Do Satanists Infilltrate The Church?

[spirettedotter]

... and it is comprised of many powerful high status figures". We're left to assume she means people in the church.

Yes, indeed you are assuming, and not basing your arguments on what I actually said. Within my posts I actually have not accused anyone, let alone high church leaders of being involved. I do not believe that our first presidency is involved in SRA practice. Why would I be a member of the Church if I believed that? But I'm not excluding that it could happen when the world becomes wicked enough. I am saying that evil is real and it is possible for the corruption to infiltrate the church. And I did specifically also agree that our prophet was exempt, because God has promised us a prophet would never lead us astray. The powerful high status figures I was referring to at this time are millionnaires, high status government officials, and many famous entertainers, many of which participate in the Bohemian Grove rituals. Yes, I do know of actual people who represent themselves as upstanding LDS members, and at the same time use the church as a front for SRA. And, no, I will not name any names here. But you can research for yourself.

[NeuroTypical]

Loudmouth_Mormon has been summoned to a disciplinary council by his Stake President for his participation in this thread. Until the conclusion of this council, he will not be allowed to post on this board.

Elder James T. Whitte, EQP for Loudmouth_Mormon

[Snow]

I am saying that evil is real and it is possible for the corruption to infiltrate the church.

No - that's not what you said. You didn't say it was possible. You said that it had in fact already happened. You said: "Satanic ritual abuse is a very REAL and horrible religious practice, and it exists here in our church as well as the Catholic church, and every other large organized religion. Our government is completely infiltrated and corrupt with Satanic cults, such as the Illuminati, and they do have power and influence in how our country is operating."

And, no, I will not name any names here. But you can research for yourself.

Surprise! Make a bunch of wild and extreme allegations and then provide ZERO evidence for it. Gosh - who could have predicted that.

[Snow]

That lady has serious problems. I feel so sorry for her children. They looked so upset and the youngest one especially. Her husband really ought to do something about her.

It's kind of sad - I just learned that the lady's daughter in the video (who has a young daughter of her own) was recently killed in an auto accident.

As for false accusations of SRA there have been a couple of instances here in the UK (not involving the Church) where whole communities were supposed to be involved in Satanic abuse and all the children were taken into care and not allowed contact with their parents. It was all subsequently proved to be false and based on 'planted memories' during hypnosis sessions with therapists - false memories. Eventually the children were returned to their innocent parents but their lives have been ruined.

It's like the mass hysteria of the Salem witch trials. You'd have thought we were more civilised than that by now.

Exactly right. It the same thing as the Salem Witch trials

[tiancum]

Surprise! Make a bunch of wild and extreme allegations and then provide ZERO evidence for it. Gosh - who could have predicted that.

What good would names do you Snow?

[Snow]

What good would names do you Snow?

You're missing the point - which wasn't a subtle one.

Claiming that satanist have infiltrated the govt but being completely incapable of saying who - because you don't know - proves you made up the false claim.

It's like Joseph McCarthy pure bluff.

[tiancum]

Claiming that satanist have infiltrated the govt but being completely incapable of saying who - because you don't know - proves you made up the false claim.

you are jumping to conclusions Snow. She is not incapable. She just doesn't answer to you. despite your ridicule. you are assuming she doesn't know.

Maybe she just realizes that no matter what she says, you won't believe her. And you will insinuate that she ...and I for that matter are lying....or crazy. You have equated anyone who believes that ritual abuse is happening to the crazy lady on Youtube.

She has leveled no specific accusations. NONE. You fear she fits a McCarthy archetype, but remember, he DEMANDED names....Who on this thread has demanded names? In a McCarthyesque manner?

You need to apologize to her. You have ridiculed her, and insinuated that I have lied. (i don't care much about that)

Your true character will be shown not for how much you need to be right, but how much you care that you have hurt a sister. You have defamed her in this thread, gave not so subtle hints that we are crazy or liars..... even though she is innocent of causing a witch hunt, or naming ONE NAME. (I, ashamedly, gave into that one, to no avail...All it got me, was you actually going into my post and editing MY POST)

As per the rules, we are allowed to say that we simply "disagree". We cannot, MUST NOT resort to Machiavellian tactics, where the end justifies the means. The end to disproving her assertion (that you obviously do not believe in) does not warrant what you have done to her.

[NeuroTypical]

Snow isn't just demanding names - he's demanding proof. It's not really a bad demand, considering the fantastical story we're being asked to swallow here.

From where I'm standing, if you present sensationalistic claims about some nefariously powerful but shadowy evil, proof helps. You need proof if you want to be taken seriously by most anyone. Without proof, you may be as entertaining as a good x-files episode, but your story isn't going to persuade many people to change, or help.

