Heaven and polgamy???

[Elphaba]

I think you missed the point. The case I illustrate is REAL.

As were mine.

It happens today in Central America in certain locations and it has nothing to do with religion and it may or may not be the first time it happens in certain families.

I did a search of kidnappings in Central America, and what I found was nothing like what you described.

What happens there is that families who are very rich have to send their marriageable age children out of the countries. Otherwise, the risk of their children being kidnapped is extremely high. However, these children are not kidnapped to be married into another family. They are kidnapped for money, which if the parents don't give over, the child is killed. Perhaps you could provide a resource for what you are referring, because I suspect I just couldn’t find it.

What I also found, and what I previously alluded to, is that these kidnappings are also very common in Central Asia. These kidnappings do have a strong religious bent to them.

This are truly heartfell stories of selfless love between sisters. Most men face the situation with trepidation.

I did not find any stories of this nature, but I do not doubt its veracity. Can you tell me where to find a source?

It is not discussed and it happens as a way to "save the girls" from a horrible life. The kidnappings are not arranged. A couple of friends plot to take a school girl one of them like on a horse and take her to a town 5 hours away. She may have never seen the guy before.

If it is not discussed, how do you know about it?

I think most people visualize polygamy in the same way a temporal marriage functions.

I don’t. I think most people visualize polygamy as a sexually charged relationship.

A priesthood holder may have a family which could be a complex organization and he would be the spiritual guide and leader, a teacher, a pillar and a source of inspiration for growth for the family. We have to put away ideas about cohabitation and the like.

Why? You wouldn’t cohabitate with your wives?

The group you are talking about does sound very interesting.

Elphaba

[shanstress70]

I'm not sure which church you're thinking about, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - AKA Mormons - the folks that went west with Brigham - the church with their HQ in Salt Lake City - the church all the mormons on this site belong to (except Dale), do no longer pracice polygamy. If you are sealed to your wife in the temple, and she's still alive, you don't get sealed to anyone else.

LM

But if she dies, you can be sealed to another, as well as her. Sorry I haven't read the rest of the thread yet. I'm sure someone else has pointed this out.

[Shade]

This is not true. If the man and woman are alive, the sealing includes the legal and lawful marriage.

hang on…

i'm from south africa and maybe things simply work a little differently in my country???? but this tuesday just past, my home teacher told me about his own son's marriage:

it involved meeting in the bishop's office, signing the legal civil marriage documents (or marriage register as it is called here), then going off to the temple and being married in the temple and then a separate ordinance which involved actually being sealed to one another. or at least this was the way i understood what he explained. i've never been to a temple marriage, so perhaps i misunderstood what he explained.

but one thing was quite clear: there are TWO very separate marriages involved. one civil, the other eternal

[Iggy]

hang on…

i'm from south africa and maybe things simply work a little differently in my country???? but this tuesday just past, my home teacher told me about his own son's marriage:

it involved meeting in the bishop's office, signing the legal civil marriage documents (or marriage register as it is called here), then going off to the temple and being married in the temple and then a separate ordinance which involved actually being sealed to one another. or at least this was the way i understood what he explained. i've never been to a temple marriage, so perhaps i misunderstood what he explained.

but one thing was quite clear: there are TWO very separate marriages involved. one civil, the other eternal

The Temple Marriage is recognized as legal and binding by the civil authorities in the United States. Many countries do not accept the Temple Marriage as legal and binding on its own, and require that the couple be married civily. As in your Africa. In cases such as this, the Church waives the one year waiting time between the civil ceremony and the Temple Marriage Sealing.

My husband and I could not get to the Temple to get married, so we had a civil ceremony first. Had we gone to the Temple first, the ceremony would have been just one service. We would have been married and sealed at the same time.

Since we chose to be married civily first, we had to wait one year to be sealed to each other eternally.

