Hamas Terrorist Admits to Using Hospitals as Shields

[Carborendum]

 

[Carborendum]

Here's another one:

 

[Carborendum]

 

[Carborendum]

 

[NeuroTypical]

I've watched this argument 20 years ago: 

1. "Israel are the bad guys because they kill innocent Palestinians and destroy their homes and buildings."
2. "No, the terrorists are the bad guys because they surround themselves with innocent Palestinians as they conduct terrorist operations against Israel.  Israelies are the good guys because they do everything they can to avoid loss of innocent life, including notifying people of upcoming operations.  This allows the terrorists to escape, but it also protects innocent life."
3. [The first person either refuses to acknowledge the facts, or changes the subject to criticize settlements or Israel's right to exist or whatever, or even mounts an unwitting defense of the terrorist's actions.]

I'm sad at all the death that started on J6.  I'm hopeful that the needle will finally move, and the world will see the moral and just value of #2, and give up #3.   A similar thing needed to happen with the axis powers in WWII.  The Nazi government and it's fascist powers in Italy needed to be soundly defeated and all of it's defenders killed.  When it collapsed and the perpetrators of the vile ideology scattered like rats, it kicked off 80 years of pursuing them across the world to bring them to justice and execute them.  The same needs to happen with Hamas and Hezbollah and Houthis and Iran.

It's hard to think that a good solution involves utterly destroying everyone that thinks differently than you on a certain topic.  It's chilling to think that the BoM tells a handful of stories of the righteous folks doing exactly that.  It's difficult for me to come to grips that God picks this outcome on certain occasions, with the most pressing example being the coming end of days when the wicked shall burn as stubble, and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess - because everyone else will have been destroyed.

I spent 20 years looking for an alternative.  A way to change #3 without bloodshed.  But it never came.  We were so close on J5.  The Abraham accords were working.  The week before J6, the first Israeli diplomat ever had just flown to Saudi Arabia to discuss some low level thing about agricultural cooperation.  It's how peace grows.  But then the Palestinian government did what it has always done - be a willing pawn in the game of those who want to destroy Israel.  

There's no gladness or happiness to be had, but I respect Israel for saying enough.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I've watched this argument 20 years ago: 

1. "Israel are the bad guys because they kill innocent Palestinians and destroy their homes and buildings."
2. "No, the terrorists are the bad guys because they surround themselves with innocent Palestinians as they conduct terrorist operations against Israel.  Israelies are the good guys because they do everything they can to avoid loss of innocent life, including notifying people of upcoming operations.  This allows the terrorists to escape, but it also protects innocent life."
3. [The first person either refuses to acknowledge the facts, or changes the subject to criticize settlements or Israel's right to exist or whatever, or even mounts an unwitting defense of the terrorist's actions.]

I'm sad at all the death that started on J6.  I'm hopeful that the needle will finally move, and the world will see the moral and just value of #2, and give up #3.   A similar thing needed to happen with the axis powers in WWII.  The Nazi government and it's fascist powers in Italy needed to be soundly defeated and all of it's defenders killed.  When it collapsed and the perpetrators of the vile ideology scattered like rats, it kicked off 80 years of pursuing them across the world to bring them to justice and execute them.  The same needs to happen with Hamas and Hezbollah and Houthis and Iran.

It's hard to think that a good solution involves utterly destroying everyone that thinks differently than you on a certain topic.  It's chilling to think that the BoM tells a handful of stories of the righteous folks doing exactly that.  It's difficult for me to come to grips that God picks this outcome on certain occasions, with the most pressing example being the coming end of days when the wicked shall burn as stubble, and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess - because everyone else will have been destroyed.

I spent 20 years looking for an alternative.  A way to change #3 without bloodshed.  But it never came.  We were so close on J5.  The Abraham accords were working.  The week before J6, the first Israeli diplomat ever had just flown to Saudi Arabia to discuss some low level thing about agricultural cooperation.  It's how peace grows.  But then the Palestinian government did what it has always done - be a willing pawn in the game of those who want to destroy Israel.  

There's no gladness or happiness to be had, but I respect Israel for saying enough.

I was in the military (army) during the Vietnam conflict.  It was not a war because our congress never declared it so.  I was a friend of a good LDS fellow that suffered nightmares and other problems because he shot and killed a 5 year old boy that was rigged with deadly explosives running towards him and others.  We call this PTSD and he was never able to reconcile this and other experiences he had in Vietnam.  Eventually he took his own life.

I have known many that experienced combat.  I do not know anyone that personally benefited from the experience of killing – even in a time of war.

There is a terrible price of war.  Even those heroes that win for country pay a price no person should experience.  They are especially vulnerable to criticism.  The better person the more vulnerable they are.

Growing up in my generation – few had respect for those in the military.  I have absolutely no respect for those that criticize anyone that has experienced orders to put their own life on the line in combat that have no military experience. 

There is no reason to demonize Israel or Palestine.  Those caught in the rigors of war conflict should be forgiven.  But when necessary – those caught in the rigors of war need to be encouraged to stop the spreading death – especially if they find any joy or elation in it.   Sometimes extreme measures are necessary to stop the spreading of death (thought it may appear to be spreading death as well).  Regardless no one will benefit.  I am convinced that Satan loves war – especially because of how it effects the righteous.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

have known many that experienced combat.  I do not know anyone that personally benefited from the experience of killing – even in a time of war.