Yes, I do know of actual people who represent themselves as upstanding LDS members, and at the same time use the church as a front for SRA. And, no, I will not name any names here.

I can't help you.

LM

[tiancum]

LM, it doesn't change the fact that he belittled her.

[Snow]

you are jumping to conclusions Snow. She is not incapable. She just doesn't answer to you. despite your ridicule. you are assuming she doesn't know.

Oh please. I'm hardly jumping to a conclusion. I am DRAWING a conclusion - a very reasonable and obvious one. In as much as she refuses to support her allegation and there is ZERO evidence for it and much, much evidence against it, it is probably the ONLY possible conclusion.

Maybe she just realizes that no matter what she says, you won't believe her.

That's a nonsensical statement. I'd believe anything that anyone said if it were true or reasonable with some logic or evidence behind it.

And you will insinuate that she ...and I for that matter are lying....or crazy.

I don't know what her story and motivations are. I wouldn't even hazard a guess. (hence your charge of insinuation is empty.) As for you, I'd hardly say you are lying - or crazy for that matter. You haven't said anything substantive enough to form a conclusion that you are honest or not honest.

You have equated anyone who believes that ritual abuse is happening to the crazy lady on Youtube.

Now who is jumping to conclusions? Note: this is not a trick question. The answer is you. I personally don't know anyone that believes such things and don't know enough about the ones that do to understand their mental health.

She has leveled no specific accusations.

I guess you haven't even read this thread. She said: "Satanic ritual abuse is a very REAL and horrible religious practice, and it exists here in our church as well as the Catholic church, and every other large organized religion. Our government is completely infiltrated and corrupt with Satanic cults, such as the Illuminati, and they do have power and influence in how our country is operating." and "I know about this first hand, because I married a Satanist in the temple."

NONE. You fear she fits a McCarthy archetype, but remember, he DEMANDED names....Who on this thread has demanded names? In a McCarthyesque manner?

Whoops. You've missed the analogy. Think about it.

You need to apologize to her. You have ridiculed her, and insinuated that I have lied. (i don't care much about that)

OH boy - the drama and hyperbole of it all. If you want to fret and search for a way to be offended, you go right ahead. It's America. If I have something offensive to say to you, Ill say it and you won't have to guess about it.

Your true character will be shown not for how much you need to be right, but how much you care that you have hurt a sister. You have defamed her in this thread, gave not so subtle hints that we are crazy or liars..... even though she is innocent of causing a witch hunt, or naming ONE NAME.

You're going to have to tone down the bad acting and melodrama is you want me to believe you're serious. How on earth could I have hurt the poster because I understand that SRA is bogus? I haven't even said anything particularly bothersome directly towards her.

Do you think that she forms her self-worth off my opinions?

(I, ashamedly, gave into that one, to no avail...All it got me, was you actually going into my post and editing MY POST)

I haven't edited anyone's post. I hit edit on someone's (your's I guess) instead of quote and started typing. When I realized that I was doing it, I clicked my "undo typing" function at left, or at least tried to leave the post exactly as I found it and then I left a note in the reason for edit box about what I had done. At any rate, I didn't intend to hit the edit button and I apologize.

As per the rules, we are allowed to say that we simply "disagree". We cannot, MUST NOT resort to Machiavellian tactics, where the end justifies the means. The end to disproving her assertion (that you obviously do not believe in) does not warrant what you have done to her.

Newsflash. We are grown ups here. I've done nothing to her but disagree with her - and you. Any bother you suffer because of it is on you. I can't control how you feel.

And by the way, if you think I have post a single thing that is untrue, you let me know and if you are correct, I fix it.

[michaela]

Coming into this very late, 14 pages late.

I was sexually abused by my priesthood-holding father for years. It was not satanic or ritualistic in any way---it was just sick.

I did not need to recover memories. They have always been with me. The recovered memory movement has been quite thoroughly de-bunked.

There are some victims of abuse who do disassociate. Their memories wouldn't be considered recovered as described in this thread. Rather, the holder of the memory is identified through therapy. That doesn't make it SRA.

michaela

[spirettedotter]

As much as I enjoy all the attention I’ve gotten here, I can’t say I’ve been too impressed with the group interaction here. But at least there is ongoing conversation.

I do have personal first hand experience in the issues I’ve posted about, and I know many others who do as well, in and out of the church. Anyone who does not want to believe, it is certainly your prerogative. I know what is true, and it is your loss if you choose to keep your eyes closed. I am not going to give into demands for proof, nor will I provide names here (even though I have that knowledge), because that is not what this forum is about, and it is simply not in my best interest. No amount of harassment will change that. My choice to withhold names surely doesn’t mean I’m incapable. It is my right to post or not post what I know, and I deserve as much respect as anyone else posting what they know to be true. I've had no other motive than to share true information to those who are interested and have been fortunate enough not to have had to deal with such issues themselves.

