No more doctrine given until...

[Guest tomk]

2 Nephi 32:

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

Referencing my emphasized words in verse 6 -- there is a rather startling aspect to what is being talked about here, or rather I should say, what I think is being talked about here.

One of the most important things I try to keep in mind while reading the scriptures is that they are primarily for THIS life, our day of probation.

Keeping that emphasis in mind -- I believe that this manifestation of the Savior unto us in the flesh is a reference to our receiving the Second Comforter in this life. It is not a reference to His (then) future mnistry amond the Jews or the Nephites or anyone else. This is referencing a personal, private ministration of the Savior to us individually!

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

When this verse is read in the context of the promised "manifestation" being something we are supposed to experience while still here on earth -- the implications are interesting, to say the least!

Many Saints seem to think that seeing the Savior is something most of us are not meant to experience during mortality. But when this verse is read with an eye of faith, and read as being FOR US while yet mortal -- that is the conclusion I draw.

To bring home my point a bit more -- think about the Sacrament. We are commaned to partake of it weekly. So the Lord thinks it is important. The Lord is trying to say something to us.

It is interesting to read the Sacrament prayer in the D&C and look at one of the footnotes in reference to his Spirit.

77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this abread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and bwitness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his ccommandments which he has given them; that they may always have his dSpirit to be with them. Amen.

Footnote "d" points to the following verse:

John 14: 16. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another aComforter, that he may babide with you for ever;

In this verse, footnote "a" points to the following:

TG Jesus Christ, Second Comforter.

When you look at the phrase again, in that light, whose Spirit is being referenced?

that they may always have his dSpirit to be with them. Amen.

This is not a reference to the Holy Ghost or its influence, but to having the literal person and presence of Jesus Christ to be with us, first on the other side of the veil, and then in person. This manifestation is not a reference to the Spirit World or some future judgement day. The visit of Jesus Christ is intended for this life!

The symbolism found in the temple also makes more sense in this light. We "knock" and "converse" with Somone "at the veil." He invites us to "enter His presence."

that they may always have his dSpirit to be with them. Amen.

Every Sunday we are, in effect, expressing our willingness to enter His presence when the time is right, when we are sufficiently prepared and "like Him" in the necessary ways. I think the only mistake some of us make is our assumption as to WHEN this might take place! We think it is to happen after this life.

Granted, many faithful Saints might not experience this during their lives. Depending on where you are in the continuum, it just isn't likely to happen for you. But I think the promised blessing was given in the context of our mortal probation. When it is fulfilled during our mortal probation -- it has it's full potency and realizes it's fullest intent -- the "fullness" of the Gospel.

I don't have a "point" in all of this except to share some of my personal beliefs and perspective on where I feel our focus should be, and what marvelous things are in plain sight if we have "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" them with.

I look forward to your thoughts.

[sixpacktr]

I must admit, I've never looked at it that way before. I do remember a talk on BYU TV about 6-8 months ago given by a GA that spoke of D&C 46:13 and 14, speaking of knowing Jesus is the Christ and believing on the testimony of others that Jesus is the Christ, and the point he made was that we are to be 'verse 13ers', not necessarily 'verse 14ers', and his journey to becoming a verse 13er. That too changed my perspective on things.

So thanks for the discourse. Ain't the BOM great!

[Still_Small_Voice]

If we read Matthew chapter seven verse seven:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"

Jesus also said:

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." John 14:21

Whether this manifestation will be a personal visitation, a vision or a witness of the Spirit I do not know. But the Lord will manifest Himself to all who are truly humble, love Him and seek for Him.

Experiences will happen to any who are truly seeking. The Lord answers in His own time and in His own way.

[tubaloth]

Interesting none the less.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

But I don’t equate this scripture with the rest of your thought. This is just talking about the change that happens after Christ comes (the law of Moses is fulfilled) Nephi is just explaining the law is during his time and this isn’t going to change (no more new doctrine) until after Christ fulfills the law.

Now the rest of your thought is interesting, and I would have to agree with the part about the sacrament. But even more you are missing the straight up scripture on this topic of seeking the face of the Lord.

(Doctrine and Covenants 84:23-26.)

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

(Doctrine and Covenants 88:63-68.)

63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

64 Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;

65 And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.

66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will

Actually there is a great chapter in Elder Bruce R. McConkies book Promised Messiah that all talks about “Seeking the Face of the Lord” It’s the second to last chapter. It teachings this very simple principle, that the Lord wants to show himself to us in this life if we are just ready to do so.

