I'm a Christian.

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, Maytoday said:

Yes writing that I realized it was flawed.

I believe the key difference in our logic is you are saying that the bad choices we make would be part of God's creation and therefore under his responsibility, bad choices would be his responsibility. I would say that evil-bad choices-were not created. Only choices, meaning it wouldn't be under his responsibility. Evil is the lack of good.  Cold does not really exist, it is just the absence of heat. In the same way evil is the absence of God. Why should he be responsible for that?

We really are not that different in our beliefs.  The question is where does our will come from?  We both believe that our will is not a product of G-d.  I will put this another way.  Our individual uniqueness is a product of something G-d did not create.  The question is why?  I believe that our uniqueness (will) as an individual has always existed and cannot be created.  In short it was something that existed before G-d’s creation and defines us after.  That G-d created something for that uniqueness to act upon and become a being in the image and likeness of G-d.  Of course, there is a lot more to this than what we have discussed but for the core or our discussion this is important to understand before diving deeper.

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If I know that my sister will steal my money does she not still have the choice to steal or not steal it?

 

I see this statement as somewhat problematic.  To explain, let’s be a little more dramatic.  Instead of using the example of your money let us use someone else's life.  This should make the point a little clearer.  - - -> If you know your sister will kill someone and you do nothing to stop that murder – you are culpable.   Under our law (that I believe on this point your culpability is just) you are an accessory to the crime.

 

It is my belief that there is a divine solution to this – but to get there, I believe we have to understand justice and what it demands.  Again thanks for allowing me to express my concerns and understanding.

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Same for you. This is pretty interesting for me to hear and explore, hope I'm doing alright.

Also, sometimes when I make a quote I accidentally delete the line below and then have to requote...is there a way to add a blank line under a quote?

I can suggest that you copy the text uxing the + sign.  Then you can make several blank lines in your post and put the material copied with the + anywhere you want.  There may be other ways - I am not 100% sure of your question.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 30 by Traveler

[Maytoday]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe that our uniqueness (will)

I don't understand this. Are our character traits(uniqueness), based on our will?  I thought will was like, the amount of self control to resist temptation and such. I feel like we have different definitions of will which is causing confusion.  What does will mean to you?

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

This should make the point a little clearer.  - - -> If you know your sister will kill someone and you do nothing to stop that murder – you are culpable. 

This is a fair point. But in that logic, because God knows that someone will murder yet he doesn't stop it, wouldn't that make him a bad God? 

And well, since he's not a bad God, I don't know what to think of that.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Maytoday said:

I don't understand this. Are our character traits(uniqueness), based on our will?  I thought will was like, the amount of self control to resist temptation and such. I feel like we have different definitions of will which is causing confusion.  What does will mean to you?

To answer the question a best as I understand.  In this mortal existence we have a physical body, but it only belongs to us in this mortal state.  We get our physical body through a process that is completed at our birth - we lose it when we die.  I believe there is something else that defines us – our spirit or ghost.  We do not know much about our spirit, but I believe we can have a sense of it.  It would appear that G-d also has a spirit.  Even scripture speaks of the spirit of G-d.  It is our spirit that contains all our uniqueness and defines us.  I cannot say how much of our spirit are characteristics that are learned or what has always been or existed – I suspect both.  Our will is one spirit characteristic I believe to have always existed.  I speculate that there are other always existed characteristics.  But as the scriptures say – we see such things though a glass darkly.

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This is a fair point. But in that logic, because God knows that someone will murder yet he doesn't stop it, wouldn't that make him a bad God? 

And well, since he's not a bad God, I don't know what to think of that.

I believe you are experiencing a conundrum concerning G-d.  A conundrum that is ignored by most Traditional Christians (and many other religions) that Lucifer exploited to divide the kingdom of heaven that resulted in his (and those angles – a third part – that agreed with him) being exiled from the most advanced and intelligent society to exist, the kingdom of heaven.  To understand this conundrum, we must turn to the scriptures and deal with the symbolism of the Eden epoch – in particular the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – and its fruit.  Also, why a Messiah (Christ) is necessary to redeem sin and not just the individual that committed the sin to meet the demands of justice necessary to resolve sin.