It is not always in our best interest to seek proof, either. In Luke 11:29 it says, “This is an evil generation; they seek a sign.” What good is proof anyway, if you are determined that you already know the truth? The signs of the times and the wickedness in the world are telling enough. Gospel lessons teach us that evil exists, and always has, and it is prophecy that it is getting worse into the last days. I am not trying to shake your comfortable world by arguing or trying hard to convince you. There are plenty of signs that SRA exists, but most of you refuse to see even when you are presented with evidence, because it is too scary. Evidence and survivors exist all around us. You could see it for yourself if you would just opened your eyes to it and un-harden your hearts. There are plenty of examples in the scriptures of what happened to those who demanded proof. In Jacob, Sherem demands a sign and is smitten of God. Korihor was struck dumb for demanding a sign of proof. Pharoah sought sign after sign as proof, but no matter how much was presented, he still wouldn’t believe. Still, we are a stubborn lot and believing is difficult for many. But it might serve you better to be open minded. God destroyed everyone outside of Noah’s ark; it didn’t behoove them not to believe. Sometimes it is better just to allow information in without testing and scrutinizing it. “Blessed are they who believe without proof.”

I try to use Jesus as my example. He did not buckle to harassment by the Pharisees in court trying to trick him into saying something they could attack. He wouldn’t provide miracles as proof for the unbelievers, and it wouldn’t have helped even if he did. And that doesn’t mean he was incapable of using his power that way. He wisely chose not to, because it was not necessary or in his best interest.

Likewise, I know what is true, & why would I want to defend my true statements with proof for those of you who have already chosen not to believe? You are welcome to accept my statements at face value, or not, just the same as everyone else’s posts on the forum. I do not have to defend my statements or my character. Your judgments and attacks on my posts are on you. I know who I am, I know what my family has survived, and I know what is real. You all have your free agency to believe or not, but I hope we can treat one another with kindness in the meantime.

[NeuroTypical]

I wish you well, spirettedotter. You're as wrong about me as you think I am about you, but I wish you well nonetheless.

LM

[Snow]

Likewise, I know what is true, & why would I want to defend my true statements with proof for those of you who have already chosen not to believe?

I dunno, for someone who doesn't want to defend their statements as true, you sure spend a lot of effort trying to convince us that your statements are true.

[a-train]

You guys are still talking about this!??

[tiancum]

Newsflash. We are grown ups here. I've done nothing to her but disagree with her - and you. Any bother you suffer because of it is on you. I can't control how you feel.

Honestly, I am not offended in the least. Admittedly, I thought you said some things that I reread and saw that LM had said them.

All I am asserting that you and LM could have been less acerbic in your responses. The tone in which you responded was, i believe, a bit insensitive. She told you what she had gone through, and even if you didn't believe her, what if she had gone through something extremely traumatizing. A bit more compassion might have been in order.

Comments like

One is believable. The other is indicative of a delusional mental disorder.

Just out of curiosity for those believing in SRA, do you believe this lady also?

speaking of the one who believed in werelizards..

Oh gee, give us a break. Next thing you know aliens are going to kidnaps us out of our hay fields and perform secret dental work on us and erase our memories.

Here's someone who believes in it:

YouTube - Trading Spouses - Crazy Lady - "I'm a God warrior"

Now, don't the above comments paint a certain picture of people who believe in Satanic abuse? That is what i deem as inappropriate. Would it be acceptable on this site if you hinted that people who believe in catholicism or Judaism were crazy? Maybe some of what they believe seems crazy to you.

You are aware that some of us have seen some HORRIBLE things first hand...Some have people close to them that have suffered greatly. It might not be what you believe to be SRA, but it could be something horrible. Couldn't it?

Don't all the allegations beg the question, "for a person to believe in something this extreme, what could they have gone through?" Heck it would make me curious. I would want to find out why they were making these claims...and if they explained it effectively enough, i might learn something new....Maybe I could say, "wow, that is why they believe in all of this, it makes more sense now."

If I didn't believe in it, I would still have compassion on people who have seen "something" first hand. I wouldn't, insinuate that they were crazy. If you can't see that the above comments do insinuate mental instability, then I really don't know what to say.

Lol, if by chance we are indeed suffering from a disorder of some kind, how compassionate is it to hint to their insanity?

Anyway, thanks for listening.

[spirettedotter]

I didn't mean I didn't WANT to defend my statements are true (of course I would like you all to believe me so that together in spiritual warfare, i.e. prayer, we can better protect God's children and do something to stop some of Satan's evil in the world) ...what I meant was I shouldn't HAVE TO defend my knowledge WITH PROOF.

