Here are some questions I would like to pose…


Proposing
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If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

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If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

Okay, these are the only two I feel qualified to answer and the answer is the same.... We are Christians because we are followers of Christ. Simple, wasn't it?! :)

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Hi Proposing,

I can't really comment on your eternal progression questions, because it makes my head hurt, and at the end of the day, any answer I could give would just be my best guess. We just don't know.

But I did want to comment on the rest of your post:

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God.

The answer to your question is no - Muslims can't (and don't) claim to be Christian. A Christian is one who accepts Christ as savior and redeemer - muslims do not do this. As you mentioned, Islam rejects the divinity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sake, preferring to look on Him as a prophet only.

They too believe in salvation through works.

I don't know what muslims believe about salvation through works. But if you're implying that Mormons believe we're saved through our works, you are incorrect. I've been taught, ever since I was a teeny tiny little mormon boy, that the only way to be saved is to accept Christ as savior. Yes, we believe that God gave us commandments, and we're supposed to keep them. But yes, as we all fall short, as none measure up, we all require Christ to take our sins from us, because we can't do it by ourself. The New Testament is big on "repent and be baptized" and "keep my commandments" - and we Mormons listen.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine?

What is the definition of "Christian"? Is it not "Someone who follows Christ"? I follow Christ. Therefore, I'm a Christian. I don't deny the Christianity of people who subscribe to the trinitarian belief, please don't deny me my Christianity because I believe in a Godhead.

Thank you for your responses.

Hope this helps.

LM

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If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

God is intelligence, he is intelligent enough to make all thngs subject unto himself. Inelligence is learned, and it has to be learned from somewhere. If you take a look at alot of the "theories" peopel have about the universe and humans, like the Big Bang Theory, and the theory of evolution; who knows if Eons ago, a being had evolved into a perfected being full of light and truth, and from there learned how to control things? and then from there, the progression keeps going, a continuation of seeds forever and ever.

Science and LDS theology works in harmony if you know where to look. Matter is eternal. it is impossible to destroy matter, you can only change its form. The smallest known particles are quarks and leptons, and those do not disappear, they decay into smaller particles that we are unable to detect.

From LDS scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants 131:

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

God is eternal because matter, energy, intelligence, and truth are all eternal.

Our Heavenly Father is not a "lesser God" He is seated at the right hand of his father and so forth. He is our Father in heaven. He is crowned with the same glory of his father, and his father's father.

As for the muslim thing. No, they are not christians, because of thedefinition of Christ according to Christians. Christ is more than "just a prophet" to us.

Muslims follow the same line of information as we do from the patriarch Abraham. Except we do not accept mohammed as a prophet.

Main stream christianity doesn't believe the heavens are open, they thinkt heya re closed and that there can be no more revelation, and no more prophets. But us LDS know for a fact that this is false, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and to prove it God gave him the keys of prophecy and revelation, and gave unto him the Book of Mormon as a Second witness unto the divinity of Jesus Christ. Restored the priesthood which was taken from the earth.

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If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

It would imply that, if you were limiting your reasoning and thought to the manifest universe/multiverse. I'm not sure God is so limited. Practical answer: I dunno.

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

Your assumptions make no sense when applied to a God in the Judeo/Christian sense. Perhaps you are referring to a demi-god, and if so, pls direct your question to some believer in demi-gods (Hindu, perhaps?).

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

Who believes god is only the god of this world? Certainly not Mormons.

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

Yup. You see, it makes no sense. That's good because Mormons don't believe what you have been saying. Who led you (in error) to believe such things? I'd question everything else they've been telling you, were I you!

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

Mormons believe God was God from eternity, and into the eternities. Somebody really messed you up!

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

Nope. I'm going to stop now, 'cause all this is just nuts. You totally need to learn what Mormons believe. All this stuff you've been talking about is garbage.

Thank you for your responses.

You're welcome!

HiJolly

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God is intelligence, he is intelligent enough to make all thngs subject unto himself. Inelligence is learned, and it has to be learned from somewhere.

Just one point, Stampede. According to JS, Intelligence is eternal and co-equal with God. I don't know how it could be considered 'learned'.

HiJolly

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If the creedal God can be without beginning why can't the progession of God's be without beginning? And if the creedal God found his urge to be a God why couldn't the first exalted God?

Joseph Smith felt God the Father n one was subordinate to an original God, but became so perfect he was allowed to become an independent exclusive God himself.