[Guest tomk]

tubaloth:

Thank you for your insights. Like with much of God's word, there are several valid interpretations, all meaningful, all valid, and usually based-upon our current needs at the time.

That was a wonderful passage of scripture you quoted. I love that passage.

I'm not sure what you meant by this:

"But even more you are missing the straight up scripture on this topic of seeking the face of the Lord."

I guess I would have tried to phrase that statement a little more charitably. Something like:

"Have you ever read the following passage about seeking the face of the Lord?"

That way I don't feel like maybe you are implying I missed something, but are just adding to the topic of converstation.

But thank you for your thoughts on this.

Tom

[Guest Malcolm]

Love the arguments. But I think it come down to the imprecisions of language.

A segment of space can be subdivided infinitum in equal parts. How can this be if the space is already determined to be a segment and thus finite? I can show you an equation but as far as explaining I am not sure you'll get it. Not because your intellect is deficient, but the Lord did not make me mighty in writing and in words.

Cheerios!!

[Guest tomk]

Love the arguments. But I think it come down to the imprecisions of language.

A segment of space can be subdivided infinitum in equal parts. How can this be if the space is already determined to be a segment and thus finite? I can show you an equation but as far as explaining I am not sure you'll get it. Not because your intellect is deficient, but the Lord did not make me mighty in writing and in words.

Cheerios!!

Not sure what this has to do with my topic, to be honest.

[Hemidakota]

2 Nephi 32:

When this verse is read in the context of the promised "manifestation" being something we are supposed to experience while still here on earth -- the implications are interesting, to say the least!

Many Saints seem to think that seeing the Savior is something most of us are not meant to experience during mortality. But when this verse is read with an eye of faith, and read as being FOR US while yet mortal -- that is the conclusion I draw.

Have you read the book, "The Second Comforter - Conversing with The Lord Through the Veil' by Denver C. Snuffer? Recommended reading. Here, you will learn, not all members will be a general authority...not all will be apostles...but a member is welcome to receive the same privilege.

Being called a prophet or an Apostle, bring about such a visitation? Isn't the definition 'Apostle' - means to be a literal witness of the Savior? I would think so.

I would asked this question, is there anyone seen the Holy Spirit face-to-face? What would become of this person?

[Guest tomk]

Have you read the book, "The Second Comforter - Conversing with The Lord Through the Veil' by Denver C. Snuffer? Recommended reading. Here, you will learn, not all members will be a general authority...not all will be apostles...but a member is welcome to receive the same privilege.

Being called a prophet or an Apostle, bring about such a visitation? Isn't the definition 'Apostle' - means to be a literal witness of the Savior? I would think so.

I would asked this question, is there anyone seen the Holy Spirit face-to-face? What would become of this person?

I have read that book. In fact, I've read all three of his books! I believe that Snuffer has seen the Savior face-to-face.

You're right -- the problem is not the Lord wanting it to happen. He's promised it to ALL Saints, if they will meet the requirements. But you have to believe it is possible, and seek it.

Yes, you can have an "Apostolic witness" without being one of the 12.

I am not sure what you mean by meeting the Holy Spirit face-to-face. If you are referring to the Holy Ghost -- I don't know of any places in scripture that talk about that. But as far as meeting the Savior face-to-face -- I think after having that happen, your life would continue pretty much the same as normal (as Snuffer indicates). You still have to go to work, pay the bills, raise your children, go to church, honor your covenants, attend the temple -- all that stuff. Except the difference will be that when you bear your testimony and utter the words, "I know He lives" those words will carry a different meaning than those of your counterparts.

There are some fantastic blessings that seem to flow from seeing the Savior face-to-face.

One blessing is the gift of Translation, with its attendant powers:

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

[Hemidakota]

[

I have read that book. In fact, I've read all three of his books! I believe that Snuffer has seen the Savior face-to-face.

You're right -- the problem is not the Lord wanting it to happen. He's promised it to ALL Saints, if they will meet the requirements. But you have to believe it is possible, and seek it.

Prophet Joseph Smith has taught this very subject with the GA and the saints, in striving to obtain that privilege. We should never rest or be satisfied with our own testimony, until we receive such. Nothing is impossible; it is our faith that is lacking, is what I have found.

