I Am Resigning From The Church

[Guest Unorthodox]

bye

[Ray]

75% is a scary figure, because I at least hope that the majority of members have a testimony. But even if all LDS have a testimony, I suppose 75% of the world in general could still be without a testimony, because LDS only make up a small percentage of world’s population. But still, since there are people in other religions who have a testimony about some truths, the idea that 75% of the world doesn’t even know that God lives, or that certain things are true, is scary. After all, you don’t need to be LDS to know that Jesus is the Christ, and you don’t need to be LDS to know that the Bible is inspired scripture, because you can still gain a testimony of those things without being LDS.

Anyway, I can now agree with that idea, if that’s what Tr2 meant, because without a testimony, people really don’t know the truth, because they haven’t experienced the power of Faith for themselves.

Perhaps that’s the reason for a testimony meeting once a month… to emphasize the idea that having a testimony is important?

[Guest Unorthodox]

bye

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 11 2004, 12:15 PM

I think most people will say they have faith in God

Yes, most people do say that. However if you speak to most people about their faith in God you will find that they have faith in the God that they have been told about, having no experience of their own.

I cannot count the number of mormons who have faith in Joseph Smith's God, and not their own. The same goes for those who follow Billy Graham, Benny Hinn, the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, etc. They follow a god that another person has met. Only in religious circles are people this silly.

Unless you have examples from your own life that have brought you to where you are, you are believing in somebody else's God. The Nicene creed doesn't incidate that you follow God, nor does the LDS testimony because both are simply statements of belief that require no experiential belief in God to say.

Would you marry somebody that you had no experience in, but believes was real? Of course not, you commit to those that you have real life experience with. I'd say this probably defines at least 75% of all those in religious circles, and that is a generous figure. It's probably higher.

Good post Tr2....

Once again....I believe in your God, same as most all the other LDS on this board. God IS God. His is your's mine and ours.

Sorry if you just don't see it that way.

But it WAS a good post! :)

[Ray]

Well, again, after some more thought, I still don’t think that is true, even if that’s what Tr2 meant. I believe the majority of the world’s population does have faith in God, it’s just that the majority of people in the world don’t have a testimony regarding everything that has been revealed about Him. Even if you only have faith to know that there is a supreme being, and that’s all you know, you can still have faith in God. And I’m speaking about a knowledge that has been conveyed to your heart by an assurance given from Him, and not simply a belief in what other people say is true.

[Guest Unorthodox]

bye

[Tr2]

Well I don't know the percentage of LDS who do not have a "true" testimony, and I doubt TR2 knows that either.

Exact figures? Of course not, because it is subjective. I always compare faiths to marriages. And there are so many ways that a person changes in a marriage. Wheras most religious people seem to live the same things over and over again. The best way to put it (ex for a person who has been xxx for 15 years), is they have been xxx for one year 15 times. Faith is supposed to be a relational thing. People change in relationships. Or at least I do. My marriage gets better every year because my wife and I learn more about each other, we learn new things that we like to do together. Our relationship ius very healthy because we have never had the same marriage for two anniversaries. I love my wife more and more each day and am determined to never allow it to plateau or get comfortable in the motions. Since the bible describes a relationship with God as a bride-groom relationship, faith should be the same.

I don't get upset when somebody bashes my marriage relationship because it is secure(bashing my wife is another thing that will get your face kicked). I see so many religious people get so upset when others bash their faith. If what you have is real than what others say shouldn't bother you. if criticism makes your faith stronger, than you are in a faith based out of some kind of rebellion or need to be different. I don't take people's word when it comes to faith because people are good liars. Just look at people's behavior. I know the religious masks because I've worn many of them.