I will likely have difficulty posting for the next 3 weeks – so if there are delays responding – please be patient.

 

The Traveler

[Maytoday]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

But as the scriptures say – we see such things though a glass darkly.

Not really sure what this means...

and as for this:

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe you are experiencing a conundrum concerning G-d.  A conundrum that is ignored by most Traditional Christians (and many other religions) that Lucifer exploited to divide the kingdom of heaven that resulted in his (and those angles – a third part – that agreed with him) being exiled from the most advanced and intelligent society to exist, the kingdom of heaven.  To understand this conundrum, we must turn to the scriptures and deal with the symbolism of the Eden epoch – in particular the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – and its fruit.  Also, why a Messiah (Christ) is necessary to redeem sin and not just the individual that committed the sin to meet the demands of justice necessary to resolve sin.

I technically understand what these words mean but I'm having trouble putting them together in my head so I will mull over this until I can figure it out.

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Maytoday said:

Not really sure what this means...

It was a reference to 1 Cor 13.

[person0]

On 1/14/2024 at 5:35 PM, Maytoday said:

Yes this was the part I was confused about. Most mormons say they are Christians, but everyone else I talked to says they are not. I'm not say who is or isn't right I'm trying to figure that out.

Just to blow your mind a bit, I'm going to spin this a different way for you.

Latter-Day Saints believe that our faith is the true religion of Christ restored to the earth, possessing His priesthood and the authority necessary to organize and govern His Church.

In essence, if put bluntly and taken to the extreme, we are the true Christians and others are in fact, not.  Of course, in actuality, we gladly welcome and acknowledge all who seek to follow Christ as fellow Christians.

I say it like that to demonstrate how easy it is to declare that someone is not what they claim to be.  The truth in any spiritual declaration can only be confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is how you can figure it out.

[person0]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:54 PM, prisonchaplain said:

. . . just because God knows what will happen does not mean that those who partake didn't have free will. They chose what they would do and God's foreknowledge of it does not detract from their willful decision.

Not trying to start an argument, but for the sake of further clarifying the LDS position (as I understand it), we definitely are in full agreement on this; we simply believe that the concept of creation ex nihilo makes the above objectively impossible.

[zil2]

6 hours ago, person0 said:

...stuff on Third Hour...

Very nice to see you back, @person0!

[prisonchaplain]

10 hours ago, person0 said:

Not trying to start an argument, but for the sake of further clarifying the LDS position (as I understand it), we definitely are in full agreement on this; we simply believe that the concept of creation ex nihilo makes the above objectively impossible.

You are, of course, correct about the LDS position on foreknowledge. Further, both of our traditions reject Predestination. Where we disagree, though we understand each other, is on Creation Ex Nihilo. I suspect that many traditional Christians have never even heard of creation out of nothing as a doctrine--we simply accept it as a given. Also, I contend that the doctrine of foreknowledge allows for free will even if creation ex nihilo is true.. Many LDS and others do not. Premortal existence does take away this controversy, but most traditional Christians are not familiar with the teaching and would likely reject it--at least on first hearing.

[Maytoday]

On 1/30/2024 at 4:44 PM, Maytoday said:

I technically understand what these words mean but I'm having trouble putting them together in my head so I will mull over this until I can figure it out.

Follow up:  I believe we are looking at this in different ways...essentially I believe that things are possible that you don't...

I now understand the "conundrum" I had (my teacher is brilliant), but I'm not sure how to explain it, so if you'd like to to ill give it a go but otherwise...well I'm watching studio c right now. Best Show Ever.

On 1/31/2024 at 1:51 AM, person0 said:

we simply believe that the concept of creation ex nihilo makes the above objectively impossible.

Indeed. Meaning it really all comes down to what you are willing to believe.

On 1/31/2024 at 12:40 PM, prisonchaplain said:

Further, both of our traditions reject Predestination. Where we disagree, though we understand each other, is on Creation Ex Nihilo

Out of curiosity @prisonchaplain, which creation idea do you believe in? I don't know about pentecostals.

