word and by obedience to the word, we receive forgiveness and blessings.

v4: The surety comes only because you know that God keeps his promises (faith, knowledge of the character of God and the history of his dealings with me - through scripture).  Your faith gives you hope and that hope makes an anchor for your soul.  Anchors always have a chain or rope that is attached to something else - otherwise, they're no good.  If your hope is an anchor to your soul, then the other end has to be attached to Jesus Christ - the only sure thing to which one can anchor.  And your good works strengthen that connection and keep the hope and faith strong (see John 7:17).

v5: The Lord doesn't work the way the world does - you must believe before you can see.  Why?  Because it is your belief and faith (acting on that belief) that creates the thing you wish to see.  Belief is the idea (or hope).  Faith is the act of creation.

v6: The Lord will test our ability to have faith in him, to be faithful to him, and to live by faith - to act according to the agency we've been given - which means to act in his name (or in our own, to our condemnation).

v7-9: Christ showed by his resurrection that resurrection is possible.  His existence gives reason to hope and to have faith that the word of God is true and that God will keep his promises and that through Christ, we can be saved.  This is the anchor and our connection to it - our hope.

v10+: The prophets of old were called by faith.  They were able to do their work because they had faith (and the doing of that word was acting in faith).

v11: Christ makes all things possible for all of us, if we will have faith in Christ.

v12: I personally believe this is very literal and that whatever examples we may have that seem contrary are merely incidences where we don't have sufficient information.  Perhaps there are times when the interpretation is that the children of men will not perceive the miracle (despite it having happened, through the faith of someone) - is a miracle that is not perceived as a miracle still a miracle?  Or was it just an unexplained event?  A missed blessing?

v18: Here faith is explicitly tied to the Son of God.  No other faith has power to work miracles.  Indeed, even faith #3 (in principles, truths, virtues) is tied to Christ since he is the source of all truth and all good things.  If you are trying to help someone who is struggling and don't know what else to do, help them to increase their faith in Christ.

v19: Back to faith type #1 and verse 5 - first, you see with an eye of faith (the idea, the belief, the hope), second you act in faith to create (bring about, instantiate) what you saw only through faith, and then, once it has been created, your eyes see it.  This is how you create (bring about, instantiate), or allow God to create, all good things in your life: whether it's creating worlds without number, or rending the veil of unbelief and entering into the presence of God, or overcoming sin and weakness, or gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon, or believing that you can keep trying to be faithful for one more day - whatever it is, if it is a true thing, then seeing it in faith, and acting as if it is a surety will yield the foreseen results.  "...and they were glad."

v20-22: There are already many promises available to you.  These verses suggest to me that there's nothing wrong with seeking promises from the Lord - but as with all things, we should seek the promises with which the Lord already wishes to bless us.  Our patriarchal blessings may constitute such promises.

v23-26: There are multiple ways that the Lord may bless people.  Rather than be upset by the blessing you lack, seek to learn what you have, and then to seek more, according to the Lord's will

v26: Do not mock.  Just don't.  It's hard in this world, but break yourself of the habit.  We are all made in the image of God.  God is not to be mocked, therefore his children shouldn't be.  The works of God should not be mocked, therefore the works of his children shouldn't be.  Unworthy works should be lamented, mourned, avoided, or ignored, but don't risk your soul for the fun of mockery - it's an arrogant form of amusement.

"my grace is sufficient for the meek" - not for the proud, for the meek - "that they shall take no advantage of your weakness" - don't take advantage of others because of their weakness - don't cheat them because they are ignorant or foolish.  Don't mock them because they couldn't express themselves well or don't dress nicely.  Be meek, be humble, invite the Lord's grace.

v27: And oh how we need that grace.  The Lord has blessed us to be weak (note that weakness is singular), recognize it and be humble so that you can work in the strength of the Lord, by his grace.

v28: Plead for faith, hope, and charity.

v29: Believe what the Lord tells you!

v30: Perhaps you will never need to move a physical mountain, but all of us have symbolic mountains we need to move.  Do it through faith in Christ.

v31+: Prayer can include telling the Lord what you've learned about him - bearing testimony.  This can be a way to learn more, solidify what you learned, and receive correction of misunderstanding.

v34: "except men shall have charity" - this can work both ways - we must receive the gift (v36) of having charity toward others, but we also must be willing the receive the charity that Christ has for us - if we reject either, we cannot inherit eternal life.

v35: Moroni has been working through the logic / principle that Christ taught him.  Do you do that in prayer?  Perhaps we should do that in prayer.