I've seen and heard the LDS testimony many times and for the most part I don't buy it. People are saying what they believe, not giving their life experiences. A testimony, by definition, is what? It is your experiences, not what you believe to be true. if you take the stand in a trial are you allowed to say what you believe to be true or do you have to tell your experiences (ie what you saw, what you heard, what you lived)? Some people want to have something so bad that they will settle for simply having an opinion that lacks any of their own experience. I believe we are living in a time where people are more hungry for spirituality than ever before and human beings seem to always do things the quick way and not the proper way.

A quick way that I have used to single out the people that I am referring to, is to see who objects to this line of thinking. I think people object because they don't like their ideals to be messed around with, wheras the people who really want to go after God will do whatever it takes.

[Guest Unorthodox]

bye

[Ray]

I've seen and heard the LDS testimony many times and for the most part I don't buy it.

Exactly what is it that you don’t “buy”? That some LDS have had the experience of receiving an assurance of truth?

Are you calling me a liar?

Do you think you’ll upset me simply because you won’t believe me? Well, not except for the fact that you’re calling me a liar, but I really don’t expect you to believe what I say simply because I said so either. How would you know whether or not I was telling the truth anyway? You haven’t experienced what I have experienced, so you can’t know what I know.

Do you think the fact that you don’t “buy” it makes any difference regarding whether or not I have received or am continuing to receive this assurance? Well, whether you believe me or not, I have still experienced what I have experienced.

If you’ll take a good close look at what I am saying, you should see that I agree with your line of thinking in your last post. But what I think you fail to see is that I am testifying about what I have experienced and you are responding by calling me a liar. Or at least it appears that way. That doesn’t upset my testimony, but it does upset me, a little, because I don’t appreciate somebody attacking my integrity, especially when that someone has no way of knowing what I have experienced. But then again, a testimony from someone who would respond the way that you are responding to me doesn’t mean a whole lot to me either.

[Guest Unorthodox]

bye

[Ray]

Heh, I know I’m not a liar. I was just taken aback a little because I thought he was calling me a liar.

If he only meant that he doesn’t believe me, with no implications regarding my character, then I have no problem with that at all. I don’t expect anybody to believe what I say simply because I said it. But at the same time, people should be careful about how they respond to the testimonies of other people. If someone doesn’t believe someone else, there should be a good reason for it, otherwise they should simply say they don’t know whether or not that someone has spoken the truth while giving their testimony some consideration.

And btw, the only good reason to not believe somebody is because you know better, at which point you should share what you know and how you came to know it.

[Guest Unorthodox]

bye

[Faerie]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 11 2004, 04:34 PM

Well I don't know the percentage of LDS who do not have a "true" testimony, and I doubt TR2 knows that either.

Exact figures? Of course not, because it is subjective. I always compare faiths to marriages. And there are so many ways that a person changes in a marriage. Wheras most religious people seem to live the same things over and over again. The best way to put it (ex for a person who has been xxx for 15 years), is they have been xxx for one year 15 times. Faith is supposed to be a relational thing. People change in relationships. Or at least I do. My marriage gets better every year because my wife and I learn more about each other, we learn new things that we like to do together. Our relationship ius very healthy because we have never had the same marriage for two anniversaries. I love my wife more and more each day and am determined to never allow it to plateau or get comfortable in the motions. Since the bible describes a relationship with God as a bride-groom relationship, faith should be the same.

I don't get upset when somebody bashes my marriage relationship because it is secure(bashing my wife is another thing that will get your face kicked). I see so many religious people get so upset when others bash their faith. If what you have is real than what others say shouldn't bother you. if criticism makes your faith stronger, than you are in a faith based out of some kind of rebellion or need to be different. I don't take people's word when it comes to faith because people are good liars. Just look at people's behavior. I know the religious masks because I've worn many of them.

I've seen and heard the LDS testimony many times and for the most part I don't buy it. People are saying what they believe, not giving their life experiences. A testimony, by definition, is what? It is your experiences, not what you believe to be true. if you take the stand in a trial are you allowed to say what you believe to be true or do you have to tell your experiences (ie what you saw, what you heard, what you lived)? Some people want to have something so bad that they will settle for simply having an opinion that lacks any of their own experience. I believe we are living in a time where people are more hungry for spirituality than ever before and human beings seem to always do things the quick way and not the proper way.

