View of the Hebrews

[Carborendum]

I wanted to talk about View of the Hebrews.  If I had not been told that it was supposedly the "source material" of The Book of Mormon, I'd have simply categorized it as something in the same section of the library.

I was told that Fawn Brodie found 18 points of comparison that would "hardly leave a case for mere coincidence."  So, I looked up what she thought were such blindingly clear similarities.  I was only able to find 16.  So, I have no idea what these additional phantom points were supposed to be.  But I'll go through the 16 I could find.  Mind you, I have barely begun reading the actual book.

My conclusions/commentary are not to say that Joseph NEVER had access to the book before the BoM was published.  There are way too many unknowns to definitively prove that.  But I am pointing out that the parallels are weak and in no way require Joseph to have had access to Hebrews in order to provide us with the Book of Mormon.

• Origins of the Native Americans was that they were of the Lost Tribes of Israel. OK.  That's the basic premise. 
  • While there is nothing explicit in Ethan Smith's tale, it seemed that this was a minority belief that was being spread around the US during that era.  So, at best, they both took from the same premise that had been floating around.
  • They also make additional mention about them having to migrate from Asia to the Americas. Duh.  If they came from there (part of the premise) and they wound up here, then that's called a migration, isn't it?
• Religious motivation for the migration
  • It's about the lost tribes of Israel.  Duh.  It just follows the premise.
• The people divide into tribes.
  • This is such a common trope and phenomenon in real life that it isn't anything to even blink about.
• The two tribes are a civilized vs uncivilized group.
  • Lord of the Flies.  Common trope.  The both must have had a copy of Lord of the Flies.  I'm sure of it  
• Prophetic teachings.
  • Follows premise. 
• Government changes from a monarchy to a republic.
  • Natural evolution of SO MANY nations.
• Emphasis on morality and ethics.
  • In a religious book?  Say it ain't so.
• Importance of family.
  • I'm not so sure the BoM does.  It certainly doesn't denigrate it.  But "special emphasis"?  I don't think so.  1800s America had strong emphasis on family.  Nothing to write home about.  I'll have to report back when I read View of the Hebrews.
• The stories contain many miracles.
  • Really?  Goes with premise.
• Stories from Ancient records.
  • Goes with premise.
  • Common trope.
• Promised land.
  • Goes with premise.
• Connection to Old Testament.
  • No kidding.  Goes with premise.
• Prophets deliver messages from God to the people.
  • And what, exactly, are prophets supposed to do?
• Future Restoration and Gathering of the scattered tribes.
  • This is a Biblical prophecy.  Duh.

So, after all is said and done, the only real similarity I see is that they both produced a book about the Lost Tribes of Israel becoming the Native Americans.

Edited January 8 by Carborendum

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I wanted to talk about View of the Hebrews.  If I had not been told that it was supposedly the "source material" of The Book of Mormon, I'd have simply categorized it as something in the same section of the library.

I was told that Fawn Brodie found 18 points of comparison that would "hardly leave a case for mere coincidence."  So, I looked up what she thought were such blindingly clear similarities.  I was only able to find 16.  So, I have no idea what these additional phantom points were supposed to be.  But I'll go through the 16 I could find.  Mind you, I have barely begun reading the actual book.

My conclusions/commentary are not to say that Joseph NEVER had access to the book before the BoM was published.  There are way too many unknowns to definitively prove that.  But I am pointing out that the parallels are weak and in no way require Joseph to have had access to Hebrews in order to provide us with the Book of Mormon.

• Origins of the Native Americans was that they were of the Lost Tribes of Israel. OK.  That's the basic premise. 
  • While there is nothing explicit in Ethan Smith's tale, it seemed that this was a minority belief that was being spread around the US during that era.  So, at best, they both took from the same premise that had been floating around.
  • They also make additional details about them having to migrate from Europe to the Americas. Duh.  If they came from there (part of the premise) and they wound up here, then that's called a migration, isn't it?
• Religious motivation for the migration
  • It's about the lost tribes of Israel.  Duh.  It just follows the premise.
• The people divide into tribes.
  • This is such a common trope and phenomenon in real life that it isn't anything to even blink about.
• The two tribes are a civilized vs uncivilized group.
  • Lord of the Flies.  Common trope.  The both must have had a copy of Lord of the Flies.  I'm sure of it  
• Prophetic teachings.
  • Follows premise. 
• Government changes from a monarchy to a republic.
  • Natural evolution of SO MANY nations.

• Emphasis on morality and ethics.
  • In a religious book?  Say it ain't so.
• Importance of family.
  • I'm not so sure the BoM does.  It certainly doesn't denigrate it.  But "special emphasis"?  I don't think so.  1800s America had strong emphasis on family.  Nothing to write home about.  I'll have to report back when I read View of the Hebrews.
• The stories contain many miracles.
  • Really?  Goes with premise.
• Stories from Ancient records.
  • Goes with premise.
  • Common trope.
• Promised land.
  • Goes with premise.
• Connection to Old Testament.
  • No kidding.  Goes with premise.
• Prophets deliver messages from God to the people.
  • And what, exactly, are prophets supposed to do?
• Future Restoration and Gathering of the scattered tribes.
  • This is a Biblical prophecy.  Duh.

So, after all is said and done, the only real similarity I see is that they both produced a book about the Lost Tribes of Israel becoming the Native Americans.

