War On Iran and Islam

[a-train]

Unfortunately, I know that this is a mere pipedream, because mankind in general is too selfish to think about the rest of the world instead of just about their own country and its 'friendly' neighbours...

What is worse is the fact that the 'friendly neighbors' one day are the enemies the next. U.S. foreign policy for Iran over the last half century is a shining example of such stupidity.

Western forces overthrow democracy and put their 'friendly neighbors' in power. Then, after a revolution and a return to democracy the west supports Saddam Hussein in a war against the infant democracy. In the midst of that war, a US Naval ship blows an Iranian passenger plane out of the sky killing 290 civilians. President G.H.W. Bush says of the event: 'I will never apologize for the United States of America. I don't care what the facts are.'

After supporting Saddam, we ultimately turn on him take him out and we are now engaged in the empirialism of the region. Should we have any question why Iran is so nervous about us and wants to obtain nuclear capabilities? The west has raped and pillaged Iran for decades and we are slaughtering the Iraqis by what some report to be hundreds of thousands.

Why all the trouble? It has been the same all along. Western barbarians pit Arabs against one another in all sorts of horrible war and hatred so they can maintain and expand corporate interests in the region. One day we are using Bin Laden as a CIA cooperative in the region, the next we are blaming him for the greatest act of terrorism on American soil.

I think it horrible that western powers are such brutal, bloodthirsty, barbarians. But what is the most alarming fact of it all is that they are OUR leaders.

God help us. We have to wake up and take back our country before it is gone.

-a-train

[a-train]

Actually, as PentiumInside pointed out, the majority of their hatred towards us is not because we don't worship Allah. Most Muslims/Arabs hate us because we took "their land" and gave a nice big chunk to form the modern state of Israel. Add on to that the fact that we propped Israel up and kept it from certain collapse during the Yom Kippur War (read up on Operation Nickelgrass), and you have several reasons for Israel's enemies to become our enemies.

You don't see the Muslim radicals spouting off against North Korea or China do you? Yet North Korea and China are not Muslim nations. Its not about who you pray to. Its about supporting Israel, an unforgivable sin in Arab and Palestinian eyes.

Exactly. The ramblings about attempts to wipe out all non-muslim people are phony. The terrorist scares are also phony. The west is the aggressor and as soon as we get that we can fix this mess.

Bin Laden's fatwa didn't list western support for Israel alone as a complaint, it listed all Muslim countries in which U.S. entanglements exist. Plus, what are we doing helping Israel anyway? They have the most powerful military in the region. Further, how much are we really helping them? The west, through the UN, is constantly trying to limit their military efforts, not promote them. Further, our presence in the region only escalates tensions. We are stirring up wars and rumors of wars and have been for a long time.

England got the Declaration of Independence as a legal reason to leave the U.S. alone or suffer a war they would never win. Pride will only elongate such quagmires. We should remember that and pull out of this emperialistic policy. Bush is so worried that we'll lose this war and he'll end up tried for war crimes for Guantonimo Bay and the torture going on there that he actually has legistlation passed to pre-pardon him! Watch It.

What we have to understand here is that British involvement in the oil of Iran began in 1901 and they have now suffered 100 years of trouble for it, trouble that has included starvation, war, torture, bloodshed, deceit, betrayal, and horror for the region and western investors have amassed gigantic fortunes through these oil revenues while giving the land owners pennies for their trouble.

I can understand the feeling of hesitancy toward the notion that the west is the aggressor here. I wish they were righteous and the corporations of the west were good, but they aren't. Bin Laden wasn't justified in killing unwitting Americans and Europeans. But the desire of Arabs to be spared any further harm by western barbarism is just and if we don't give justice we won't receive it.

-a-train

[a-train]

I see your effort to characterize the way things are, but I disagree with your characterization and your mindset.

So what you are saying is that you buy the Bush Administration's explanation of what is going on? You don't think that the previous documented acts of aggression and plunder on the part of the west have anything to do with the anti-west feelings among the Arabs? Or do you believe that the west has never done anything wrong over there?

Help me out. I have been and am reading the history I can find on this subject and everything I look at shows blood and deceit on the hands of the west going back for almost a century. You tell me. What evidence do we have that the Arabs are the aggressors?

