Help me find this book!

[person0]

Someone recently shared a post on Twitter about early Catholic fathers who believed in a concept of 'preexistence'.  I shared the same image with a friend who is curious about the name of the book.  I have tried using AI and have tried web search for some of the text and have come up empty handed.

Anyone here familiar with this or have skills they can deploy to find the source?

Thanks!

[mikbone]

From ChatGPT

“Augustine of Hippo, a prominent early Christian theologian, did not advocate for the idea of preexistence in his teachings. Preexistence, the belief that souls exist in a prior state before being born into the physical world, was considered by Augustine but ultimately rejected.

In his exploration of the nature of the soul and its origins, Augustine examined various theories, including preexistence. However, he concluded that the soul is created at the moment of conception, aligning with the doctrine of creationism. This belief contrasts with the preexistence theory, which was associated with Platonic and Origenist thought.

Augustine's rejection of preexistence was part of his broader theological framework that emphasized original sin and the necessity of divine grace for salvation. He argued that if souls preexisted, it would undermine the doctrine of original sin, which holds that sin is inherited through human generation from Adam and Eve.

Overall, Augustine's teachings contributed significantly to shaping orthodox Christian doctrine, affirming the creation of the soul at conception and rejecting the idea of preexistence.”

 

Who were the earliest proponents of a pre-existence?

 

“The concept of preexistence, the belief that souls exist prior to their earthly lives, has roots in several ancient philosophies and religious traditions. Some of the earliest proponents of preexistence include:

1. **Plato**: In ancient Greek philosophy, Plato espoused the idea of the preexistence of souls. In works such as the "Phaedrus" and the "Timaeus," Plato argued that the soul existed before birth and possessed knowledge from this preexistent state, which it forgot upon entering the body. The process of learning, according to Plato, was actually a process of recollection of this preexisting knowledge.

2. **Pythagoreans**: Followers of Pythagoras, an earlier Greek philosopher, also believed in the immortality and preexistence of the soul. They taught that the soul underwent a cycle of reincarnations, where it would live multiple lives in different bodies.

3. **Philo of Alexandria**: A Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, Philo integrated Platonic thought with Jewish theology. He held that souls preexisted in a divine realm before descending into the physical world, where they became embodied.

4. **Origen of Alexandria**: One of the early Christian theologians, Origen, was a notable proponent of preexistence within the context of Christian doctrine. He posited that all souls were created by God in a preexistent state and fell into their earthly bodies as a result of their free will. This idea, however, was later deemed heretical by the mainstream Christian church.

These early proponents laid the groundwork for discussions on the nature of the soul and its origins, influencing various religious and philosophical traditions.“

[mordorbund]

Are you looking for the book in the image or the Augustine text? The image may be The God Who Weeps. I don’t have access to the book so I can’t confirm.

[person0]

2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Are you looking for the book in the image or the Augustine text? The image may be The God Who Weeps. I don’t have access to the book so I can’t confirm.

I was looking for the book in the image.  I found it!

"Do the Mormons have a leg to stand on?" by Scott R. Peterson

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, mikbone said:

...........

2. **Pythagoreans**: Followers of Pythagoras, an earlier Greek philosopher, also believed in the immortality and preexistence of the soul. They taught that the soul underwent a cycle of reincarnations, where it would live multiple lives in different bodies.

.........

A long time ago (college) I did research on Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans.  Pythagoras was not his real name but a name he took upon himself that was after a secret ancient Egyptian mathematical cult of which he had become a member.  He leaked some of their secrets and as a result became famous.  One secret bears his adopted name.  The ancient Egyptian Pythagoreans were responsible for a great deal of the Egyptian engineering and architectural projects – all of which have an important impact on our modern mathematical theories. 

I have a personal theory that the source of the ancient Egyptian mathematics came through Abraham when he was in Egypt and were given by divine revelation.

 

On another note – I have never see a good argument to resolve original sin (as a viable doctrine), creation of man, the fall  - all in connection to the love, mercy and justice of G-d.   Without a pre-existence and a post death – pre-resurrection existence: I do not believe anyone can justify any belief in justice or a G-d of mercy.  There are shades of this conundrum in the current arguments of white privilege.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

23 hours ago, mikbone said:

From ChatGPT

“Augustine of Hippo, a prominent early Christian theologian, did not advocate for the idea of preexistence in his teachings. Preexistence, the belief that souls exist in a prior state before being born into the physical world, was considered by Augustine but ultimately rejected.

ChatGPT is wrong.

Augustine of Hippo (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

He believed in it.  But he was not certain enough about it to declare it as fact.  He tended to believe it because it solved some epistemological hurdles.

The fact that he could admit that there were problems with the theology of ex nihilo creation, and that the preexistence did solve those problems should say something about those who don't see a problem with ex nihlo and reject the preexistence as way out in left field.

One point of confusion is that he rejected transmigration of souls.  For some reason, many sectarians conflate the two.  That shows a lack of understanding of the doctrines and would be incorrect.

Edited June 10, 2024 by Carborendum