Here is a good treatment of the subject: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/View_of_the_Hebrews_theory_of_Book_of_Mormon_authorship

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I wanted to talk about View of the Hebrews.  If I had not been told that it was supposedly the "source material" of The Book of Mormon, I'd have simply categorized it as something in the same section of the library.

I was told that Fawn Brodie found 18 points of comparison that would "hardly leave a case for mere coincidence."  So, I looked up what she thought were such blindingly clear similarities.  I was only able to find 16.  So, I have no idea what these additional phantom points were supposed to be.  But I'll go through the 16 I could find.  Mind you, I have barely begun reading the actual book.

My conclusions/commentary are not to say that Joseph NEVER had access to the book before the BoM was published.  There are way too many unknowns to definitively prove that.  But I am pointing out that the parallels are weak and in no way require Joseph to have had access to Hebrews in order to provide us with the Book of Mormon.

• Origins of the Native Americans was that they were of the Lost Tribes of Israel. OK.  That's the basic premise. 
  • While there is nothing explicit in Ethan Smith's tale, it seemed that this was a minority belief that was being spread around the US during that era.  So, at best, they both took from the same premise that had been floating around.
  • They also make additional details about them having to migrate from Europe to the Americas. Duh.  If they came from there (part of the premise) and they wound up here, then that's called a migration, isn't it?
• Religious motivation for the migration
  • It's about the lost tribes of Israel.  Duh.  It just follows the premise.
• The people divide into tribes.
  • This is such a common trope and phenomenon in real life that it isn't anything to even blink about.
• The two tribes are a civilized vs uncivilized group.
  • Lord of the Flies.  Common trope.  The both must have had a copy of Lord of the Flies.  I'm sure of it  
• Prophetic teachings.
  • Follows premise. 
• Government changes from a monarchy to a republic.
  • Natural evolution of SO MANY nations.

• Emphasis on morality and ethics.
  • In a religious book?  Say it ain't so.
• Importance of family.
  • I'm not so sure the BoM does.  It certainly doesn't denigrate it.  But "special emphasis"?  I don't think so.  1800s America had strong emphasis on family.  Nothing to write home about.  I'll have to report back when I read View of the Hebrews.
• The stories contain many miracles.
  • Really?  Goes with premise.
• Stories from Ancient records.
  • Goes with premise.
  • Common trope.
• Promised land.
  • Goes with premise.
• Connection to Old Testament.
  • No kidding.  Goes with premise.
• Prophets deliver messages from God to the people.
  • And what, exactly, are prophets supposed to do?
• Future Restoration and Gathering of the scattered tribes.
  • This is a Biblical prophecy.  Duh.

So, after all is said and done, the only real similarity I see is that they both produced a book about the Lost Tribes of Israel becoming the Native Americans.

I quickly lose patience with such individuals, though my own impatience is itself a type of pettiness. God suffers (allows, tolerates) such individuals and their twisted and self-serving views, so why should I bristle at such? Just teaching my own children and those I love not to fall victim to such silly and trivially false teachings should suffice. No teeth-gritting needed.

[Carborendum]

This reminds me of the claim that Hamlet and The Lion King were the same story.

The brother to the king kills the king.  The son/heir is sent on a journey.  The uncle takes the throne.  The son comes back and kills the uncle.

Wow... They're practically identical.

[Ironhold]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This reminds me of the claim that Hamlet and The Lion King were the same story.

The brother to the king kills the king.  The son/heir is sent on a journey.  The uncle takes the throne.  The son comes back and kills the uncle.

Wow... They're practically identical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimba_the_White_Lion_(TV_series)

There's a long-running conspiracy theory which holds that Disney was intending to create an adaptation of Japanese franchise "Kimba The White Lion" since the English dub of the anime was in the public domain in the United States, only to learn that someone was trying to obtain a new copyright for a new English dub, at which point they hastily reworked their plans into the legally distinct Lion King. 

Evidence for this theory includes early production artwork that shows Simba as white in color, a TV Guide entry that wrongly refers to the film as "The Jungle Emperor" (an alternate name for Kimba), and the various parallels between the film and various previous entries in the Kimba franchise. 

[Carborendum]

One more thing is the "unparallels."  There are some things that were simply different.  Even the migration that is cited as a parallel has a glaringly obvious difference.  VoH says they came across the Bering Strait.  BoM says boats.  This is an important distinction.

The Bering Strait hypothesis has been the accepted theory for centuries.  Nathan Smith was not the first to posit such a migration.  But he did declare that the migration was by the lost tribes of Israel.  Well, that creates a problem.

Each year the Strait freezes over and reaches temperatures around -10F to -20F.  At its narrowest point, it is over 50 miles.  Add to that the distance on terra firma that is also frozen at the same temperatures during that time of the year.  Can people really travel that far in those temperatures on foot?

When you look at the practicalities with technology at the time of the BoM, it boggles the imagination that people would think such a journey would be possible.  But the BoM has a physically/scientifically plausible method of transportation. 

The one difficulty was that ship construction was not dependable back then.  They leaked notoriously.  So, only short (by comparison) voyages were possible.  So Nephi was taught to build it after a manner unknown to man.  It is possible that leak mitigation was at least one methodology that he was taught.

So, while some thematic elements are common, the details are different in just the right ways for the right points.  There were several other claims that Nathan Smith made in VoH that were not found in the BoM.  Those differences were found to be wrong or misleading.