-a-train

[a-train]

Let's not forget that on 11 September of 2001 they came into our country and in a clear act of war killed 3000 of our citizens in minutes. Before that we had no interestr (and very little presence) in the middle east. The world over buys oil from the Arabs, not just us. They hate everything we are and stand for. Do not forget they blame us (the US) for the existance of Israel. That dates back to 1948 and their gripe begins there.

Are you kidding?

The British bought a deal with Iran for as much oil as they could pump for sixty years for pennies on the dollar in 1901. The oil companies continued to amass fortunes while Iranians struggled through the Great Depression. By the early 50's it is reported that the Brits were making over 80% of the profits form Iranian oil. The Iranian Parliament nationalized the oil taking the profits back. The U.S., combined with Britian to overthrow the Iranian democratically elected Prime Minister and restore the Shah to power. Why? OIL! Operation Ajax

U.S. involvement has only gotten messier ever since, and all we had to do is buy the oil from democratic Iran. Why didn't we? The west wants more profits for western corporations. The U.S. economy depends on those corporations. Check it out.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

God bless capitalism and military superiority.

[Traveler]

So what you are saying is that you buy the Bush Administration's explanation of what is going on? You don't think that the previous documented acts of aggression and plunder on the part of the west have anything to do with the anti-west feelings among the Arabs? Or do you believe that the west has never done anything wrong over there?

Help me out. I have been and am reading the history I can find on this subject and everything I look at shows blood and deceit on the hands of the west going back for almost a century. You tell me. What evidence do we have that the Arabs are the aggressors?

-a-train

Perhaps you should read about the Ottoman Empire (Lawrence of Arabia). Perhaps you should read the history of Bahrain. Perhaps you should read about the clashes between Islam and Hindus in India and Pakistan. Perhaps you should read about what the Moslems have done to Buddhist in Indo China. Perhaps you should become familiar with the rift between the Shiite and the Sonnies within the nation of Islam.

I have posted in the past that the problems of the Middle East has more to do with Saudi Arabia and the royal family than it does to do with anything from any Western country. In addition the power struggles of the Middle East have more to do with water than oil. Even the Quran spells that out very plainly if you would take the time to read that.

I agree that President Bush has blundered in ignorance over the Middle East – but I think you are reading from a narrow view of history to think the west and our capitalistic based democracy is the singular problem to that part of the world.

The Traveler

[a-train]

I think you are reading from a narrow view of history to think the west and our capitalistic based democracy is the singular problem to that part of the world.

That is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying that the very poor policy conducted by the west, specifically the U.S. is the cause of our entanglement with the Arab world. We could have been courteous and professional businessmen. We could have refused to work with British corporate interests in acting like mobsters towards them.

My main message is that we still can. We can decide today to do the right thing and raise the standard of peace to these people. But if we go on rationalizing for western barbarism, we will not see an end. We will be in an eternal war against an idea rather than a people or a country. The war on terror, like the war on drugs, is not a war, it is a rumor of war.

So if you agree that Bush has made mistakes, would you also agree that it was a mistake to overthrow the Prime Minister of Iran and put the Shah into power? Was it also a mistake to fund the Iran-Iraq war? To support oil interests over human interests over the last several decades?

-a-train

[Fiannan]

Actually, as PentiumInside pointed out, the majority of their hatred towards us is not because we don't worship Allah. Most Muslims/Arabs hate us because we took "their land" and gave a nice big chunk to form the modern state of Israel. Add on to that the fact that we propped Israel up and kept it from certain collapse during the Yom Kippur War (read up on Operation Nickelgrass), and you have several reasons for Israel's enemies to become our enemies.

You don't see the Muslim radicals spouting off against North Korea or China do you? Yet North Korea and China are not Muslim nations. Its not about who you pray to. Its about supporting Israel, an unforgivable sin in Arab and Palestinian eyes.

Actually, Muslim radicals/jihadists hate China but don't cause too much trouble since the Chinese care nothing about human rights and are perfectly willing to crush the Muslim population (mostly an Asian/Turkish mixed minority in western China only numbering around 50 - 70 million) if things get out of hand. The Chinese are trying to eradicate this minority by ethnic cleansing policies including offering bonuses to Han Chinese men who take brides from this population so as to dilute the ethnic bonds of the local population.