[

I am not sure what you mean by meeting the Holy Spirit face-to-face. If you are referring to the Holy Ghost -- I don't know of any places in scripture that talk about that. But as far as meeting the Savior face-to-face -- I think after having that happen, your life would continue pretty much the same as normal (as Snuffer indicates). You still have to go to work, pay the bills, raise your children, go to church, honor your covenants, attend the temple -- all that stuff. Except the difference will be that when you bear your testimony and utter the words, "I know He lives" those words will carry a different meaning than those of your counterparts.

When one views the FATHER and the Savior, as indicated, he/she will become a member of the Church of the First Born. One of these vestiges, he/she will have the opportunity to commune in person, not only with the Holy Spirit of Promise but others of that realm.

Not many that I am aware, can described the Holy Spirit personally. For them, it is given the greater mysterious. [D&C 42:61] This is a rare occasion to view this member of the godhead.

In his 27 June 1839 discourse (Richards's Pocket Companion account), Joseph Smith said that when the ancients obtained the blessings of the Second Comforter-"Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn"-the Lord taught them face to face and gave them a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. While the Prophet stated there were things they received that were unlawful to utter (2 Corinthians 12:4 [1-4]; 3 Nephi 17:17; 19:34 [32-34]; 28:12-14; D&C 76:115), yet there was a general theme revealed to all. that theme pertained to the future destiny of man before and during the earth's millennial state. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph, compiled and edited by Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, p.311

I do believe, these individuals are usually visited at least once a year, if not more, in being edified to what mysterious or knowledge that is pertinent to their salvation.

[Guest tomk]

Interesting thoughts.

I went for most of my life in the Church not even being AWARE of this Great Gift that the Lord desires to give us.

[rameumptom]

IMO the key reason for the Temple is a preparation for the time when we see the Lord face to face. The temple teaches us the things we need to do, line upon line, to perfect ourselves: What caused us to personally fall from grace? What must we do to live a Terrestrial life? What must we do to return to God's presence?

I learn more about my current and future relationship with the Lord in the temple, than from anything else. While I have yet to have that personal interview with the Lord, I have often felt his Presence via the Holy Spirit. And the temple is usually the place I feel and am closest to Him.

[Guest tomk]

rameumptom:

Agreed!

Everything in the Temple points to and pre-figures this face-to-face meeting with Christ! He is trying to tell us "I want you to become worthy to meet with me. I want you to qualify for it."

Speaking only for myself -- once the truth of this was revealed unto me (and God had to reveal it to me -- I didn't come to understand this through my own efforts!) I know that this is to be sought after. It is that seeking -- that journey -- that breathes life into the Gospel, and that gives my life meaning. The thought of that renunion. Like with all of the Lord's promised blessings, it won't happen if I don't believe it is meant for me!

Tom

[Elgama]

something that caused me to stop and think was a CS Lewis statement in I think the Screwtape Letters, that the present is moment which we touch eternity - what is behind us is gone, and the furture is yet to happen its the moment that affects our eternity and which we have God by our side. This got me thinking about the Lords Prayer where we ask for the Kingdom to Come on Earth as it is in Heaven - made me realise that the Celestial Kingdom isn't that far away its in the moment. OK I know this isn't very well thought out yet, but I know I was rather dismissed in Relief Society this week when asked why I repented, and I said because I didn't want to cause my Heavenly Father pain and he asked me too, apparently I should be aiming for the Celestial Kingdom but I just want to know God don't need to wait for that.,

-Charley

[WillowTheWhisp]

'he asked me to' - that sounds like an excellent reason. Maybe it isn't in the manual but it's a beautiful reason. :)

[Hemidakota]

something that caused me to stop and think was a CS Lewis statement in I think the Screwtape Letters, that the present is moment which we touch eternity - what is behind us is gone, and the furture is yet to happen its the moment that affects our eternity and which we have God by our side. This got me thinking about the Lords Prayer where we ask for the Kingdom to Come on Earth as it is in Heaven - made me realise that the Celestial Kingdom isn't that far away its in the moment. OK I know this isn't very well thought out yet, but I know I was rather dismissed in Relief Society this week when asked why I repented, and I said because I didn't want to cause my Heavenly Father pain and he asked me too, apparently I should be aiming for the Celestial Kingdom but I just want to know God don't need to wait for that.,

-Charley

I don't know why you should be dismissed over that answer. What is the greater sin? The sin itself or the sin not repented? It does pains me to sin at anytime as it does too many. Sincere repentance does bring tears and vexation to the souls of the righteous.