Also, if you reject the gifts of God, he starts to take them away from you and give them to others.  Don't reject the gifts of God.

v36: Charity is a gift given to us, not a skill we develop on our own.  Practice it (pretend, work, think), but also plead for it.

v37: What a notion: "it mattereth not unto thee".  I can't expound on it, but it strikes me as something to ponder.  Learn to really see your weakness - be humble and meek.

v39: "in plain humility" - it's Christ's humility being described here!  He sets the example.  He always goes before.

v41: Do this - seek Jesus!  Seek him in scripture, seek him through your actions, seek him through the witness of the Holy Ghost.

[askandanswer]

Sounds similar to Lehi

Ether 13

He prophesies, is cast out,

 

 

I think the same applies to every other land.

Ether 13:2

wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;

 

 

I'm guessing this is referring to the destruction by the Babylonians rather than the destruction by the Romans. I'm not sure for how long Jerusalem remained a holy city.

Ether 13:5

And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city

 

 

I guess this could be interpreted in two ways. One way is that the house of Joseph is a remnant of a larger part and the other way is a remnant, or part, of the house of Joseph. If we take the latter interpretation then that raises questions about the rest of the house of Joseph.

Ether 13:8

Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph

 

 

Right now, Independence, Missouri sounds like the most likely contender, but at the moment that location is a long way from what it needs to be. Salt Lake probably used to be something like a holy city, but it no longer seems to have the character it once did, and Nauvoo is still not much more than a village. I note its exactly 80 miles from  Adam-ondi-ahman to the Temple Lot, Independence, Missouri.

Ether 13:8

Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old;

 

 

This may suggest that at some point there will be a lot of baptisms in the old Jerusalem.

Ether 13:11

 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb;

 

Why is this past tense?

Ether 13:10

and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel.

 

The Lord seems to be exercising tight editorial control on decisions about what is not written. I wander if there was the same degree of control over what was written.

Ether 13:13

And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; 

 

 

Night time is not usually the best time to do observations - its usually quite dark. What and how much could Ether view at this time?

Ether 13:13

and by night he went forth viewing the things which should come upon the people.

 

 

In verse 13 Moroni mentions how great and marvellous were the prophecies of Ether but they don't seem to have had any impact.

Ether 13:17

and in fine, there were none of the fair sons and daughters upon the face of the whole earth who repented of their sins.

 

 

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. And the same deal is on the table for all of us, all the time - repent and be spared, don't repent and you won't be spared.

Ether 13:20–21

he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself.

 

 

I wander if these are Jaredite place names or Nephite place names.

Ether 13:28

did pursue him until he came to the plains of Heshlon.

 

 

 

[askandanswer]

Moroni is writing for the benefit of those who are killing the Nephite Christians.

Moroni 1

Moroni writes for the benefit of the Lamanites—The Nephites who will not deny Christ are put to death. 

 

 

So after they've killed all the Nephites they start killing themselves. Satan was not content with the destruction of one group of people, he wanted them all dead.

Moroni 1:2

 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves

 

 

This sounds vaguely similar to Darius and his decree that anybody who prayed to God should be cast into a den of lions.

Moroni 1:2

because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.

 

 

This makes me think of Hebrews 9: 16 - 17 and Doctrine and Covenants 135:5

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the ctestator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force.

Joseph Smith calmly went to his death. Moroni actively sought for ways to avoid it. I wander how he died.

Moroni 1:3

And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.

 

 

This shows enormous magnanimity by Moroni.