Joseph Smith actually felt God's personality was uncreated. He did speculate in one of his sermon's spirit's were created. It would have been better if he suggested that the person within the spirit body later created was uncreated. But he accepted Psalm 90:2 very literaly. At some point he felt the Father like the 2nd person of the Godhead, or Trinity if you prefer took upon himself mortality. That the Father went through a birth, death and resurrection process.

The world's that will be inhabited by God's are not world's that existed before only the all thing's Jesus created. The god's that will inhabit those world's will either be forever subodinate to God, or have to find a place outside all thing's that God own's including the world's.

It is my understanding Jesus is figuratively one with the exclusive God, and is kind of like a spiritual medium in a saiance at time's. So he speak's misleadingly as if God were a singular being as in Isa.43:10. But honestly they are aware of each other which make's them two modern person's. I just confess to the contradiction between the three and their misleading claim to being one God i see no way to explain it.

We don't know that other worlds are lifeless. It's only been within the last twenty year's that we even developed the technology to find the 200+ planets we have. And even then we are dealing with gas giants like Jupiter. We can't travel to look up close and see. Plus i think it's the next decade that they are launching a specific program to look for earth like planet's. They recognize that the planet finding technology isn't enough to find earth like planets let alone advanced enough to find ET.

Maybe UFO's have crashed on earth and the government keep's the wreckage locked up.

Islam does not think Jesus was anything more than a great man or teacher. Ephesian's 2:8-10 has been misread by Evangelical's. It merely say's man is not saved by mere acts of human effort. Some of those works are works we have to do upon pain of damnation if we don't do them. Jame's 2:10 reaffirm's God will hold man not saved by grace after all they can do will be held guilty for act's of breaking law. Evangelicalism depated from early Christianity when they rejected grace plus obedience. This used to be common orthodoxy before Martin Luther said it wasn't. If being heretic's that creates a new version of the church makes one a non-Christian Evangelicals are not Christian.

I use a broader definition of Christian. I consider Evangelicals Christian although i think them wrong.

By the way i don't see baptism as acts of human effort, but yielding ouselve's to God allowing him to work in us by his grace. (1 Corr. 15:10)

The creedal writer's in order to confess the idea of the three of God did not wander close to the idea of God's adopted a misleading word. Instead of confessing the three were like three men person's they said the three were mere role's of God. They employed the latin word persona to suggest the person's of God were no more person's than the person an actor played via his face masks in a play.

The person's of an actor in a play can't talk to each other as the Father can with his Son. The ability of the three to be aware of each other wanders the New Testament idea of God close to poly-theism. Orthodox Jews and Moslem critic's of the Trinity are right into seeing the Trinity idea as poly-theistic. Only by saying the person's of God are as dumb as the person's of an actor can you deny the person's are defineable as being like three modern person's.

Isa.43:10 without the latin word persona presents as much problem for the idea of God's as much as it does the idea of the three and one God. If the word lie's when it say's the person's are mere role's of God we only have one definition of person's. The only word i know of dealing with three person's is associated with three human person's. Without that ancient word credal writer's had no defense against the Jewish and Moslem charge the Trinity was a mix of mono-theistic and poly-theistic idea's.

I am actually a member of the Community of Christ (Formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). We don't feel God was ever a man. Officially my denomination teache's the Trinity. The Southern Baptist misrepresnted our belief statement, and thought we wre modalists. If they had the book Exploring the Faith which explained the belief statement they would have found the creedal idea of God. But not being a creedal church we have had Anti-Trinitarian's also. Those who rejected the Trinity to avoid wandering into tri-theism denied the Deity of Jesus. I see no way to deny the Deity of Jesus, and since i feel the persona word is untrue i see Jesus as to disinct from God, and close enough to be called a God among three God's.

My answer's are how i would answer your questions if i were LDS. Plus i doubt the truth of the Trinity.

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  • 3 weeks later...

If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

Rameumptom: We have very little knowledge revealed about the progression (not procession) of gods. Whether there is an initial God or not is something that has not been revealed, and therefore falls into speculation. However, it is not any more difficult of a concept than imagining a God that always has been: how did he ever get started?

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

Rameumptom: No, because we are told that God shares all that he has with those that receive of His fullness. In a Godhead relationship, all things are shared equally and fully, so if one is all powerful, all of them share that power.