Could the FATHER and the Savior weep over us? Absolutely.

Though, the 'veil' is very thin in this mortality.

[Guest tomk]

NOTE: This post just constitutes more research on the subject at hand, and is not a response to previous posts.

One remarkable truth of the restored gospel is that the heavens are not sealed, that God still speaks to His children and reveals His will to them. And one amazing aspect of that knowledge is that God will reveal Himself to individuals who meet certain prerequisites. The scriptures record that many ancient prophets saw God, and the present dispensation was opened by a vision in which God and Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove. But several places in the Doctrine and Covenants, including section 67, teach that this privilege is not reserved for prophets alone but for anyone willing to pay the price required in personal righteousness (see D&C 50:45–46; 88:68–69; 93:1; 130:3).

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “after a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses. . . .

“Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions—Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.” (Teachings, pp. 150–51.)

Such a privilege does not come easily. A high level of righteousness and commitment must be demonstrated in the life of an individual before God will appear to him, and yet step by step a person can reach that degree. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught how this growth can occur: “We consider that God has created man with a mind capable of instruction, and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the heed and diligence given to the light communicated from heaven to the intellect; and that the nearer man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views, and the greater his enjoyments, till he has overcome the evils of his life and lost every desire for sin; and like the ancients, arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker and is caught up to dwell with Him. But we consider that this is a station to which no man ever arrived in a moment: he must have been instructed in the government and laws of that kingdom by proper degrees, until his mind is capable in some measure of comprehending the propriety, justice, equality, and consistency of the same.” (Teachings, p. 51.)

taken from:

D&C Institute 61-70

[MorningStar]

Very interesting post, Tom! Thank you!

[Hemidakota]

Tom, are you referring to the process of sanctification?

[Guest tomk]

Tom, are you referring to the process of sanctification?

Yes.

[jjrogers]

just wanted to post that I really enjoyed reading this thread.

[Elgama]

'he asked me to' - that sounds like an excellent reason. Maybe it isn't in the manual but it's a beautiful reason. :)

lol I am not sure why but everything went dead and the teacher moved on very quickly, I was trying to make the point that to me the Celestial Kingdom is too far away to be important to me what is important is my day to day relationship with my Heavenly Father when we don't repent things get in the way. It wasn't my intention to show anyone up or make them feel bad its just the way I see it - whats the point in the Celestial Kingdom if you don't want to be with your Heavenly Father now?

-Charley

[lilered]

Tomk

Thx. for a very intersting thread.

Your reference; " then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses. . . .

This process is brought about as we learn "line up line, precept upon precept". It will only happen when we have mastered them and have withstood the test.

[Hemidakota]

The Saints should always understand when we finally commit our mortal life to God, in order to gain this promise; the Holy Ghost does not reveal the FATHER unto that person. It is not His divine purpose. The Holy Ghost will only reveal the Second Comforter – or – Jesus the Christ. It is the Second Comforter or Jesus Christ reveals the FATHER unto them who are considered ‘friends’; through obedient and faithfulness.

Not using the prophet as a exemplar role model [personage visitation], Elder Alvin R. Dyer, in his book, ‘Who Am I’, reveals the step to reach this condition level:

In further explanation of the full blessings to be conferred upon those who receive the second Comforter, the Lord said:

Man may, therefore, in progressive steps, by adjustment and obedience, first to one law of the gospel plan and then to another, be led back to the presence of God. The innate light of intelligence which all men possess can lead to a desire for truth and righteousness which is attended by the convincing power and influence of the Holy Ghost. When this is followed by obedience to the law of baptism, preceded by faith and repentance, and followed by the laying on of hands by authorized priesthood authority, which power is functional through a gift of the Holy Ghost, man also receives this gift which reveals the Son of God to him. For no man can know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Redeemer without this gift. This is administered by the first Comforter. Through continued obedience, man comes to know God the Father through the Spirit and Person of the Son who is the Christ and the second Comforter.

Regards to the prophet's grove visitation and applying this to one who is seeking the same, would demand a level faith, which exceeds the norm.

No doubt, humility and being thankful is two keys that are needed on a daily basis.

[Guest tomk]

Tomk

Thx. for a very intersting thread.

Your reference; " then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses. . . .

This process is brought about as we learn "line up line, precept upon precept". It will only happen when we have mastered them and have withstood the test.

Thank you.