Usually the guys taking glee in how many people they’ve killed in war are either lying or have serious psychological problems. 

[zil2]

28 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Usually the guys taking glee in how many people they’ve killed in war are either lying or have serious psychological problems. 

Yeah, well, that's Hamas.

[LDSGator]

20 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Yeah, well, that's Hamas.

Yeah, well, no argument there. 

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

There is no reason to demonize Israel or Palestine.  Those caught in the rigors of war conflict should be forgiven.

While I absolutely agree, I would also claim that it is possible to both forgive someone and fully prosecute them for their crimes.  Even if the sentence is death.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

While I absolutely agree, I would also claim that it is possible to both forgive someone and fully prosecute them for their crimes.  Even if the sentence is death.

I believe that it is possible to both forgive and demand the full extent of justice.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

While I absolutely agree, I would also claim that it is possible to both forgive someone and fully prosecute them for their crimes.  Even if the sentence is death.

Perhaps you can help me remember something:

I remember a story about a man who struggled growing up because his father was murdered when he (the son) was young. But he grew up, went to school, got married, had kids...

He had listened to a talk on forgiveness, and something pricked him to believe that he needed to forgive the murderer.

It so happened that while on a business trip (my memory may be foggy here, I think I heard this 30 of 40 years ago) he realized that the prison where the murderer was serving his life sentence was only a little bit out of the way from his designated journey.

He pulled up to the prison and spoke to an official there.  He said that he had come to offer forgiveness to the man who murdered his father.  IIRC, the official was suspicious that he was really there to kill the man or at least rough him up.  But after some assurances, he was allowed to meet with the man.

They spoke for a while.  He finally told him,"You will need to continue to live in this prison and serve your sentence for what you've done, just as I will have to live my life with the consequences of not having a father as I grew up.  But (he addressed him by name) I want you to know that I forgive you with all my heart."

The prisoner began to cry, as did the visitor. (I know this would violate protocol. But I recall the narrator saying that they hugged???  I could be mistaken.)

As he drove away, he realized that it was a wonderful thing when hatred, bitterness, and anger leave your heart, and forgiveness comes in.

Edited January 8 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

Quote

I knew of two soldiers on a fierce battlefront, when during a temporary armistice in the war, one young man crossed the battle line and asked his antagonist, “Is there a Mormon elder in your lines?”

The other answered, “Yes, I am a Mormon.”

He then asked, “Would you come behind our trench lines and help me administer to and bless a wounded buddy?” Across the “no-man’s land” they walked together, these two men, former enemies. One anointed and the other sealed the anointing, and the wounded chap was blessed. A great peace entered their souls. The other man returned to his front lines to his duty, and he also had a new feeling of peace.

Of course, we do not hold all men responsible for what individuals do. We learn to forgive.

 -- The Power of Forgiveness

[NeuroTypical]

37 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Perhaps you can help me remember something:

I remember a story about a man who struggled growing up because his father was murdered when he (the son) was young. But he grew up, went to school, got married, had kids...

I haven't heard that story, but there are others.

Like the Amish community from this article: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2007/05/the-healing-power-of-forgiveness?lang=eng#p27

Quote

A 32-year-old milk truck driver lived with his family in their Nickel Mines community. He was not Amish, but his pickup route took him to many Amish dairy farms, where he became known as the quiet milkman. Last October he suddenly lost all reason and control. In his tormented mind he blamed God for the death of his first child and some unsubstantiated memories. He stormed into the Amish school without any provocation, released the boys and adults, and tied up the 10 girls. He shot the girls, killing five and wounding five. Then he took his own life.

This shocking violence caused great anguish among the Amish but no anger. There was hurt but no hate. Their forgiveness was immediate. Collectively they began to reach out to the milkman’s suffering family. As the milkman’s family gathered in his home the day after the shootings, an Amish neighbor came over, wrapped his arms around the father of the dead gunman, and said, “We will forgive you.”¹ Amish leaders visited the milkman’s wife and children to extend their sympathy, their forgiveness, their help, and their love. About half of the mourners at the milkman’s funeral were Amish. In turn, the Amish invited the milkman’s family to attend the funeral services of the girls who had been killed. A remarkable peace settled on the Amish as their faith sustained them during this crisis.

One local resident very eloquently summed up the aftermath of this tragedy when he said, “We were all speaking the same language, and not just English, but a language of caring, a language of community, [and] a language of service. And, yes, a language of forgiveness.”² It was an amazing outpouring of their complete faith in the Lord’s teachings in the Sermon on the Mount: “Do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.”³

The family of the milkman who killed the five girls released the following statement to the public:

“To our Amish friends, neighbors, and local community:

“Our family wants each of you to know that we are overwhelmed by the forgiveness, grace, and mercy that you’ve extended to us. Your love for our family has helped to provide the healing we so desperately need. The prayers, flowers, cards, and gifts you’ve given have touched our hearts in a way no words can describe. Your compassion has reached beyond our family, beyond our community, and is changing our world, and for this we sincerely thank you.

“Please know that our hearts have been broken by all that has happened. We are filled with sorrow for all of our Amish neighbors whom we have loved and continue to love. We know that there are many hard days ahead for all the families who lost loved ones, and so we will continue to put our hope and trust in the God of all comfort, as we all seek to rebuild our lives.”

 

Or this encounter:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wifYHbVl9c

There are other similar stories.    Powerful stuff.