A quick way that I have used to single out the people that I am referring to, is to see who objects to this line of thinking. I think people object because they don't like their ideals to be messed around with, wheras the people who really want to go after God will do whatever it takes.

ok trident, whatever you started taking i like it...lol

I can see your point and I DO see this happening in many people..LDS and non...

That's why when I tell my story, I tell the WHY behind it..sure I can spout off the Primary testimony...but it's just not the same...

Here is an example of what my testimony sharing is like in church...

Last Sunday I stood and bore my testimony. I started out by stating that I had FINALLY gained a testimony of prayer. My ward knows of the struggles I've gone through to get pregnant. We have a very close ward, a very sincere ward and I am very lucky and thankful that we have such good members..

i digress

I bore testimony that I know that God doesn't always answer our prayers....immediately..and I shared my news of being pregnant (only 1/2 of the ward knew)...due to my trials, I gained a testimony...

but I do remember when I was a teenager...I only gave generic testimonies..because I did not have any real experiences that made me learn...

[Ray]

I've seen and heard the LDS testimony many times and for the most part I don't buy it.

Okay, one more comment on this and then I think I’ll have said enough.

Tr2 said he had seen and heard “the LDS testimony”, which seems to lump the testimonies of all LDS together. In a sense, LDS testimonies can all be lumped together, because all LDS should be able to testify about things that are peculiar to LDS religion, but we should still realize that each LDS testimony is individual.

I also know that some LDS are confused about what a testimony really is, which is evidenced by so many stories about what has been going on in a particular family. Sometimes, a family story can give some background to lead up to how a person gained a testimony about something, as Faerie mentioned, but a testimony is essentially limited to what has been revealed through personal revelation from God.

[shanstress70]

Out of the testimonies that I've heard throughout the years, most of them are generally about God, and how he has answered their prayers. Then at the end they state the usual, "I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet...", or other details that separates them from more mainstream Christians.

Even though I don't believe the last part, I do believe that people of all faiths have testimonies about God, or about a creator of some type. It just so happens that a certain group of people also believe the Joseph Smith part. Maybe we should remember that we believers in God have a lot more in common than not.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 11 2004, 06:25 PM

Out of the testimonies that I've heard throughout the years, most of them are generally about God, and how he has answered their prayers. Then at the end they state the usual, "I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet...", or other details that separates them from more mainstream Christians.

Even though I don't believe the last part, I do believe that people of all faiths have testimonies about God, or about a creator of some type. It just so happens that a certain group of people also believe the Joseph Smith part. Maybe we should remember that we believers in God have a lot more in common than not.

Good point Shanstress. :)

[Snow]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Jun 11 2004, 12:42 PM

But I agree with TR2 that within religion as a whole (including LDS) there might be 75% of people believing in someone elses God.

First, Trident has ZERO idea what Mormon's testimonies might be like. Zero idea.

Second, granted it is frustrating (though I am not sure why people find it so) that other members don't always have a testimony based on a solid foundation. We spend too much time worrying about others and not enough time worrying about ourselves perhaps...

...but think for a moment folks... what is the depth of the collective Mormon testimony compared to that of a non-LDS Christian.

Who takes 2 years out of their life at the peak of the youth - on their own dime - to serve the Lord, 24/7?

Who has a lay clergy that runs their own congregations?

Who pays an actual tithe?

Who, upon conversion, picked up their families and possession and from all-over the world, gathered into the idea of a modern day Zion and continued to do so until asked to say in their home countries and grow the gospel there?

Who extends their committments to their covenants to their clothing and eating habits?

Who would, if told by the prophet, to pick up and march to New Jerusalem, would actually do it?

...and on and on and on.

Their believing and then there's action based on real faith.