Moroni 1:4

but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

 

 

It sounds like they were disciples before they received the Aaronic Priesthood.

Moroni 2:1

The words of Christ, which he spake unto his disciples, the twelve whom he had chosen, 

[zil2]

Ether 13

v2: Personally, I consider this testimony of a global flood.  Think of it what you will.

We know from elsewhere that where much is given, much is expected.  That's the only reason I can think of for special emphasis on this chosen land.  After all, I think @askandanswer is right - the Lord wants all people everywhere to serve him.

v4: @Jamie123, I've mentioned it before, but here's another example - we believe that all the prophets knew and testified of Christ.

v7-8: That the Lord seems to go to great lengths to preserve genealogical lines emphasizes to me the importance of sealing parents and children back through the generations - as if the Lord needs individuals throughout each of these lines to do the work of sealing those lines - or something.  I expect we'll learn much more in the Millennium.

v11: The Lord fulfills his promises.

v13: Don't cast out (literally or figuratively) the Lord's prophets.

v17: I couldn't connect Cohor and Corihor to anyone or any title.  I'd guess they were leaders of the day?

v21: Interesting that Coriantumr was chosen to be the lone survivor.  Perhaps this was as punishment.

v22: It's sort of understandable that Coriantumr wouldn't listen to Ether.  C would have seen E as his political rival - probably the rightful king.

And it starts to sound very much like the end of the Nephites.

[zil2]

54 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This shows enormous magnanimity by Moroni.

The pure love of Christ.

[Jamie123]

On 12/25/2023 at 3:52 PM, zil2 said:

v3: Don't the the sort of person who only brings peace to others by dying.

 

[Jamie123]

17 hours ago, zil2 said:

v4: @Jamie123, I've mentioned it before, but here's another example - we believe that all the prophets knew and testified of Christ.

I think most people who really thought about it would agree with that. The promise of the coming Messiah can be found throughout the Old Testament - though of course they could not have called him "Jesus Christ" because that name is Greek. Their equivalent would have been something like "Yeshua Messiah" - which is presumably what the Book of Mormon people would have called him.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

 

Can't decide if I should laugh or cry in reaction to that, but yes.

[Jamie123]

6 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Can't decide if I should laugh or cry in reaction to that, but yes.

Well that was what would have happened if Scrooge hadn't changed his ways - but we all know how the story ends!

[zil2]

Ether 14

v1-2: The slippery curse again (we see more parallels with the end of the Nephites, and since the Lord is repeating it twice, we must assume we will see parallels as the Second Coming approaches).

v27: "fled to the land of Corihor" - perhaps the Cohor and Corihor mentioned in 13 were leaders of groups who had separated themselves from the Jaredites at some point, but were now dragged back in by this all-encompassing war.

Ether 15

These last two chapters of Ether are the goriest part of the book of Mormon, if not so drawn out as "the war chapters".

v1+: It's pretty sad when millions have to die before you consider that maybe you ought to repent.  Don't wait that long - repent now!

v5-7: Apparently his mourning wasn't enough to convince him to give up his own life to save the lives of his people (and apparently, that wouldn't have worked anyway - everyone was too far gone).

What is there to say? It's hard to imagine such hatred and senselessness - and we should be grateful that it's hard for us to imagine it (v19).

v34: Love the Lord so much that the rest doesn't matter, as long as eventually you get to dwell with him again.

Moroni 1

v1, 4: "but I have not as yet perished" - as long as you're alive, try to improve the time you've been given.

v2-3: Even if it costs your life, don't deny Christ (as your eternal life is worth far more than the mortal one).

v4: Plead for the gift of charity.

Moroni 2

Interesting that Moroni decides to document some formalities.

v2: We all should seek to receive this gift.  When acting in the name of the Lord, first pray.

(Deciding to finish these short chapters.)