However, mainline Islam is not going to go after the Chinese since the Chinese are oil thirsty and are willing to use means such as their UN SEcurity Council veto power to make deals with countries like Chad, Sudan and Iran to get oil rights with the promise not to meddle in these countries politics. Also, China would not look kindly on an American attack on Iran and as their strength grows they are less and less likely to be as passive when Clinton destroyed their embassy in Serbia during Operation Stained Dress in the 1990s (yeah, it was officially an accident -- right, the Chinese were behind the scenes assisting the Serbian military against US agression).

China needs oil and will do whatever it needs to in order to gain more oil from the Middle East. Traditionally China has not cared about Israel and its dealings with the Arabs but that may change in the near future. Ever wonder about that 250,000,000 man army described in Revelations???

[PentiumInside]

God bless capitalism and military superiority.

Amen :)

And A-train:

You have no idea what you are talking about when you say "western barbarism". You can put up pictures and rants of dead babies, etc all you want to. That stuff is inherent in WAR/CONFLICT. It has nothing to do with "the evil west" run by the "evil emperor bush". We lose more lives in PREVENTING barbarism than anything else. Now you may not agree with the reason we were dragged over there to occupy it in the first place, but don't even presume to dictate the actions or intentions of the soldiers over there atm. I never shot at anyone that didnt shoot at me first And don't cry about how they have a "reason" to shoot. They don't, and you know why. Nuff said.

[Guest Malcolm]

I agree with Pentium:

Those who had been fortunate enough to watch conflict from afar through the lenses of CNN should be mindful about their limited exposure and thus understanding of the much larger issues at work. The future is always built by pragmatists. The Utopians are all dead and buried. The reality is that many times we are forced to chose the lesser of two evils, literally. For any one to second guess the choice made by those directly involved, from the comfort of their living room is naive and disingenuous at best. Anyone can second guess every major decision in US history. The problem is that if you were to re-write it our country would not exist. It is called Causality Theory. Change any event and we are bound to end up in a world where Ibn Hazm of Cordova could have been a founding father of modern civilization. We would have been typing in Spanish or even Arabic in this forum. Maybe that appeals to some. Sorry but not me, given the current state of affairs.

[PentiumInside]

What I want to know is why do some people go so far out of their way to discredit ANYTHING the US ever did good..EVER!??

You have people who will denounce every single conflict/decision the US has made/been involved with since it was founded.

Go ahead, bring up any single subject and I will find you some idiot who thinks there was some alternate motive/incentive.

not to imply you fall into that catagory A-Train( well you very well might but not for your Iraq reasons ) I just thought I would put that out here.

[NeuroTypical]

I see your effort to characterize the way things are, but I disagree with your characterization and your mindset.

So what you are saying is that you buy the Bush Administration's explanation of what is going on?

You gotta love it folks. Remember, a-train isn't judging or insulting me. It's just that he's right, and anyone with a different viewpoint is a flawed dupe of da man. There's no room for middle ground, or differences of opinions.

Phooey.

LM

[a-train]

You gotta love it folks. Remember, a-train isn't judging or insulting me. It's just that he's right, and anyone with a different viewpoint is a flawed dupe of da man. There's no room for middle ground, or differences of opinions.

Phooey.

LM

This isn't an insult. I am actually asking a real question. Do you believe the Bush Administration's claims about why we went into Iraq? I'm not saying you are stupid if you believe the Administration's claims. I am asking you if you do. I am not trying to say there can be no difference of opinion, I am asking you what your opinion is. Sheesh.

I am also actually asking you whether you believe that the U.S. has made mistakes with regard to foreign policy in the middle east throughout the 20th Century. Do you think Operation Ajax was a good idea or a mistake? Do you think that Operation Ajax had any involvement in creating our current situation? This is a legit discussion, not an accusation.

Now, I haven't made any of these accusing statements about people being duped or anything. If I am totally off and am not understanding history correctly, please inform me. I want to talk about the issue of our nation's war, not who among us is 'stupid' or accusative.

