The Most Misinterpreted Scripture

[Francine]

We do not know that Jesus hadn't made prior arrangements for his wife and possibly children.

This is perhaps one of the obstacles for me to convert to the CoJCoLDS. I can never believe your doctrine that Jesus was married and had children. This makes for a good movie (The DaVinci Code) but poor theology.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm not aware of it being a requirement for our salvation to believe that - it just logically follows in my opinion, in the same way that we cannot have a Heavenly Father without having a Heavenly Mother.

[Francine]

I'm not aware of it being a requirement for our salvation to believe that - it just logically follows in my opinion, in the same way that we cannot have a Heavenly Father without having a Heavenly Mother.

The Heavenly Mother doctrine must be Advanced Mormonism. I have only read the KJV and the BoM.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It features in one of our hymns - "Oh My Father"

[Francine]

It features in one of our hymns - "Oh My Father"

I have encountered difficulties from LDS members on another forum for questioning doctrines that do not appear in the KJV Bible, or the Book of Mormon, or Doctrine & Covenants, or the Pearl of Great Price. So if this doctrine only appears in a hymnal I cannot comment.

[Iggy]

I have encountered difficulties from LDS members on another forum for questioning doctrines that do not appear in the KJV Bible, or the Book of Mormon, or Doctrine & Covenants, or the Pearl of Great Price. So if this doctrine only appears in a hymnal I cannot comment.

Francine, Willow NEVER said it was doctrine. She said In Her Opinion. At times you sound like an internet Bot.

I asked you earlier why Jesus was baptised, would you please answer me.

Prison Chaplain, I asked the same of you. Why did Jesus get baptised?

[prisonchaplain]

Iggy, I answered you in post 22. Here it is again:

To fulfill all righteousness. He also showed his commitment to his father and to the kingdom.

To identify himself with sinners. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Jesus showed us the correctness of John’s baptism of repentance.

[Iggy]

Yeee Gads PC, is there a reason you made the font so big?? when I click on the little box in front of a topic it is supposed to take me to the first unread post - well that feature is not working for me, that is why I missed your answers - sorry. But it really isn't necessary to answer in such huge letters?

So you both admit that He did so in compliance with His law? The same could be said about marriage. Father, thus Christ has said that to attain the highest level in His kingdom we must be married and sealed for all eternity.

[prisonchaplain]

So you both admit that He did so in compliance with His law? The same could be said about marriage. Father, thus Christ has said that to attain the highest level in His kingdom we must be married and sealed for all eternity.

Sorry for the big letters--I cut and paste from a talk I did, and used large letters so it would be easy for us to read. I was not trying to be cute, by making sure you didn't miss them this time--I used the same size in #22.

Two responses to your point about the law and the third heaven.

1. Obviously Protestants and Catholics are not yet convinced that the revelations Joseph Smith reported are Law.

2. Most LDS I've met are not willing to say that Jesus had to be married. Some even agree that he was not. It does seem that if he was married to set an example, the whole matter would have been more clearly recorded.

[CrimsonKairos]

Its not as if Christ was faced with the choice of either being married during mortality or not at all.

Christ could have taken an eternal companion after his resurrection.

The most compelling point has been highlighted by PC, I think. If Christ was married to demonstrate the value and propriety of marriage, it would be explicitly portrayed in the New Testament, not to mention the D&C.

[Francine]

Francine, Willow NEVER said it was doctrine. She said In Her Opinion. At times you sound like an internet Bot. I asked you earlier why Jesus was baptised, would you please answer me.

I did reply, but that is the last reply you will get from me, because you think I am an internet bot.

[WillowTheWhisp]

When you consider that 18 years of Jesus' life from the age of 12 when he went to the temple in Jerusalem to the age of 30 when he began his ministry is simply not covered at all in the Bible there may well be an awful lot of things he did that we have not idea of - yet. I don't think he sat there twiddling his thumbs for 18 years, but that is just my personal opinion.

[prisonchaplain]

Help me understand how it can be okay for God the Son (even as a separate personage from the Father) to marry and be intimate with one of us?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Easy when you believe, as I do, that he is one of us. He is our older brother. We are all children of the same Heavenly Father. We're not a different species.

[prisonchaplain]

Willow, are we all then co-eternal with the Father in the same way Jesus is? If so, why is He already God, and we aren't? Why do we worship Jesus, if He is one of us--our older brother? How can He be older, if we are all eternal?

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't think he sat there twiddling his thumbs for 18 years

Twiddling thumbs can greatly aid meditation, though.

Willow, are we all then co-eternal with the Father in the same way Jesus is?

We believe so, PC, yes. Remember our discussion awhile ago about how LDS doctrine is that our "intelligences" (as the D&C and Book of Abraham call them), or our self-aware little "I am," was not created or made, and can't be?

If that is the case, then God didn't create us from scratch as much of Christianity believes. God--through some process which hasn't been revealed yet--created our spiritual bodies and joined our "intelligences" with our spirit bodies, in much the same fashion that our spirits are joined to our physical bodies during mortal birth. So He literally is our Father in Heaven, not in some figurative or metaphorical sense.

If so, why is He already God, and we aren't? Why do we worship Jesus, if He is one of us--our older brother? How can He be older, if we are all eternal?

Because the LDS doctrine is that Jesus was the Firstborn spirit child of God the Father. In other words, we believe Jesus was the first "intelligence" or "I AM" to be joined with a spirit body created for him by God the Father. Hence, Jesus had his spiritual "birth" before any of us who came after, and he is therefore our older brother in terms of spiritual "births."

Now we also believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. Christ's mortal body possessed 46 chromosomes like ours do: 23 came from Mary and 23 came from God the Father.