Moroni 3

Again, pray before acting in the name of Christ.  Teach and believe in repentance, that Christ can remit our since, if we endure to the end with faith in Christ.

v4: God calls people to various areas of service and gives them corresponding gifts.

v4: "ordained them by the power of the Holy Ghost" - we don't really talk about this, in my memory - we talk about priesthood power and authority or the power and authority of God or Christ.  Anyway, this wording suggests that callings, being ordained, being set apart (terms we use in the Church, @Jamie123) are all done after receiving confirmation from God by the Holy Ghost that it's the right thing to do.  Nothing surprising there.  I wonder though, if there isn't more intended here.  Perhaps it's simply the fact that we are meant to have the Spirit with us always and to be guided by him...

Moroni 4

"in remembrance of the body of thy Son" - for the longest time, I think I only ever considered this to mean what Christ endured through the Atonement, but now, I think it is meant for that, and Christ's condescension in taking on a mortal body and living among us, and the fact that he was resurrected (and therefore the body is an important thing, and we will be resurrected, too).  And perhaps all the things Christ did with his body - being baptized, all the ministering and teaching and blessing - things we are to strive to do, following his example.

I sometimes wonder if "they are willing to..." applies to a list (three things), or just the first item in the list.  Whatever the case, these three simple (if not always easy) things are what we need to do to receive that blessing of having the Spirit with us always.

Moroni 5

"in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them" - similarly, I only ever thought of the Atonement (particularly bleeding from every pore in the garden), but now, I think similar things as above, but also, we know that in the resurrection, one has flesh and bone, but not blood - something else exists in place of the blood.  Christ's blood was spilt multiple times and ways during the Atonement, but in the resurrection, every last drop of it was shed (gotten rid of) for us - so that we too can one day be resurrected.

Here, the bar is a little higher - we witness willingness first, but here, we witness that we always remember Christ - not an easy thing to do, and all the more reason to engage daily in those things which remind us of him.

OK, 6 and 7 tomorrow.

[Jamie123]

Such short chapters all of a sudden!

Edited December 28, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

5 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Such short chapters all of a sudden!

Moroni is copying important sections of the Handbook.

[askandanswer]

Given Mormon's description of the state of the people in Mormon, I'm curious about just how many peaceable followers of Christ there were at this time. In Mormon, Mormon gave the impression that everyone was wicked.

Moroni 7:3

 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ,

 

 

How many Nephites were walking peaceably with the children of men at this time?

Moroni 7:4

 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.

 

 

've never understood this and the next few verses. It seems to contrast with verses such as Matthew 7:22. A person can do good works for bad purposes. Does the fact that they did good works then make them a good person? Intent counts for a lot.

 

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not aprophesied in thy name? and in thy bname have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Moroni 7:5

For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

 

 

Portions of this, and related verses, seem to have some similarities with nonsense. It is an almost universal trait of people to alternate, sometimes quite quickly, between states of good and evil and sometimes they can be in two states of mind at once. Is a man who pays 100% tithing and fully lives the word of wisdom but who spends hours looking at online porn good or evil? And if he spends Saturday night looking at porn and then gives a gift of tithing on Sunday morning, is that gift accepted? The same person can be good on Monday and evil on Tuesday and good again on Wednesday and evil again on Thursday. There are also teachings, particularly in Mosiah, that the natural man is an enemy to God. How can an enemy to God do good things? Mormon seems to be painting a picture of people as being wholly good or wholly evil, which is completely untrue. Evil people do good things and good people do evil things all the time.

In the previous verse, Mormon highlights the importance of works, saying that if their works are good, then they are good also, but in this verse he highlights the importance of intent, suggesting that unless the works were done with real intent, it profiteth him nothing. Its not easy to see how both verses could be correct.

Moroni 7:6

For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

 

 

This verse, and the surrounding verses, should be read in conjunction with Matthew 5: 23 - 24, 6:2, Matthew 7:11, Matthew 10:42, and Acts 8: 18 - 24

Moroni 7:7

For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

 

 

ee Acts 5: 1- 5

I'm uncertain as to whether the inherent goodness involved in giving a gift is entirely overcome, or completely nullfied, by any lack of purity motivating the giving of a gift. I'm thinking of the foreign aid programs of many governments that are typically motivated by a variety of benevolent and self-interested purposes. It might even be the case that the church, when deciding how, and how much aid to give in response to a disaster, might be influenced by considerations of what is in the best interests of the church to do.