-a-train

[Elphaba]

And A-train:

You have no idea what you are talking about when you say "western barbarism". You can put up pictures and rants of dead babies, etc all you want to. That stuff is inherent in WAR/CONFLICT. It has nothing to do with "the evil west" run by the "evil emperor bush". We lose more lives in PREVENTING barbarism than anything else. Now you may not agree with the reason we were dragged over there to occupy it in the first place, but don't even presume to dictate the actions or intentions of the soldiers over there atm. I never shot at anyone that didnt shoot at me first And don't cry about how they have a "reason" to shoot. They don't, and you know why. Nuff said.

What and where did a-train say anything about YOU, as a soldier, being responsible for ANYTHING that happened, and continues to happen, in this war?

He didn’t, and he wouldn’t. He is not that kind of person. And you can believe me, because we don't like each other all that much.

When you bring up your experiences as a soldier, which I can guarantee almost every single person on this site has unimaginable respect for, then you have used it as a conversation-stopper.

Is this what you're going to do every time you discuss the war with someone? If they don't agree with you you're going to bring up the fact that you had to do horrible things as a soldier, conversation over?

If you want to have a discussion, then discuss the issues, i.e., the war, Bush, Islam, oil, western barbarism, everything A-Train opened the thread with.

And before you think I am demeaning your service, I am not. People who know me know I do not. In fact, a thread where soldiers posted their stories would be fascinating to me.

Elphaba

[PentiumInside]

This isn't an insult. I am actually asking a real question. Do you believe the Bush Administration's claims about why we went into Iraq? I'm not saying you are stupid if you believe the Administration's claims. I am asking you if you do. I am not trying to say there can be no difference of opinion, I am asking you what your opinion is. Sheesh.

I am also actually asking you whether you believe that the U.S. has made mistakes with regard to foreign policy in the middle east throughout the 20th Century. Do you think Operation Ajax was a good idea or a mistake? Do you think that Operation Ajax had any involvement in creating our current situation? This is a legit discussion, not an accusation.

Now, I haven't made any of these accusing statements about people being duped or anything. If I am totally off and am not understanding history correctly, please inform me. I want to talk about the issue of our nation's war, not who among us is 'stupid' or accusative.

-a-train

OK..Lets talk :)

First off, we need to focus our energies on solutions to put out the fire and then try to place blame, instead of watching the house burn down trying to figure out whos at fault before we act.

Second, I do not buy any story of "why" we went in and I don't think we will ever really know 'til I can ask Jesus himself. Having said that, I have had more Iraqis than I can possibly remember tell me face to face, some of them in tears, that they were happier than I could know that the US kicked Saddam out. Now some of those people have I 'm sure, grown weary of the lack of dedication and commitment we have shown in fixing the country afterwards. However, many of them do not care if it EVER gets fixed, they would rather live in the chaos they have now than live under an evil regeime any longer. Its a tough call to say I am sorry I went because I am not. DId it suck to be away from my family for an entire year? yes. Did it suck to get grenades thrown at me all the time? A little, it was kinda cool sometimes lol. Did it suck even worse when I got involutarily recalled to be away from my family for a SECOND year? absolutely. But I brought hope to children of hour Heavenly Father in ways no one else could. Me. Personally, I did. And I made it back with all of my parts and most of my brains intact. When the last of my brothers come back and no one is still over there fighting the fight while I sit here in comfort, I will remain vigilant and pray for them and support them any way I can. After that, heck yeah..Im going to demand some answers.

Good enough for you?

And before you think I am demeaning your service, I am not. People who know me know I do not. In fact, a thread where soldiers posted their stories would be fascinating to me.

I don't think anything negative at all about your post and I hope I don't come off at all like that. I was refering to actions in general not mine at all. I did nothing I will be ashamed of in front of anyone, except maybe a few mean tricks on my friends

EDIT: And a couple things I can't post on these boards because of content, but I would be happy to relate them to you in private lol

[Elphaba]

I don't think anything negative at all about your post and I hope I don't come off at all like that. I was refering to actions in general not mine at all. I did nothing I will be ashamed of in front of anyone, except maybe a few mean tricks on my friends

EDIT: And a couple things I can't post on these boards because of content, but I would be happy to relate them to you in private lol

Okay, now I REALLY want to know! I have a page here somewhere...