 

[prisonchaplain]

4 hours ago, Maytoday said:

Out of curiosity @prisonchaplain, which creation idea do you believe in? I don't know about pentecostals.

 

I suspect that most Pentecostals are Young Earth Creationists. We tend the interpret scriptures as mostly literal and mostly historical. However, some of us are a bit more moderate in our understanding. I'm not dogmatic about creation and find that the day-age theory (that the earth could be much older than 6,000 years because "day" in Genesis could mean "age" rather than 24-hours). Still, the closer to literal interpretations  a theory is the more comfortable I am. Theistic Evolution (God designed the earth but it is many billions of years old, and God used the process of evolution to develop it) strikes me as too much of a compromise. Then again, I'm no scientist and could easily be wrong. It would not hurt my faith to find out the theistic evolutionists are correct.

Edited February 6 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

I realize that @Maytoday may have been asking me if I believe in Creation Ex Nihilo. Yes. Without the Latter-day revelations and interpretations, creation out of nothing is almost universally accepted among Christians, Muslims, and Jews. On the other hand, I accept that the thoughts of creation were in the mind of the Creator for eternity. So, in that sense, there is an eternal nature to what is. 

[Maytoday]

I was asking about young earth or day-age theory

[Traveler]

On 1/30/2024 at 3:44 PM, Maytoday said:

Not really sure what this means...

and as for this:

I technically understand what these words mean but I'm having trouble putting them together in my head so I will mull over this until I can figure it out.

Sorry for the delay.  As I engage with Traditional Christians the conundrum concerning G-d that I encounter is that evil (Satan) outsmarts G-d and causes G-d to reconsider all his works (creation highlighted with the creation of man) and create a plan B.  This especially arises in the interpretations of the symbolisms of the Eden epoch.  That Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpent, rebelled against G-d and were forced from Eden and for this crime mankind became fallen.  The conundrum is that G-d and his creation plan failed despite his brilliant intelligence, ability to know the future, His love, compassion and mercy.

I believe that all that transpired was according to G-d plan and that what resulted was exactly and preciously what G-d desired, wanted and intended to happen.  In essence that G-d, because of his brilliant intelligence, love, compassion and mercy – wanted and intended that man (Adam, Eve and all mankind) obtain the knowledge of Good and Evil.  That such knowledge was intended and why G-d created man – to have knowledge of Good and Evil the same as He did.  There was no plan B.  Eden and the fall was His plan from the beginning stated in the opening revelation of Genesis.   It was evil and Satan that was outsmarted and forced into a plan B – Which will likewise fail.

It is evil and Satan that should not be trusted.  The purpose and design of evil will always fail in the light of G-d and his goodness – that never fails, is never surprised nor outsmarted – Ever!!!  We can trust G-d’s plan because it has unfolded exactly as G-d designed it to and exactly as He wanted it to.  There is no conundrum concerning G-d and never has been – only that Satan attempts to deceive – corrupting the truth and confuse the notion that G-d separates that which is light from that which is darkness.  That what was begun in the beginning is ended in the what revelation calls the final judgement.

 

The Traveler

[Maytoday]

No problem for the delay:)

14 hours ago, Traveler said:

The conundrum is that G-d and his creation plan failed despite his brilliant intelligence, ability to know the future, His love, compassion and mercy.

Well in my opinion its not, because it didn't fail. Its essentially his plan which i can explain if you'd like.

 

[Traveler]

18 minutes ago, Maytoday said:

No problem for the delay:)

Well in my opinion its not, because it didn't fail. Its essentially his plan which i can explain if you'd like.

 

We then agree that there was no failure in the plan.  The all the events and outcome was exactly what G-d desired and intended – not the slightest variation from what was needed and had to be.  I would like to hear your version.

 

The Traveler

[Maytoday]

Thinking about it for the past few hours its quite a bit simpler than i had thought.

God wanted to give us free will, because if you force someone to worship you, that would probably not be a good God, so that was his plan...to give us free will...if that makes sense.