If a person has a single gift that he is willing to give to one of two people in equal need and he gives it to the one who he believes it is in his best interests to give it to, does that then remove, or lessen, any blessings he might receive for giving that gift, or is he counted evil before God for not giving it to the other person?

1 Samuel 15: 12 - 26 is also relevant.

Moroni 7:8

 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

 

Mormon, who wrote this letter, recorded his personal experience of praying, seemingly with great intent, but with no faith in Mormon 3:12

We see a good example of prayer without intent in Alma 31: 14 - 18.

Moroni 7:9

 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

 

 

Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.

This is a promise from God to receive those who come unto Him with no fine print about intent.

Moroni 7:9

 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

 

 

Again, Matthew 7: 9 - 11 when Christ said that evil people can give good gifts.

Moroni 7:10

Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

 

 

he sweetest waters - a broken heart and a contrite spirit - sometimes come from the most bitter of places - a heart torn by sin and regret. Perhaps one could go so far as to say that it is absolutely essential for a bitter fountain to bring forth good water.

Moroni 7:11

For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water;

 

 

I think what I am reacting against the most here is my impression that Mormon is saying that a person is either good or bad. Its difficult to see how that might be true. We are all, always, both. I suspect that pure evil and pure goodness are both as rare as each other.

Moroni 7:11

For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

 

 

If a person has wandered 5 degrees of the straight and narrow path, he is still closer to God than the devil, but the fact that he has wandered could suggest that to a limited extent he is following both Christ and the devil. If he wanders more than 90 degrees off the path than he is actually going backwards and we could say that he is closer to the devil than to Christ.

Moroni 7:11

For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

 

 

 have always had trouble understanding what this scripture means. I attended Friday services at a mosque a few weeks ago. The people who attended believe in a false concept of God but they do believe in some form of god. Is that evil or good? Islam exhorts its followers to live a virtuous, perhaps even righteous, way of life, but if you tried to attract them to the higher, holier beliefs and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, any such attempt would probably be met with rejection and maybe even hostility. This idea of living a righteous life is common to all major religious and it is a good thing, so according to Mormons' line of thinking, because it is good, it must come from God. But if the effect of these other religions is to hinder people from seeking a higher truth, and to bind people into a false form of worship and keep them from the source of all truth, then that would be a bad thing. If you are worshipping a false form of God, with faith and real intent, is that a good or a bad thing?

 

Moroni 7:12

 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil;

 

 

What would Mormon have thought of the churches described in 4th Nephi 1:26- 27? They seemingly believed in Christ but they had many problems. What is the situation of those organisations which invite and entice to do good continually, such as Alcoholic Anonymous, but which only acknowledge a higher power, and not God. Or Rotary, or the Masons or any such organisation which entices its members to do good, entirely seperate from any religious beliefs? The legal system strives to do good but it will not be influenced by any overtly religious arguments (even though they require witnesses to swear on the bible).

Moroni 7:13

But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

 

 

I think there are many who blame misfortune on God. And the scriptures certainly make clear that a lot of unfortunate events can be directly attributed to God, the great flood being just one example.

Moroni 7:14

Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God

 

 

 

 

[zil2]

28 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Its not easy to see how both verses could be correct.

Perhaps he intended them to be in tandem, the one completing the other - you must do good works with good intent to be good.

32 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.

This is a promise from God to receive those who come unto Him with no fine print about intent.

Are you so sure the following verses aren't the fine print?

34 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I think what I am reacting against the most here is my impression that Mormon is saying that a person is either good or bad. Its difficult to see how that might be true. We are all, always, both.

Perhaps Mormon is not asserting that a person is one or the other, but rather is trying to teach how to become a good person, by telling you the sorts of things a good person does.

38 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

is that a good or a bad thing?