Elphaba

[a-train]

Amen :)

And A-train:

You have no idea what you are talking about when you say "western barbarism". You can put up pictures and rants of dead babies, etc all you want to. That stuff is inherent in WAR/CONFLICT. It has nothing to do with "the evil west" run by the "evil emperor bush". We lose more lives in PREVENTING barbarism than anything else. Now you may not agree with the reason we were dragged over there to occupy it in the first place, but don't even presume to dictate the actions or intentions of the soldiers over there atm. I never shot at anyone that didnt shoot at me first And don't cry about how they have a "reason" to shoot. They don't, and you know why. Nuff said.

The western barbarism I am talking about isn't the act of our troops following orders. I do not pretend that the soldiers in Iraq are not being attacked. I do not pretend that they are at fault for this war. I have family and friends that have been and who are going over there.

Now, I'm not crying about it, but do American's have a right to fire at an invading enemy? I believe they do. I believe they have a duty to. Do Iraqis have the right to fire at invading enemies? I believe they do and they have a duty to, and so do Germans and Japanese and Vietnamese and all people of every nation on this earth.

Now, I understand that our troops mean no harm. I understand that members of my ward and family who have gone to Iraq went with no intention of harming anyone. Further, if it were up to them they would not be involved in a battle at all, but they would have peaceful relations with the Iraqis. Tell that to the Iraqis.

If a foreign military force arrived in the U.S. and began taking over government buildings and property and establishing bases, would we figure they mean no harm? No matter what we say, as long as we are occupying a nation with military force, they will see us as an enemy to be militarily engaged. There is no way around it. Or is there?

Now as far as second guesses on historical decisions go, if doing so avails nothing, then how can man learn? It is a mistake to place a hand on a hot stove and doing so has a convincing effect on man.

War becomes emotional because of the investment of blood. We all shudder to think that someone died needlessly in an needless battle. Their death alone is a worthy cause for which to fight. I believe that if a war was a tremendous mistake, it doesn't make the lives lost in battle vanity. I think no less of a man who courageously followed orders and died in battle, regardless of the misguided understanding of his commanders.

The issue here is whether this current conflict is preventing barbarism. Are we saving lives and ending barbarism, or are we fanning the fire?

Now, I am reading all I can and trying to be objective as possible in determining the answer to that. That is why I linked the article I posted. As far as I can tell, we are fanning the fire, and a direct conflict with Iran would be adding gasoline. If anyone has anything to demonstrate the opposite view, I'd like to hear it.

-a-train

[PentiumInside]

That is a very long process than many smarter people than you or I have failed at for many years but IMO it all boils down to education and tolerance. Something the US needs work on and arabs are failing miserably on. Without education and learning that we are all the same with the same desires, hopes and fears people will continue to think more of themselves than they do their fellow man.

Every single educated Iraqi I met supports us and denounces violence 100%. Almost without exception. The only educated terrorist is a religious nut-job.

But its a long discussion that I dont' feel I have the ability to discuss with you on a message board

But I do respect your opinion and I AM sworn to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. Trust me, if a domestic enemy presented itself in an outright dis-appropriate manner I would engage that enemy with an equal amount of fervor :)

[a-train]

First off, we need to focus our energies on solutions to put out the fire and then try to place blame, instead of watching the house burn down trying to figure out whos at fault before we act.

My point exactly. I'm not concerned with who made what mistakes. I'm concerned with what mistakes were made and how to fix the situation. I don't care who started the fire, I care about what started it, what continues to fuel it, and what can be done to put it out.

Do you think that policies that included things like Operation Ajax lead to our situation? Do you think that motives for such activities were good? I don't ask this to judge those who had the motives, but policies are made by motives and bad motives make bad policies. If we have bad motives making bad policies, the solution is to find good motives that provoke good policies.

Do you think that we need new motives and policies? If we have good motives and policies, what is going wrong? Do you see what I am asking?

-a-train

[PentiumInside]

I do..unfortunately its time for me to go home :) Ill post tomrrow if the thread doesnt take off without me and I forget ( i am getting old you know )

[a-train]

That is a very long process than many smarter people than you or I have failed at for many years but IMO it all boils down to education and tolerance. Something the US needs work on and arabs are failing miserably on. Without education and learning that we are all the same with the same desires, hopes and fears people will continue to think more of themselves than they do their fellow man.

Every single educated Iraqi I met supports us and denounces violence 100%. Almost without exception. The only educated terrorist is a religious nut-job.