Hence, I refer to Jesus as the Wholly Begotten Son of God (spiritually and physically descended from God the Father).

Now all this being true, and Jesus being co-eternal in terms of the self-aware part of his consciousness having not been created or made, then it is no more inappropriate for Jesus to marry one of his spirit "siblings" then it is for any of us mortals here to marry one who spiritually is our "sibling."

I know you might not believe that, but does that make sense?

[prisonchaplain]

Crimson, it can. However, I'm wondering what it means that we have an eternal intelligence, then. Prior to our being joined with a spirit body, were we not self aware? And if not, what does it mean to be an intelligence?

[CrimsonKairos]

Prior to our being joined with a spirit body, were we not self aware? And if not, what does it mean to be an intelligence?

I believe we were self-aware before our spirit "birth."

Here is a relevant passage from the Doctrine and Covenants:

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father;

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:21, 23, 29)

From the Pearl of Great Price we have this interesting tidbit from the Book of Abraham:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (Abraham 3:22-23)

Beyond those statements, we quickly slide into conjecture and personal opinion. This statement from Joseph Smith during his King Follett Discourse (given at the funeral of a latter-day saint) is notable. Be aware that when Joseph Smith says God has not power to create the spirit of man, he is talking about the eternal part of man (he uses the term the "mind of man" to clarify). Joseph Smith is not talking about our spirit bodies when he says that man is spirit (the "mind of man") and is eternal:

The mind of man is as immortal as God himself...Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet has a beginning? Because if a spirit has a beginning, it will have an end...I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal spirit, because it has no beginning. Suppose I cut it in two; as the Lord lives, because it has a beginning, it would have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning prove that he must have an end. If that were so, the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself--that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary to save the world of spirits..

Now I'm sure you're aware of my almost Pharisaic zeal that official LDS doctrine can only be decided with 100% authority through an appeal to the LDS canon. Hence, as this sermon is not in the canon I don't say with 100% authority that it is LDS doctrine. The prophet's words here, however, seem to agree with the LDS canon's teachings and hence I feel confident in reproducing it for you.

[prisonchaplain]

Crimson, I accept your caveat, but thank you for the resources--mostly canon. If I'm understanding, we're all eternal, but God was greater than the rest of us. If so, Jesus, part of the Godhead, was also greater than us. And yet, we are the same species. If so, I can see the logic in it.

[CrimsonKairos]

I think you understand what I'm saying.

For the sake of our discussion, assuming that the foregoing teachings are true, the thing that interests me is that Jesus is the only spirit child of God the Father who obeyed Him perfectly from "day one" i.e. his spirit "birth" or uniting of his "intelligence" with his spirit body.

Hence Jesus has preeminence among all of God's children by virtue of his...well...virtue. With this framework of eternal intelligences and spirit births and whatnot before us, I think the LDS doctrine of "deification" or "exaltation" makes a bit more sense. I believe I will always be subject to my Heavenly Father's authority and rulership; He will always be the God I worship; He will always be the source of my blessings, none of which I do nor can deserve.

So while I believe that through Christ's atonement and by God's grace and with personal repentance it is possible for me to inherit a fulness of what my Father possesses, I will never be "equal" to Him in authority inasmuch as I will always be His child and under His stewardship and submissive to His will.

But I do believe I can sit down with Christ in his throne as Christ sat down with the Father in His throne, and in so doing, I believe I can literally fulfill the command: "Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven."

Also, I ran across this scripture during my morning Bible study and I think it pertains to our discussion somewhat...plus I just really love it:

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. (Psalm 17:15)

I believe his talk of "awaking" refers to the resurrection, and hopefully we will--as Paul said--be caught up to meet Christ and be like him, or have his "likeness" in us. :)

[WillowTheWhisp]

I see it in the same way as a human earthly family. A boy grows up to be an adult but he is still his father's son and people still refer to their adult offspring as their children even though they may be equal to them in education and intelligence and occupation etc. The son can still look up to his father.

[rameumptom]

For me, the idea of how Intelligence works was taught by Orson Pratt and expounded upon more by Blake Ostler in "Exploring Mormon Thought, vol 1).

All spirit is matter. Intelligence is light and truth. Abraham 3 tells us that God stood in the midst of the "organized intelligences." What is an "unorganized" intelligence?

Think of it this way: particles of matter exist. God gathers particles together and forms them into a higher organization of intelligence. One has atoms that have intelligence: capabilities that are inherent to that atom. When certain atoms are put together, one gets a higher intelligence called a molecule. It retains the former while obtaining new abilities.

For example, Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms have certain weights and capabilities. Combine them into water molecules, and a new capability or intelligence is created. Whether this lower level of intelligence is "self-aware" or not, I do not know.

We do know that once we've been formed as spirits, we do have self-awareness, as the matter/intelligence organized to the level of spirit does denote self-awareness. Then, once we had matured as spirits, we were ready to be formed to a higher level of intelligence/organization: with a physical body. As far as we know, the final reorganization will be with the resurrection, when spirit and body elements are forged together eternally into one bond that cannot be separated.

[CrimsonKairos]

Its definitely interesting to speculate about. I look forward to learning all the details from the Lord someday.

[USNationalist]

That is a misinterpreted verse. It is ridiculous to apply it to a bible that was not even canonized at the time. It is especially funny to see protestants try to use the verse to condemn the mormon church. I guess they forgot about the books Martin Luther removed during the reformation.

[rameumptom]

That is a misinterpreted verse. It is ridiculous to apply it to a bible that was not even canonized at the time. It is especially funny to see protestants try to use the verse to condemn the mormon church. I guess they forgot about the books Martin Luther removed during the reformation.

Could you be more specific on which verse quoted is misintepreted? Unless you quote the previous message you allude to, there's no telling what you were thinking here.