Perhaps the difficulty comes when using human, short-term perception to try to determine whether a thing is good or evil.

IMO, the difficulties you point out are the reason why we must continually study all scripture, not just some of it, and not just some of the time.  The whole collection is needed to paint a clearer picture, and repeated study is needed to gain more and more understanding over time.

[zil2]

Moroni 6

v1: I was baptized at 8 years old.  I remember very little about it.  I remember there was an interview with the bishop, but I only have visuals (he ran a 5-and-dime store and there was a lot to see since the interview was in his office there (we had no church building, but used rented space in a government building).  I remember nothing of what was said.

v2-3: Whenever one was baptized, one should continually show worthiness of that ordinance and covenant through repentance and obedience.  It can be easy to forget that.  The Sacrament is meant to remind us.  It's amazing how two little verses can take a lifetime to master: broken heart, contrite spirit, repentance, taking Christ's name upon yourself, being determined "to serve him to the end".

v4: All that is so that you can have the Holy Ghost guide you.

Don't be the sort of member who doesn't give their contact information to the Church, who never responds to Church leaders and members trying to contact you.  Church membership isn't a mere formality, it's an active thing - names are taken so that we can live our religion, helping each other, asking and being asked for help.  We can't do any of that if we don't know how to contact each other.  Being "kept track of" is part of our Church! (per the end of verse 4, and other scriptures.)

Remember that it is only through Christ's merits that we have any hope at all, so rely on him.

v5-6: Meet together often with your fellow saints!  You need them, and they need you.

v7-8: Encourage others, and be encouraged, to live the gospel, to not give up.

v9: Learn to recognize and follow the Spirit.

(This and preceding chapters read to me like Moroni thinking, "OK, now what all am I going to need to teach this Joseph Smith guy, and how am I going to remember it all?  I'd better just write a few notes for him.")

Holy cow.  I should have done 6 yesterday.  7 is a doozie.  Will post it next.

[zil2]

Moroni 7 (Moroni's recounting of Mormon's teachings to the people of the church)

v2: When you are called, remember who it is that called you.  Be humble and grateful.

v3: If you follow Christ, you will strive to be "peaceable" and obtain hope.  In Mormon's day, this must have defined the followers as there was so much wickedness and violence that only those with a firm hope could have followed Christ.

v5-21: @askandanswer has demonstrated the difficulty of defining and judging what constitutes good and evil.  Mormon's words, "by their works ye shall know them", and using the third person: "a man" and "him" and "he", sure sound like "here's how to tell whether another person is good or evil".  But he goes on to speak about how God will judge the described actions and their motivations.  So perhaps Mormon is instructing people in what to do and not do to be judged righteous by God.

Whatever he intended, we cannot judge another's intent (unless they (or the Spirit) tell(s) it), so when I read these things, I read from the perspective not of how to judge what anyone else is doing (or at least, not to condemn or unrighteously judge), but how to know what I should do.  To that end (in the following, "thing" might be an object, person, event, thought, emotion, behavior, etc.):