[Elphaba]

hang on…

i'm from south africa and maybe things simply work a little differently in my country???? but this tuesday just past, my home teacher told me about his own son's marriage:

it involved meeting in the bishop's office, signing the legal civil marriage documents (or marriage register as it is called here), then going off to the temple and being married in the temple and then a separate ordinance which involved actually being sealed to one another. or at least this was the way i understood what he explained. i've never been to a temple marriage, so perhaps i misunderstood what he explained.

but one thing was quite clear: there are TWO very separate marriages involved. one civil, the other eternal

As Iggy explained, the civil marriage laws vary, and the Church is required to abide by those laws.

However, this does not change my point. A man can still be sealed to two or more wives, which would make this a polygamous relationship in the Celestial Kingdom. But he can only be civilly married to one wife at a time, and this marriage must be prior to the temple sealing.

Elphaba

[Dale]

We never accepted polygamy nor practiced it. The Community of Christ were active in working to get polygamy made illegal. Joseph Smiths sons went to Utah and proclaimed against plural marriage. We split from the LDS after about 15 years. The Fundemental LDS type church split from the LDS over their refusal to accept the end of earthly polygamy in the LDS Church.

Plural marriage sealings are still allowed among LDS. But as it has been said the woman has to die first. Or a temple divorce has to be obtained before a man could take another wife. These are the last remnants of plural marriage in LDS temple practice i am aware of. I know at one point living women were sealed to dead LDS leaders. I do not know when the practice was totally discontinued.

I am not sure all polygamy would be illegal. If a polygamy ceremony were worded very carefully it might not count as violating the law. If the woman were sealed to a man for eternity only in what amounted to a pretend ceremony it would not be illegal. It would not involve any marital rights in the flesh. The federal polygamy, and even state laws were meant to ban earthly polygamy. But if one adopted a legally pretend marriage for symbolic religious purposes only it might have protection under the constitution. It would be very clear to the law that the extra wife was not your wife. In the spiritual sense you could consider her your future wife. But you could truthfully say she was not your wife.

The LDS Church never tried to approach practicing plural marriage in that way. Once they got out of earthly polygamy they got out of it. I do not even see LDS as open to its re-institution unless God commanded it. They prefer it to remain a thing of the past.

The LDS Church has nothing to do with anything contrary to monogamy these days. Sealings are not polygamy, nor do they volate any laws. Agreeing to future polygamy would be something for when mans laws no longer prevent it. It is not the same as having two wives in mortality.

[Hemidakota]

Even though our nation, our states, don't allow Plural Marriage; will allow same sex marriages. I never can understand why people keep would keep up with this charade.

[Elphaba]

Even though our nation, our states, don't allow Plural Marriage; will allow same sex marriages. I never can understand why people keep would keep up with this charade.

I have always believed laws against the Church’s practice of polygamy denied the pioneers' their First Amendment right of separation of church and state. Polygamy was a religious practice; therefore it obviously should have been protected by the First Amendment.

I also believe there will be a challenge to the laws against polygamy by one of the polygamous factions. With the precedent set by Lawrence v. Texas, I believe the laws prohibiting polygamy will be rescinded.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

duplicate post

Elphaba

[the Ogre]

If polgamy was allowed until 1890-s bye the church prophet.Is it fair good LDS members who are sealed in Heaven with a few wives has the advantage over being sealed in the temple with one wife??? While the church member has many wives in heaven with spirtual children.The other church member only has one wife and spiritual children.Wouldn't this cause jealous in heaven??? If you lived before 1890-s you could have many wives in heaven with you!!! Now you only have one wife with you in heaven.

LOL . . . What complete silliness.

[the Ogre]

Is it just me? I desire a special relationship that only my spouce and I share (no other women) I beleive that marriage should be a special bond and you devote your whole self to that ONE and only. I would feel like something is lost if either of us shared that with anyone else. Plus, if you are looking at someone else to marry it seems to me that you are being unfaithful to your spouse.