But its a long discussion that I dont' feel I have the ability to discuss with you on a message board

But I do respect your opinion and I AM sworn to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. Trust me, if a domestic enemy presented itself in an outright dis-appropriate manner I would engage that enemy with an equal amount of fervor :)

We have before us, an election. Through this election we, the people of the U.S., are given some control over this issue. One candidate wants to pull out of the middle east 100% immediately, some want to phase out of certain areas over time but leave a permanent base, some want to stay until certain goals are met regardless of how long it takes, some seem to want to stay forever. This issue is one of the top two on the mind of Americans in this election. And not only with this election, but with regard to the general welfare of the nation.

Now, I want to vote this year, not for a candidate per se, but for the right policies and principles that will guide our nation to good. We want a President of character, but the tools we have to judge that character are his/her philosophy and record. I think most Americans can agree on that. I personally don't care what party, race, sex, or religion the leaders of our country are characterized by. I care about their integrity and their principles, their policies and execution.

With respect to the middle-east, we must determine what the best course of action is from here. Part of determining that can come to us as we understand how we got here. I want to understand where we came from, why we are here, and where we are going. This will tell us how to get there.

I think we arrived here because of our alliance with international corporate interests. I think a misalignment with those interests would get us out of this war and put us on a path to peace. It could mean higher gas prices and maybe even a shortage. It could mean economic crisis. However, perhaps the savings offered by a pull-out from the middle east could ease that crisis.

Yes, we are dealing with the lesser of two evils. For me, I think economic strain on the U.S. and high prices at the pump are a lesser evil than the war in Iraq. Regardless, I think the LORD will provide for us and bring us through such a crisis, especially if we took it upon ourselves to save countless lives and to raise a standard of peace.

-a-train

[Traveler]

That is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying that the very poor policy conducted by the west, specifically the U.S. is the cause of our entanglement with the Arab world. We could have been courteous and professional businessmen. We could have refused to work with British corporate interests in acting like mobsters towards them.

My main message is that we still can. We can decide today to do the right thing and raise the standard of peace to these people. But if we go on rationalizing for western barbarism, we will not see an end. We will be in an eternal war against an idea rather than a people or a country. The war on terror, like the war on drugs, is not a war, it is a rumor of war.

So if you agree that Bush has made mistakes, would you also agree that it was a mistake to overthrow the Prime Minister of Iran and put the Shah into power? Was it also a mistake to fund the Iran-Iraq war? To support oil interests over human interests over the last several decades?

-a-train

My friend a-train: There are some things you should be aware of.

The first is that Iran is not an Arabic country. Iran is a Persian country. The native language of Iran is not Arabic. There is no animosity among most Arabs concerning our western policies towards Iran – in fact there has been far grater barbarism given to Iran from Arabic countries than by any Western Country and this includes all the problems with the Shaw. Even during the Hajj there are divisions and factions in Islam that are against Iran being allowed to speak – something afforded to Moslems of even western countries. If you listen carefully some factions want to kill anyone that lives within Islamic territory that is not Islamic. We are hated more for freedom of religion than for what you call barbarism. Do you know what is done under Islamic law to those that convert to another religion and those that converted them? Are you aware that LDS missionaries are not allowed to proselyte a Moslem?

Now when you are talking about human rights are you talking about nearly beating a woman to death for being raped? Are you talking about women not being allowed to drive a car, vote or attend college? Are you talking about freedom of religion? Are you talking about human rights to listen to the music of your choice? Are you talking about the execution of males that perform “female” homosexual roles and the men performing the “male” role in the relationship are of no concern. Do you remember when the Prime Minister of Iran said there are no homosexuals in Iran? Do you know why he said that?

Now I want a straight answer. You talk about bad policies and you have not touched on any of the very bad policies our government has been involved with. Instead you are talking about corporate and business policies (oil) in the Middle East. What have US business done in the Middle East that is worse than what the same business have done here in the USA? Yet in other places on this forum you post that government should stay out of the way of business. Do we need less or more regulation of business to include government oversight of your paycheck?

So tell me straight – Should government regulate how businesses do business – or just business debt? Should there be more regulation or less?

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

Hi A,

If you want to understand the dynamics of this war, one thing you need to do is to understand Islam. That is the biggest mistake the Bush cabal made in launching into this obscene war in the first place. And there were people telling the administration this, but the people who counted would not listen.