• When you do what is right (e.g. offer a gift, pray), do it with "real intent".
• Don't begrudge the gift you intend to give (figure out how to change your heart so that you don't covet your own possessions, so that you can truly be generous).
• Pray with real intent - the only meaning I can think of for this is "pray with the intent to act in harmony with whatever answer God gives you".  This is harder than it sounds.  It requires serious humility.
• Follow Christ.
• If something comes from God, choose to receive it as good (even if you don't like it or don't want to - reject the natural man reaction and force yourself to accept it as good).
• If something comes from Satan, no matter how appealing, reject it as evil.
• If a thing encourages me to do as Christ did (good), or to love and serve God, it's good.  If it discourages me from following Christ, it's bad.
• Rely on the Spirit of Christ (what some call your conscience) to teach good from evil. By choosing good, one's perception of this guidance is ever honed and refined so that what you thought good as a child is no longer good enough as an adult, etc.  I have personally experienced this.  There are things that my younger self thought acceptable that my older self cannot accept - they are not good enough.
• If it encourages me to believe in Christ, it's good.  If it discourages that belief, it's bad.
• If it discourages me from serving God, it's of the devil.  Lots of things discourage me from serving God.  And I think things can flip - if I want to stay home from Sunday meetings, or ministering, or whatever good work so I can go fountain pen shopping, (my attitude and behavior toward) those pens have become evil.  But if I use them to take notes in Church, to write a thank you card, or encouraging letter, now they are helping me to serve God and are good.  If a thing cannot be used to serve God, it may well be something that should be removed from your life.
• Beware of the phrase, "there's nothing wrong with" - if the best you can say about a thing or behavior is that there's nothing wrong with it - if you can't say, "here is what's right / good with" it - then maybe it's not worthy.
• Invite the light of Christ into my life.  Move ever into it, never away from it.  Enhance my tolerance for that light (the natural man hates this light).  Strengthen my ability to be in that light.
• Diligent effort is required to search, by the light of Christ, for what is good or evil - it's not obvious! (v19) We must work for it.  And when we see a good thing, "lay hold upon" it!  (If we don't, we will lose our perception or sensitivity to the light.)
• Faith is required to lay hold upon good things! (v21)

(Remember, in the preceding, "thing" might be an object, person, event, thought, emotion, behavior, etc.)

Judging good and evil is not an on-off switch.  It is a gift and a skill we develop as we search in the light of Christ (hard to search for things in the dark).  As we choose good and reject evil, our ability to distinguish between them will increase and we will increasingly choose better and then best.  (Or worse and worst, I suppose, but don't go that way!)  And while good and bad are in fact absolutes (God and nothing of God), during mortality, the choices for every person are relative to where they are and what they know at that moment.  If you consistently choose the better option before you, you will become better and perceive better options than you previously knew existed until you are righteous.  If you consistently choose the worse option before you, you will become worse and perceive worse options than you previously knew existed until you are downright evil.  Chose the better and best options - seek for them, ask for the ability to discern them.

v21: We're gonna talk about faith now.

v22-23: The foundation of faith is that God knows all, and that "in Christ there should come every good thing", and that God has sent angels and prophets to teach these things.

v24: After the fall, no good thing could come, except for Christ.  IMO, pondering on this could help to define "good" and teach how to discern "good".  At least in part, and perhaps as a beginning: the fall separated us from God.  Christ offers a way for us to return to God.  Thus, that which separates us from God is bad.  That which brings us back to God is good.

Mormon is clearly talking about the ultimate good here.  Not: "cake and ice cream - good, Brussels sprouts - bad" (or vice versa, ), nor "new car - good, broken car - bad", nor "healthy - good, have the flu - bad".  But rather: "separated from God - bad, with God - good".

Thus, we could define our measuring as: does this bring me closer to God or does it keep me separated from God?

v25: We exercise our faith in Christ by living as God has instructed - keeping commandments and covenants.  This is how we "lay hold upon every good thing" - now "good thing" starts to be more specific.

v26: And now we learn what to pray for - that which is good, that which God has spoken, that which will bring us back to God - but we must have faith, believing that we can in fact be brought back to God.

v27: Interesting that it now goes straight to miracles with no apparent transition.  Receiving the things prayed for in v26 is perhaps the miracle addressed in v27.

"...to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men" - The Atonement is what allowed Christ to claim these rights.  The Atonement isn't what helps you and I, Christ is.

v28: Have faith in Christ so that he will claim you as his - and have mercy on you.  If you have faith in Christ, you will "cleave" to good things (that which brings you back to God, which is Christ, his gospel, ordinances, and covenants).

v30: Strengthen your faith and firm your mind.  "in every form of godliness" - in other words, in the covenants of the temple!

v31: The work of angels is to call people to repentance and the work of covenants.  It occurs to me that this includes the covenants we make in the temple - the Father makes promises to us as well as we to him, and angels minister "to do the work of the covenants of the Father".