I'm with you here, but what happens if we are commanded to live polygamy again? I do not know for sure, but I believe many breathed a sigh of relief when the practice was ended.

[Hemidakota]

If polgamy was allowed until 1890-s bye the church prophet.Is it fair good LDS members who are sealed in Heaven with a few wives has the advantage over being sealed in the temple with one wife??? While the church member has many wives in heaven with spirtual children.The other church member only has one wife and spiritual children.Wouldn't this cause jealous in heaven??? If you lived before 1890-s you could have many wives in heaven with you!!! Now you only have one wife with you in heaven.

Presume assumption, Yellow. Seeing women in greater numbers than men, will endure to the end. Isaiah noted this when he saw it in a vision. Now, it is a commandment to be married and sealed in marriage, what would you do with the remainder 6-women who are righteous but have no sealed companion?

[Elphaba]

I'm with you here, but what happens if we are commanded to live polygamy again? I do not know for sure, but I believe many breathed a sigh of relief when the practice was ended.

Hi Ogre,

I believe the same thing that happened with the 19th Century Mormons will happen with the 21 Century Mormons, to a point.

First, there would be the commandment from God to begin practicing polygamy again.

Second would be the battle making polygamy legal, which after Lawrence vs. Texas, I believe the polygamists would win.

Then, I believe the practice of polygamy would be much like it was in the 19th century. Those in the leadership positions would take on new wives first, setting examples for everyone and demonstrating what God has commanded the Saints are asked to sacrifice, and conversely, the blessings they will also receive.

It would be incredibly difficult for both spouses, but just like the 19th Century LDS, they would live in polygamous relationships, insisting they did it because it was a direct commandment from God. And today, those chosen to live in polygamy would have a commitment to living "the principle" as strong and fulfilling as anyone's, knowing they were keeping God's commandment.

Of course, it would not be exactly the same, because Utah, and other areas heavily populated by LDS, are not isolated like it was in the mid-1800s to 1900; therefore, there is going to be much more prejudice to contend with.

On the other hand, there are more people who are tolerant of different lifestyles; unfortunately, not many of them live in Utah.

But that is the price the LDS will have to pay. And I still say they will pay it gladly, because they know it is a commandment directly from the Lord.

Jealousy is a huge problem in polygamy, but it is not talked about. Rather, it is swept under the wrong, and can cause a woman to live her life never feeling special, wanted or loved. It's very easy to say that happens to many women, and it does. But most of us don't watch our husbands go off to another bedroom at the same time. Not surprisingly, though, these same women when being interviewed, will tell the reporter they choose to live in polygamy as it is commanded of God.

And those who refuse to participate in polygamy, especially those called to from those who have stewardship above them, will face dire consequences.

Of course, as an atheist I don't believe the reasons for the practice of polygamy are valid.

But I cannot deny the astonishing commitment the early members had toward God's commandment they live in polygamy. I have read a rather large number of journals from that time period, and not one of them has complained of polygamy. They may speak of negative feelings toward a "sister wife," and if she speaks this way about the same woman often, that is how I would know how she felt about polygamy.

But that is the ONLY way I could tell is how the women described members of the family or other social-economic incidents--because every single one said they were glad to have God's commandment of polygamy, and how commited they were to it. It was clear that wasn't always the truth--but they were NOT going to deny their God's commandments, nor his love.

These pioneer women, and their commitment to their God, are some of my heroes.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

If polygamy was allowed until 1890s by the church prophet. Is it fair good LDS members who are sealed in Heaven with a few wives has the advantage over being sealed in the temple with one wife??? While the church member has many wives in heaven with spiritual children. The other church member only has one wife and spiritual children. Wouldn't this cause jealousy in heaven??? If you lived before 1890s you could have many wives in heaven with you!!! Now you only have one wife with you in heaven.

Hopefully not too much jealousy. Perhaps when they see the eternal headaches that could go along with such multiple liaisons, they will be grateful for the one spouse. Besides, this whole area has lead to such speculations as the to whether the Celestialized males would have the pickings of the females of the other kingdoms. That speculation is always a hoot.

