Mary Whitmer

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Is anyone also bothered that the story of “Moroni” showing the plates to Mary is her grandson’s account? She said thru her entire life that the man was named “brother Nephi.” She never said it was Moroni.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/another-account-of-mary-whitmers-viewing-of-the-golden-plates/

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Is anyone also bothered that the story of “Moroni” showing the plates to Mary is her grandson’s account? She said thru her entire life that the man was named “brother Nephi.” She never said it was Moroni.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/another-account-of-mary-whitmers-viewing-of-the-golden-plates/

Since John puts this observation in parentheses, it is clearly his (and the others') interpretation that the angel was Moroni and not Brother Nephi. Moroni could still have the plates in charge and allow other angels (i.e., Brother Nephi, perhaps "the" Nephi or one of the three translated Nephite disciples?) to present them to others. There are a couple of reasons I can think of for not using Mary's designation, but the basic story remains the same despite other minor discrepancies not considered significant.

[laronius]

You aren't comparing Mary's account to her grandson's account, you are comparing her grandson's account to her granddaughter's account, both two generations removed. I don't know why Moroni is given preference over Nephi but even the granddaughter seems to assume it was Moroni.

It wouldn't surprise me if the angel never actually stated his name but over time in the story telling a name was assigned.

[Just_A_Guy]

I was recently watching a podcast with Don Bradley (sorry, I’ve forgotten the link) where he mentioned in passing that the small plates may not have been physically attached to Mormon’s/Moroni’s record.  Bradley also suggests that after the 116 pages fiasco, Joseph and Emma (and then Oliver) continued where Joseph and Martin Harris had left off; and finished through to the end of Moroni before leaving Emma’s parents’ farm in Harmony.

If both of those are true, then Joseph doesn’t actually need Mormon’s plates anymore when he leaves Harmony; all he’s going to need are the detached, small plates of Nephi.  And there’s something very poetic to me about the possibility that Nephi, himself a resurrected being, had a council with Moroni and said “my umpteen- great- great grandson, you’ve done so well taking care of your part of the record.  Now let me take care of my part of the record.”  Maybe it was Nephi himself who transported his own small plates from Harmony to Fayette, and later showed them to Mary Whitmer.

 

Edited February 25 by Just_A_Guy

[DurangoUT01]

17 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I was recently watching a podcast with Don Bradley (sorry, I’ve forgotten the link) where he mentioned in passing that the small plates may not have been physically attached to Mormon’s/Moroni’s record.  Bradley also suggests that after the 116 pages fiasco, Joseph and Emma (and then Oliver) continued where Joseph and Martin Harris had left off; and finished through to the end of Moroni before leaving Emma’s parents’ farm in Harmony.

If both of those are true, then Joseph doesn’t actually need Mormon’s plates anymore when he leaves Harmony; all he’s going to need are the detached, small plates of Nephi.  And there’s something very poetic to me about the possibility that Nephi, himself a resurrected being, had a council with Moroni and said “my umpteen- great- great grandson, you’ve done so well taking care of your part of the record.  Now let me take care of my part of the record.”  Maybe it was Nephi himself who transported his own small plates from Harmony to Fayette, and later showed them to Mary Whitmer.

 

That’s an interesting thought.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

On 2/23/2025 at 10:26 AM, CV75 said:

Since John puts this observation in parentheses, it is clearly his (and the others') interpretation that the angel was Moroni and not Brother Nephi. Moroni could still have the plates in charge and allow other angels (i.e., Brother Nephi, perhaps "the" Nephi or one of the three translated Nephite disciples?) to present them to others. There are a couple of reasons I can think of for not using Mary's designation, but the basic story remains the same despite other minor discrepancies not considered significant.

It was not one of the three:

4 Nephi 1:19 And it came to pass that Nephi, he that kept this last record, (and he kept it upon the plates of Nephi) died...

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

John C. Whitmer’s 1878 account of this story is third party hearsay. I am beginning to feel that it was never even told by Mary until well after her excommunication in 1838, if ever. Not only this, her son David once said he wanted to bathe his hands in the blood of Joseph Smith and I believe he made up the story of Joseph using the stone in the hat to translate. He was not one of the scribes of the translation, so how would he have known how Joseph did it? The descendants of Mary could have made up anything they wanted. If someone has older, more reliable sources for this story of "brother Nephi" or "Angle Moroni," then I would love to see them.