Traveler’s first paragraph, describing Iran, is correct as far as it goes.

His second paragraph is true as well; however, it is not exclusive to Iran but is true for the entire Islamic world. A woman can be buried up to her head and stoned to death for being seen in the presence of another man. This happens in today’s world, and women have no protection from this. Most of the Islamic governments include the law of Sharia; Egypt just recently adopted it. This means that anywhere in Egypt, if an Islamic judge said so, a woman could be beheaded for commiting a sexual crime.

Until we understand Islam, and understand that the only people who can help us really make progress are moderate Muslims, we will get nowhere.

Until we understand that moderate Muslims will probably not help us until they see us stop obliterating their fellow Muslims, even though they may not agree with what they are doing--this is going to go on and on and on.

Until the current and future perpetrators of this war understand that American soldiers cannot walk through Iraq’s Holy Cities with guns in their hands, killing Muslim children, and calling Iraqis who did not ask Americans into their country “insurgents,” moderate Muslims are never going to help us.

The only chance the Western World has is to communicate with the moderate Muslims. They don't like terrorists any more than we do. But these are their fellow Muslims that WE are attacking, and for no good reason that they can see. How would you react to that?

There is never going to be a military answer to this. The more military actions the US takes, the more terrorists it creates. If you don't believe me, look at Afghanistan, and say hi to the Taliban.

Elphaba

[a-train]

My friend a-train: There are some things you should be aware of...

Yes, I am aware that there exists terrible human rights violations in the middle-east and per our discussion in Iran. Yes, I understand that there are all sorts of factions in that region that have various agendas political, religious, and otherwise who resort to violence to forward their cause and that great bloodshed has piled up for centuries. Yes I know that missionaries are instructed not to teach Muslims in certain parts of the world. However, I do not see how that has any substantial effect on our situation. If anything, if we deem these people and their society to be ruthless and dangerous, we should beware and use extra caution.

The bad U.S. policy I am talking about includes Operation Ajax, funding of the Iran-Iraq war, and any U.S. involvement in factional or national disputes or war throughout the region. This would also include CIA cooperation with Bin Laden. I believe that these entanglements have led us to our bad relations in the middle east (with all sorts of parties) which are now multiplying greatly due to our occupation.

On government intervention in business (we are changing subjects a bit), we need less. My paycheck would look a lot better with less government involvement. I think our economy as a whole would be better. Corporate welfare, an encyclopedia of tax benefits, contracts, land use, the government involvement in general has become a process that gives big business the edge to crush American entrepreneurialism and the middle class. If I am properly informed, in the past few decades, the tax burden of our government has lifted from big business and has rested more on the people.

I don't think that bad business practices by western corporations in the middle-east have led to our entangled situation. I think that government entanglement, especially those actions which by definition are acts of war and those actions which have been an intervention in or an obstruction of governmental processes or affairs has brought us into the mess we are in. The sin of it has been our motive. Our entangling actions were motivated by corporate interests. I think we should take notice of that and remember to never compromise our good principles for economic purposes.

What do you think? Would you say that our record in the middle-east has been good or bad? What could we do to improve and how do we decide?

-a-train

[a-train]

Hi A,

If you want to understand the dynamics of this war...

I'd say you are right on. If we endeavor to bring civil rights and peace to that region, war is the opposite of productive. I think if the various groups saw the U.S. as neutral and cordial to all, we would have a much greater chance at influencing the region for good.

Even if our entanglements there had been for all the right reasons, I imagine only the tiniest minority believes that over there. And, if the end justifies the means, our means has been downright unjust.

If we pulled the plug today and got 100% out (Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, everywhere) we could see huge market swings in oil and other sectors which could cause serious economic swings worldwide. We could also suffer major corporate retaliation against our government and leaders. We could also see a bloodbath. But the longer we stay, we only prolong those issues. I see it like a band-aid, we need to just rip it off and deal with the pain.

However, I am not interested in what hurts the least, I am interested in what is the right thing to do. I think we could offer safety to those who need it, such as those who helped us and who would be in danger after our departure. I think we should respect the religious, economic, national, and cultural values of the middle-east and show it.

End the war now.

-a-train