[Elgama]

If we are talking about polygamy in heaven I know several men alive today who have 2 or 3 wives they are sealed to - in mortality they had one at a time but they are sealed to all of them, I don't see much jelousy personally I see much wisdom in polygamy and my husband is terrified by the idea lol

In todays housing market in the UK it would be the best way to have more than one income in a home whilst ensuring the children were cared for at home and not placed in a bad anursery or childminding situation. For someone like myself who is disabled having someone to share the difficulties of parenthood and wifehood with would have its advantages. But I know my husband is a good man and it would be handled well,

-Charley

[Fiannan]

If we are talking about polygamy in heaven I know several men alive today who have 2 or 3 wives they are sealed to - in mortality they had one at a time but they are sealed to all of them, I don't see much jelousy personally I see much wisdom in polygamy and my husband is terrified by the idea lol

In todays housing market in the UK it would be the best way to have more than one income in a home whilst ensuring the children were cared for at home and not placed in a bad anursery or childminding situation. For someone like myself who is disabled having someone to share the difficulties of parenthood and wifehood with would have its advantages. But I know my husband is a good man and it would be handled well,

-Charley

Well Elphaba, just wanted to let you know I agree with your analysis of polygamy except I think there are some women who would not find reasons for jealosy. Also, as opposed to the 19th. Century, I think there are many people open to lifestyles that are unconventional -- like going back to OT family values.

As for your post Elgama, I agree that modern lifestyles would be better suited to polygamy than even the 19th. Century was. There are a lot of women who have to forego having children or have to go to sperm banks to get the gift of children. I believe that career women and women who are a bit unconventional who want families could be drawn to this lifestyle as much as traditional mistresses were drawn to men in Latin America, Russia and southern Europe in the 19th. Century. In that lifestyles women often know their husbands had additional lovers and that those lovers were also bearing his children. There were even customs that said how these relationships should be maintained. The only difference between such arrangements and polygamy was that in Mormonism the man was supposed to be married to all his sexual partners.

By the way, if you discovered you had a great, great, great grandfather from Brazil, and he had a wife as well as two mistresses who he had families with, could you seal all three of the women to him in the temple?

[Marsha8]

Well Elphaba, just wanted to let you know I agree with your analysis of polygamy except I think there are some women who would not find reasons for jealosy. Also, as opposed to the 19th. Century, I think there are many people open to lifestyles that are unconventional -- like going back to OT family values.

As for your post Elgama, I agree that modern lifestyles would be better suited to polygamy than even the 19th. Century was. There are a lot of women who have to forego having children or have to go to sperm banks to get the gift of children. I believe that career women and women who are a bit unconventional who want families could be drawn to this lifestyle as much as traditional mistresses were drawn to men in Latin America, Russia and southern Europe in the 19th. Century. In that lifestyles women often know their husbands had additional lovers and that those lovers were also bearing his children. There were even customs that said how these relationships should be maintained. The only difference between such arrangements and polygamy was that in Mormonism the man was supposed to be married to all his sexual partners.

By the way, if you discovered you had a great, great, great grandfather from Brazil, and he had a wife as well as two mistresses who he had families with, could you seal all three of the women to him in the temple?

Why do you have a wife and two mistresses?

[Fiannan]

Why do you have a wife and two mistresses?

Say what?

[ztodd]

Why do you have a wife and two mistresses?

lol, you forgot your comma after the Why. Fiannan got confused.

[ztodd]

People ! Are we obsessed with polygamy ?

Good grief ... I've read the theads and it seems like folks are very concerned about how many wifes a man will have in heaven. Someone wrote about sharing partners in heaven and even about pregnant women in heaven. Give me a break. Why would there be pregnancy in heaven?