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

Rameumptom: We believe that God is the God of all his creations. Moses 1 tells us that God has many creations on-going, and could only allow Moses to see this earth, as to see all his creations would have placed Moses in all his glory,and he could not have withstood it. Life on other planets is difficult, because they are so very distant. Only in the last 10 years have we actually found evidence of planets in other solar systems/galaxies, and most of that evidence is indirect (gravitational pull on stars, etc). Chances are that the life on other planets is either too far away or is not developed enough to contact us. Or have they? (silly bow to the UFOlogists out there).

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

Rameumptom: The question is whether other Gods create things within our universe or in other universes. Or perhaps they create so far away in this universe that those stars were invisible to the early Biblical writers. We have to realize that the Biblical writers were writing from their world view - which is why we see statements like "4 corners of the earth", based upon their belief in a flat earth. Not everything written was based upon God's knowledge, but on knowledge given to the early prophets and then interpreted according to what they knew at that time.

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

Rameumptom: Define the term "eternal." As far as we are concerned, God has been around a lot longer than we have, and can seem like an eternity. For ancient people with a finite understanding of numbers, 1 billion could have been eternal. Therein lies the rub in trying to fit ancient beliefs into our modern vernacular - sometimes we read things differently than they did. (Also, see my comment on the 4 corners of the earth).

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

Rameumptom: Mormons claim Jesus as their savior and redeemer. Muslims do not. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God, and nothing more. The key is how far does one extend the definition of Christian? Mormons believe in salvation by grace, and exaltation by faith and works combined. Those who make it into the lowest levels of heaven are saved by grace (including murderers and adulterers), not because they were good or obedient. We cannot resurrect nor save ourselves. What we can do is become like Jesus, and in so doing, become willing and able to receive a higher kingdom of glory. For those who are not like Jesus, they will find it is not comfortable for them to dwell in His presence, and will prefer a lesser kingdom of heaven to enjoy.

Muslims believe one is saved entirely by obedience to the pillars of Islam. Jesus was not a Savior, but only a prophet. Given that the New Testament states we must believe on Jesus' name to be saved, we then have to decide just how much we must believe to receive that salvation.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Rameumptom: How can Protestants say they are Christian, when they broke away as heretics from the Roman Catholic church? Whose job is it to determine who is and isn't a Christian? Either we are all saved by believing in the name of Jesus, or we aren't. Now, if you were to ask me if I were a traditional Trinitarian Christian, I'd agree that I am not. It isn't the same as calling yourself the President, because that position has requirements that you clearly have not met. To be a Christian requires faith on Jesus as Savior and Redeemer - Mormons meet that criteria. Do we make the requirements based on the Bible or on Christian creeds that are non-Biblical? If we go by the creeds, then whose creeds do we use? If we follow a strict Trinitarian creedal requirement, then most Christians would fail, as most believe in modalism, not Trinitarianism. Modalism was considered heretical by St Augustine, by the way. If we use the TULIP creed, then most Christians fail, because most do not believe in predestination, but rather free will.

If we go by the Bible, then anyone believing in Christ's atonement IS a Christian. From there, we can then discuss how good/bad a Christian is. But that is a discussion of quality, not of inclusion/exclusion. I can consider a person to not be a great Christian for believing in slavery, abortion, homosexual acts, etc. But they are still a Christian.

And as a Latter-day Saint, I am a Christian.

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If god is god through procession (he is god because he served

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

To paraphrase CS Lewis in the Narnia books it is for each of us to only know their own story, we know what Heavenly Father feels it is pertinent for us to gain some understand of the world about us and to return home to Him I have views on your other questions but they are just my views - personally I believe its perfectly possible for a Hindu or Muslim to know and follow Christ whilst calling him another name after all its unlikely the Disciples would have called him Jesus cultures use the form or sound that is most appropriate for them. And anyone can call themselves Christian its not for me or anyone else to say after all only Christ really knows who is a true follower of Christ. Personally I would never say I was Christian but I know it means a lot to other LDS.

-Charley

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Proposing:

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

No. There's a major difference. Muslims do not view Jesus as their Savior, nor as God. They do not worship Jesus, but honor him as a prophet inferior to Mohammed. We believe Jesus is our God and Savior. We believe that salvation comes through the atonement of Christ, and that keeping the commandments is needed to determine the level of salvation we obtain. Those issues are very different than Islam teaches, where Jesus is not required for salvation - Mohammed and the Islamic rites (prayer, the Haj, etc) are required.

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Proposing :

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Why are Protestants Christian, when they've broken off from the Roman Catholics? There are differences in doctrine, but we all believe and profess in Christ as Savior. That should be sufficient to be considered a Christian.