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Ray@Jun 11 2004, 03:26 PM

And btw, the only good reason to not believe somebody is because you know better, at which point you should share what you know and how you came to know it.

That notion is so extremely wrong in so many ways that I can't even begin to tell you. But it does explain why YOU joined THAT religion.

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Snow@Jun 11 2004, 08:39 PM

There's believing and then there's action based on real faith.

And then there are mindless cults...

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney+Jun 12 2004, 04:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Jun 12 2004, 04:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Jun 11 2004, 03:26 PM

And btw, the only good reason to not believe somebody is because you know better, at which point you should share what you know and how you came to know it.

That notion is so extremely wrong in so many ways that I can't even begin to tell you. But it does explain why YOU joined THAT religion.

Hmmmmm.

Sometimes Harvey, you are just plain mean hearted.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney+Jun 12 2004, 04:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Jun 12 2004, 04:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Jun 11 2004, 08:39 PM

There's believing and then there's action based on real faith.

And then there are mindless cults...

Yes...and then there is mindless nasties...joined by some here on the board.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Rodney+Jun 12 2004, 04:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Jun 12 2004, 04:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Jun 11 2004, 03:26 PM

And btw, the only good reason to not believe somebody is because you know better, at which point you should share what you know and how you came to know it.

That notion is so extremely wrong in so many ways that I can't even begin to tell you. But it does explain why YOU joined THAT religion.

Heh, I didn't communicate that thought very well, did I?

I meant that the only good reason to believe that somebody is not speaking the truth is because you know what the truth is better than they do. Otherwise what somebody says can possibly be the truth, and you just aren't sure about that. By the same token, the only good reason to believe that somebody IS speaking the truth is because you know what the truth is TOO.

If you know the truth about something, you know whether or not somebody else knows the truth about that something too, as long as they clearly and accurately convey what they know. And that is the truth, whether you know it or not. :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Ray+Jun 12 2004, 08:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Jun 12 2004, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Rodney@Jun 12 2004, 04:12 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Jun 11 2004, 03:26 PM

And btw, the only good reason to not believe somebody is because you know better, at which point you should share what you know and how you came to know it.

That notion is so extremely wrong in so many ways that I can't even begin to tell you. But it does explain why YOU joined THAT religion.

Heh, I didn't communicate that thought very well, did I?

I meant that the only good reason to believe that somebody is not speaking the truth is because you know what the truth is better than they do. Otherwise what somebody says can possibly be the truth, and you just aren't sure about that. By the same token, the only good reason to believe that somebody IS speaking the truth is because you know what the truth is TOO.

If you know the truth about something, you know whether or not somebody else knows the truth about that something too, as long as they clearly and accurately convey what they know. And that is the truth, whether you know it or not. :)

I think you made your point fine Ray....btw I have enjoyed your posts...very uplifting.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by wifeandmom@Jun 5 2004, 12:52 PM

God bless you in your travels Namoni.

The Gate is narrow and few will find it, let alone have the faith and courage to walk through it.

So many stay where they are because it is comfortable, or a tradition or a position or they do not want to lose friends or family, or they have a carnal love of the dovtrine , true ot not.

So many are afraid to admit they never really HAD a testimony.

I trust that the hand of God will place you in the place He has chosen for you .

Courage sister

And so manymore actually know their Lord and God personally and stay with His church because they are true to themselves and their hearts are pure.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Rodney+Jun 12 2004, 04:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Jun 12 2004, 04:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Jun 11 2004, 08:39 PM

There's believing and then there's action based on real faith.

And then there are mindless cults...

Sure there are Rodney. Are Mormons as a people any more mindless than non-Mormons?

Seriously, I would like your opinion as a former believer-turned provacateur.

Do Mormons put any less conscience thought and choice into their life-view than do non's. Personally I'd say no way. They spend more time thinking about their choices and behavior. The have their God and others have their god. Think about rank and file sheep that are led around by their nose to follow the vageries of popular opinion and culture...