Bear testimony of Christ!

v32: Share the gospel with "the residue of men", so that they can have faith in Christ!

v33: Faith in Christ gives you power to do Christ's will (not some arbitrary thing, not what you want, what Christ wills).

v35+: If miracles and ministering angels and the Holy Ghost are missing from your life, repent, come unto Christ, and exercise faith in him.

v39: Those with faith in Christ will be meek.

v40+: Faith and hope feed one another.  Faith in Christ, hope for the blessings Christ promises.

v43: Meekness and lowliness of heart required for faith and hope (after all, you're trusting Christ for everything - no room for pride here).

v44+: We need the gift of Charity.  Plead for it (v48), practice it, pursue the virtues it encompasses (v45).  Be a true follower of Christ (v48) or you cannot receive it.

v47: Love Christ with all your heart, and you will receive his love for all others.

[askandanswer]

I wander by whom and how this letter was delivered. I guess that in the circumstances in which Mormon was living and fighting it was entirely possible that he was alive at the time he wrote the letter but dead by the time Moroni read it. 

Moroni 9:1

 My beloved son, I write unto you again that ye may know that I am yet alive;

 

 

These names seem to be substantially different from anything else we have come across in the Book of Mormon.

Moroni 9:2

Archeantus has fallen by the sword, and also Luram and Emron

 

 

Maybe I have nothing to fear from the day of judgement - I can just blame it all on Satan. Such a relief to know  

Moroni 9:3

 And now behold, my son, I fear lest the Lamanites shall destroy this people; for they do not repent, and Satan stirreth them up continually to anger one with another

 

 

Mormon was quite remarkable - a military and a religious leader and devoted father, providing strong but unsuccessful leadership to two important but lost causes. I really think its his statues that should be on top of the temples rather than Moroni's. Moroni just wrapped up the details of his father's work.

Moroni 9:4

Behold, I am laboring with them continually;

 

 

This is not how Mormon described the people in Mormon 6:7-8

And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

Perhaps the difference in the level of fear is related to proximity to death. In Mormon 6:7-8 the people know they are very close to death.

Moroni 9:5

 For so exceedingly do they anger that it seemeth me that they have no fear of death;

 

 

The world today would be a much more populous place if there weren't so many people who had been killed for revenge. It is such a worthless and base motivation. But then, I'm not sure how different revenge is from vengeance, and many of God's doings are said to be motivated by vengeance.

Moroni 9:5

and they thirst after blood and revenge continually.

 

 

Notwithstanding the difficulty of the cause and his lack of success, Mormon continued to work for what he believed in.

Moroni 9:6

 And now, my beloved son, notwithstanding their hardness, let us labor diligently;

 

It would be disappointing and concerning and surprising if avoidance of condemnation was Mormon's primary motivation. And if it wasn't his primary motivation, but he simply referred to this particular motivation because he thought it is the motivation that would have the most impact on his readers, that is also interesting.

Moroni 9:6

let us labor diligently; for if we should cease to labor, we should be brought under condemnation;

 

 

This is something that nobody will be able to do and will never happen until the return of Christ. Nevertheless, the battle must be constant and ongoing. We will all enjoy small victories from time to time but Satan will never be fully vanquished by anybody except Christ.

Moroni 9:6

for we have a labor to perform whilst in this tabernacle of clay, that we may conquer the enemy of all righteousness,

 

 

Despite the breakdown in civil society and the descent into widespread warfare, there seems to have been ways for military leaders to know where each other was and to communicate between themselves.

Moroni 9:7

For according to the knowledge which I have received from Amoron,

 

 

This is the first I remember reading about cannibalism in any of the scriptures.

Moroni 9:8

and they feed the women upon the flesh of their husbands, and the children upon the flesh of their fathers; and no water, save a little, do they give unto them.

 

 

[Jamie123]

30 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This is the first I remember reading about cannibalism in any of the scriptures.

I can't quote chapter and verse, but isn't there something somewhere about people in beseiged cities "feeding upon the fruit of the womb"?

P.S. I found it - Deuteronomy 28:53.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Jamie123