Now, we can discuss differences in doctrine. Are LDS members Trinitarians? No. Are they traditional Christians, no. Suddenly, we have used additional terms to limit who is/isn't a member. But the term "Christian" must apply to any and all that embrace Christ as Savior (that does not include Muslims, who only see him as a prophet and nothing more).

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Last night on tv, I watched the old movie, Hawaii, with Max Von Sydow and Julie Andrews. Von Sydow is attempting to Christianize Hawaii. He comes from a strict order of Christianity, and the council of elders are quick to excommunicate anyone and everyone.

The queen actually wished to be baptized, but Von Sydow refuses, as she is married to her brother, King Kamehameha. He tells her that they must be separated, or she will burn in hell. She finally does it on her death bed, but her son and many others fall away from Christianity, because Von Sydow preaches a jealous and vengeful God.

At one point, a child born deformed is drowned by the Hawaiians. Julie Andrews accosts her husband, Von Sydow for not saving the child. He mourns that the child was not baptized before being drowned, and Andrews emphasizes that he could have saved the child's life. Instead, while the child was being drowned, he was preaching to the natives of how the deformed child was a sign from God that they were being evil.

Over time, several events soften Von Sydow's heart, especially a measles epidemic, and the death of his own wife. He learns to love the people and teach Christ's forgiveness and grace. Still, the rest of the elders remain staunch in their angry God ideals, believing that God has allowed them to humble the natives by taking their lands for sugar crops, and working the people to death.

Unfortunately, this is the background for much of Protestantism. While many of their churches now preach a gentler and kinder God, there still is a background of who fits and who doesn't fit the preacher's view of what makes a person a Christian.

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The fact is we can't fully understand these things, we as human beings cannot understand eternity. That is the major flaw with your questions.

Whats important is that there are many god and many lords, but we worship only one, and that is our heavenly father. no one else is important concerning our salvation and growth in this mortal life. We believe we are all spirit children of our father, and that he too was at some distant time one himself. Thats the only thing we can say about it. Everything else is logical guessing.

In the scriptures we are told that the purpose of this life to learn to become one with our father in heaven, as Jesus was with him. We become joint heirs with Christ. So, although there are many gods, they are one God, because they are one in purpose. That purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Our Heavenly father is mentioned as the God of gods, he created through his son Jesus Christ many worlds.

thats all I have for the subject.

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If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

In answer to the first two paragraphs, we must appeal to scriptures that Latter Day Saints hold sacred just as the Bible. If you have access to the Perl of Great Price, please read Moses 1:30-40. In these scriptures, you will notice that God's creations are numberless to man but numbered to him. In other words, God's creations are not infinite in the mathematical sense. They are, however, numberless to man...even computerized man! (see Neal A. Maxwell "O Divine Redeemer" November Ensign 1981)

As for life on other worlds, in our Doctrine & Covenants we read "That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God". The reference to "him" is referring to Jesus Christ who we believe created the universe under the direction of God, the Father. We know from the aforementioned scripture that there IS life on other worlds. The scientific community with its current technology will not fully substantiate this fact. The current state of the art in physics and astronomy is trying to prove that there are other planets that "could" have life sustaining properties. They have found a few as potential candidates but they are a far cry from "proving" that life exists on these worlds. Even if we were able to see or detect that life exists on other worlds, the images or detections we would get are really relics of a distant past and have nothing to do with our present time since it takes light or any other form of electromagnetic radiation hundreds or even thousands of years to reach the earth! That creates another host of problems and questions. The best science could hope for is to conclude that life "did" exist on a world a long time ago, far, far, away. For the time being, we will have to have faith and go off what the Lord says in modern day scriptures that life has existed and does now exist on other worlds.

As for your last question, this is a good one and one that has perplexed many and caused much confusion. The usage of the word "eternal" is synonymous with the term "God". In other words, eternal life is God's life or the kind of life that God lives. Endless and eternal are synonymous as well. The word "God" as used in the scriptures is also used as a title and in many instances is not referencing a single individual. When we hear that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one "God", it does not mean that they are one and the same in substance. It means rather that they are one in purpose and presidency and that they hold the same office or title as members of the Godhead.