In a nutshell... It is not necessary to have creation in heaven. You will remember from your LDS primary lessons that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman created. Why? To bring spirits from heaven to live here on Earth. This is the origin of mankind and basic knowledge you should have. Spirits wait to come to Earth. ***The gift of Creation is to bring spirits here to Earth *** We are also here to help one another, his sheep. We will be judged by our works and our faith. Our life is limited and we are here for a short time. When we die our mortal bodies and all our possessions will be left here. Our spirits return to Jesus and Heavenly Father as children.

To talk about polygamy is a Earthly perversion of thought and wish to satisfy your fantasy. This is a sin. This practice was abolished from Earth once and for all. In truth God never commanded this practice. It was man's idea. JSmith was killed because of this.

Better you should think about your faith. Ask yourself have you done anything good to help someone ? Jesus will ask you what have you done in the time he has given you. To be idle is a sin.

Thanks, Pilot

( clear skies ahead )

Welcome to the forum Pilot. Are you LDS?

[ztodd]

No, it does not. Look up "polygamy" in the dictionary. You will never find the word "civil" in the definition. Polygamy is simply a marriage where one spouse has two or more spouses. That is it.

That's an earthly dictionary. It only refers to earthly things. :)

...

So you can see that while you may not like the usage of the word "polygamy," it was, and is proper. And while I do understand the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine, it does show that "polygamy" was a word that was used often by God's prophets to describe what God was commanding the Saints to practice.

Ok- well that was fine for them I guess. I prefer to avoid the term because it's considered so negative now.

You need to be more cautious when making such statements. I realize you are talking about the polygamous sects begun by Latter-day Saints in the beginning of the 20th Century, but not everyone does.

In fact, there are polygamists the world over, some are LDS and some are not. Making statements about polygamists being "evil" is, in my opinion, offensive, because you have no way of knowing if any other person on the planet is evil.

Good point. Sorry that I made it sound that way. I didn't mean that everyone who practiced it was evil. I just meant that it will not be permitted to be done in wickedness in heaven.

And finally, I still maintain the LDS Church continues to practice polygamy, as defined by its doctrine. If you want to call it "Celestrial Marriage," or "plural marriage," it doesn't matter to me. But every time a man marries/is sealed to his second, third, fourth, etc. wife in the temple, he is marrying another wife with whom he expects to live for eternity in the Celestial Kingdom. That is polygamy.

Not according to President Hinckley. He said anyone practicing polygamy is excommunicated from the church.

[Elgama]

Not according to President Hinckley. He said anyone practicing polygamy is excommunicated from the church.

Elphie is quite right I know of several LDS polygamists who won't be excommunicated their wife has died and they have been sealed to a second wife - if President Hinckley had remarried after Sister Hinckley died he would have been in our theology a man with 2 wives, t

-Charley

[ztodd]

I'm just saying that President Hinckley defined polygamy as having more than one spouse in this life at the same time.

I guess you can define it however you want to.

[Elphaba]

I'm just saying that President Hinckley defined polygamy as having more than one spouse in this life at the same time.

No, he did not, at least nowhere I could find, and I have looked in ever nook and cranny I could find. If someone does know of a quote where President Hinckley states polygamy is an excommunicable offense while on earth, but not in the Celestial Kingdom, I would be very glad to have it, and would happily admit I am wrong.

But from what I have seen, President Hinckley, nor any other modern president, has never made a distinction between the mortal life and the immortal when speaking of polygamy.

And he was adamant that any member(s) caught practicing polygamy would be immediately excommunicated, when in fact, to this day, members continue to practice polygamy, as defined by Church doctrine, with no repercussions.*

Therefore, in this one issue, President Hinckley was being disingenuous.

Elphaba

*For example, a man whose first wife has passed on can marry/be sealed to another women in the temple, resulting in two wives in the Celestial Kingdom; thus, a polygamous relationship.

[Hemidakota]

If this is the case in our area, they would of been excommunicated. I haven't heard any church polygamy weddings. If you have names, I would be glad to forward it. LOL