As Latter Day Saints, we do believe that God the Father was once as we are now and is an exalted man who now dwells in yonder heavens. So how do we resolve this idea with what is taught in the Bible that God is "eternal" or has existed forever? There are a couple ways to look at this. The first way to think of this is that when God came to be God, he "spiritually" created you and I and that was the beginning of us in eternity. In other words, when the scriptures speak of eternity, they speak of eternity on our own understanding. In this context, God is eternal from our point of view. A more complex view of resolution on this subject involves the doctrine of the eternal nature of intelligence as viewed by Latter Day Saints. God's intelligence (just as man's intelligence) has existed forever and there is no creation about it (see D&C 93:29-30). In this sense, God as an entity of intelligence has always existed forever, albeit in different states of progression. In fact, man is co-eternal with God himself when viewed in this light (no pun intended)! I believe these two explanations adequately resolve the apparent conflict.

I hope this hasn't muddied the waters too terribly. Hopefully it will give a further desire for thought on the subject...:)

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while the entirety of God and his creations are beyond our comprehension at this time, we do believe we can comprehend many things right now. We also believe that the day will come when we will comprehend God perfectly. I'm not sure how that would apply in a Trinitarian belief, where God is unknowable and incomprehensible, primarily because he is of a different substance than we are or will be in the eternities.

I can comprehend what it is to be a child or parent, though on a smaller scale than God does in LDS theology. It isn't a matter of different, but more of a matter of scale between the things I create and the things he creates, of the children I raise and the children he raises, of the challenges I face and the challenges he faces, of the truths I know and the truths he knows.

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How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

What I do when I want to find out the meaning of a word, say for example, "Christian". I would not try to ask for a consensus, but rather go to the dictionary and seek the primary definition of the word Christian. I urge you to try this method. Skip the other checklists for they are ultimately meaningless.

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If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

OK, Every heard the song by W.W. Phelps, "If You Could Kie to Kolob" ? Thats the beauty of eternity. There is no beginning and there is no end. Think about it... how can something(or someone) have a beginning(or birth or start), if the wasnt something there to initiate(or create)? So I think youre reasoning that this iterative God who became God implies that there is an ultimate God is faulty. The only way you can get exalted is to have an exulted Being exault you. Sorta like your in quicksand and the only way to get out is to have someone pull you out who is on firm ground.

answer to 2nd question: God's glory derives from His children ("This is my work and my gloy, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39)). God's Father's glory is more than God's insofar as God's Father has more exalted posterity(including God). It doesn't mean He is more intellegent(more-all knowing, more all-seeing) though. It is my understanding that once you reach Godhood, you only progress insofar as your posterity does(i.e. more glory is added to you as your posterity gets exaulted).

answer to question 3: Read Moses. THere are billions and billions of worlds out there. Enough for everybody:) Some are lifeless some aren't. The closest star to us is 4 light years away. We can't travel nearly the speed of life yet, so it would take lifetimes to get to that star and its(if it even has one) planetary system. Assuming that one planet in that system is inhabited, why would we know about it when we have only begun to send rockets and probes out? (I think I remember hearing that one of our earlier probes had just passed Pluto, or was it Jupiter?)

answer to question 4: Again there are billions and billions of stars our there... enough for everybody....

answer to qustion 5: This one may be harder to fathom. (And this is only my guess) Mortality is a trial period, a set up, an imitation or reality(eternity). You come to earth learn a ton, experience a body, learn to used the body well, do good, learn to love, progress, progress, progress. You have a Savior who can (and does) exalt you, if youve live up to the requirements of recieving the Atonement. You return to real life(eternity). Now God saids, "Well done though good and faithful servant..." You now are exalted to Godhood. And because your in real life(eternity), you become a God from eternity to eternity... (again this is my own thoughts)

answer to question 5: It's been answered previously. Whomsoever has faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and follows His commandments may call himself a Christian.

answer to question 6: same as 5. Anyone who learns from the Master and follows Him is his disciple and can call himself a Christian. The only opinion that matters is Christ's. If He will call me a Christian, thats good enough for me.

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Here is another thought: Why not ask what an Orthodox Christian is? An Orthodox Christian you might say is one who follows the Creeds. And yet, what if all these Christian Sects define the meaning of the words within the Creeds differently. Would the not they have to share similar meanings for words such as One, Holy, Catholic/Universal, and Apostolic for them to truly be Orthodox?

Yet these Sects do have different meanings. So what is a ravening Christian who wants to sock it to the Mormons regarding their unorthodoxy to do? Or is it even necessary to do anything other than the ravening? Is there anyway they themself could assure that they are Standardized? Is there a brand label or seal that could be attached and if so, should Mormons first look for this label before they respond?

So many questions....

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Moksha, you make a very good point. Just a few centuries ago, the Roman Catholics were burning Protestants to death at the stake, and Calvin and other Protestants were burning Roman Catholics at the stake. Even more recently, we've seen Irish Protestants and Catholics bombing one another in Northern Ireland. Not really a "Christian" thing to be doing, eh? Christ, after all, taught about "turning the other cheek." I'm just not convinced that we (humans) are ready to really be "Christians" in the sense that Jesus taught.

He sought unity amongst his disciples. He taught them charity, Christ-like love, forgiveness, faith, hope, etc. It seems like most Christians (including many LDS Christians) are busier with condemning the other guy to hell, than expressing a Christian love and serving. The mortal Jesus' key sermons are the Sermon on the Mount and at the Sea - which teach us his key principles. They do not teach us to persecute, but rather "blessed is he that IS persecuted for my sake." Concepts such as mercy, poor in spirit, pure in heart, peacemaker, are all part and parcel of what we must become. We are to be a light on the hill and salt with savor. We are to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the poor and visit those in prison (when was the last time anyone visited a stranger in prison - I work in one, so I do it daily!) - and in so doing when we do it unto the least of these, we have done it unto Christ.

How does telling a Mormon he is loved, but will burn in hell with Joseph Smith if he doesn't repent, complying with Jesus' teachings? What value does regular Christianity offer me, besides animosity and rancorous lies toward something I consider special and of good report, such as the Book of Mormon?

I reviewed a book a couple years ago for a guy that asked me to do so. It purported to bridge traditional Christianity and Mormonism. It started nice, then told his conversion away from Mormonism to traditional Christianity. Then it tried to "nicely" tell the LDS reader they could become decent Christians if they just changed a few things: reject the Book of Mormon, reject Joseph Smith, and tell their Church leaders they wanted their name removed from the Church records! Sad thing is, he didn't really see that his whole book was an attack. Instead of saying, "these are wondrous things I have found and want to share them with you...", his book was "these are the things that are wrong with Mormonism, so come over here, instead." And yes, he finished his book hoping we would listen to his plea, so we wouldn't burn in hell.

OTOH, I've known LDS who have felt that others would "burn in Telestial or Terrestrial hell." While we should offer the opportunity of exaltation to others, we must begin to realize that the Telestial and Terrestrial are HEAVENS and not hell. All individuals will go to the kingdom that is most like their character and being (D&C 88). In trying to save people from Terrestrial Hell, we have this affinity to insult them; just as we are insulted by those traditional Christians that try "loving us" into their version of heaven.

Maybe if all Christians were to concentrate more on what Jesus taught, rather than looking down on those around us because they are "sinners", perhaps we would realize there is more to unite us than divide us.

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If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

We do not know that all worlds are lifeless. We haven;'t investigated all by a long way. Of the ones we have investigated we do not even know if they were at one time inhabited. It could have been so, millenia ago.

We haven't discovered everything yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. America was still there even before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

How do we know how far creation goes? How do we know what there is beyond the things which we are aware of? Infinity is an awful long way. We do not know how many stars/suns there may be with planets (inhabit) in orbit around them, which may have created by other Gods. How do we know that some may have already come and gone? Eternity is a long time.

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

I'm a Mormon and I claim to be a Christian because I acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God in the flesh, as my Saviour. Whatever anyone else thinks of me and my beliefs does not change the fact that Jesus is my Lord. I know he lived and died for my sins as much as anyone else's and as a follower of his teachings and having faith in his atoning sacrifice I believe that entitles me to claim the designation 'Christian'.

As others have said, Muslims do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. They do not believe in his atonement. They revere him as a prophet but no more than Moses, Abraham and they set greater store by Mohammed. They would never wish to be called Christian because they do not accept Christ as their saviour.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

It doesn't matter to me what other Christians think of me, many have misconceptions about what we Mormons believe and base their opinions on incorrect information. It matters to me what Jesus Christ thinks of me and if he accepts me, which I believe he does. Baptists and Methodists do not share the same doctrine and yet they each describe themselves as Christian.

Mormons do not believe that we earn our salvation by works. That doctrine was taught long before our church existed. We believe we are saved by grace. However we do believe that good works must follow if we are to be obedient to our Heavenly Father. We are told in the scriptures "by their fruits ye shall know them." You calling yourself President even though you are not the President is actually more akin to people saying we Mormons are not Christians even though we are - just because they say it doesn't make it so.

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