In any case, I agree with Tiancum, and will just add that the practice of SRA, especially when reinforced repetitively on gullible, terrified young children, does often create by elaborate deception a "craziness" in many of their victims. Ritual abusers use costumes, masks, and images in combination with torture, trauma, and near-death experiences ...on purpose, to make children believe they are being abused by aliens, reptiles, policemen, doctors, or even Disney characters (anything unbelievable). Then if they dare to remember the images and to speak out (as children or later as adults) about their wild "memories" that were created so that they have no credibility, of course it ensures that no one will believe them. Something had to have happened to them for them to think those "crazy" things. So there you have hurt people claiming to believe in aliens and reptilian shape-shifters, or whatever (all of which I don't believe in and never indicated I did). Those who believe in those wild concepts probably are all damaged victims of systematic abuse. In fact, I believe that most mental health labels are just an indication of severe trauma. Systematic abuse creates symptoms that make a person look and feel crazy, and sometimes really do make them dangerous to themselves or others. But there are many victims who are just as sane as anyone else, and have knowledge to share that could be beneficial to heed.

Anyway, has anyone ever heard of "TAKE WHAT YOU WANT, AND LEAVE THE REST"? I think that would be a good principle to use here in the forum. And it feels a lot better to use respect, compassion, and consideration of others' feelings whether we agree with one another, or choose to disagree. In any case, we all have the right to free agency, and free-speech, as long as we can follow rules and not be hurtful to anyone. So thank you for reading my post, and for your efforts to keep the tone peaceful here.

[darrel]

I prefer to believe that the influence of Satan can and will do all he can to limit our knowledge and lead us away from truth and right, whatever form he comes in. I think evil designing people would try to make others miserable like themselves. I believe there are two influences in the world. The light of Jesus Christ and the darkness of The Devil and his leagions. The one brings truth and light, joy and happiness, the other bring misery bitterness and who's sole purpose is to undermine the good works of Jesus Christ and his followers.

Opposition is necessary to develop our faith and help us regain our eternal birthright. Our resistance to satan's influence will be tested on every turn.

We must be valiant in our faith and desire to serve our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. Otherwise if we give in to the influence of Satan we will loose our birthright and promise which Jesus Christ Died for.

I do know that The True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will not be taken from the earth again but will prevail in the end as The Savior comes again.

[Snow]

I didn't mean I didn't WANT to defend my statements are true (of course I would like you all to believe me so that together in spiritual warfare, i.e. prayer, we can better protect God's children and do something to stop some of Satan's evil in the world) ...what I meant was I shouldn't HAVE TO defend my knowledge WITH PROOF.

You make wild and bizarre allegations and you should have to prove it?

Huh?

It is obvious to me that you have zero evidence to support your claims. You couldn't possibly know that the govt. is so infiltrated with Satanist because you don't know of a single instance of it.

In any case, I agree with Tiancum, and will just add that the practice of SRA, especially when reinforced repetitively on gullible, terrified young children, does often create by elaborate deception a "craziness" in many of their victims. Ritual abusers use costumes, masks, and images in combination with torture, trauma, and near-death experiences ...on purpose, to make children believe they are being abused by aliens, reptiles, policemen, doctors, or even Disney characters (anything unbelievable). Then if they dare to remember the images and to speak out (as children or later as adults) about their wild "memories" that were created so that they have no credibility, of course it ensures that no one will believe them. Something had to have happened to them for them to think those "crazy" things. So there you have hurt people claiming to believe in aliens and reptilian shape-shifters, or whatever (all of which I don't believe in and never indicated I did). Those who believe in those wild concepts probably are all damaged victims of systematic abuse. In fact, I believe that most mental health labels are just an indication of severe trauma. Systematic abuse creates symptoms that make a person look and feel crazy, and sometimes really do make them dangerous to themselves or others. But there are many victims who are just as sane as anyone else, and have knowledge to share that could be beneficial to heed.

Anyway, has anyone ever heard of "TAKE WHAT YOU WANT, AND LEAVE THE REST"? I think that would be a good principle to use here in the forum. And it feels a lot better to use respect, compassion, and consideration of others' feelings whether we agree with one another, or choose to disagree. In any case, we all have the right to free agency, and free-speech, as long as we can follow rules and not be hurtful to anyone. So thank you for reading my post, and for your efforts to keep the tone peaceful here.

Ob boy, here we go again:

Indicator that Satanic Ritual Abuse is nonsense:

#11. MISSING EVIDENCE

As mentioned above, no hard evidence supporting SRA has ever been found. Support for the existence of SRA is in two types: the recovered memories of tens of thousands of survivors and scars allegedly caused by physical abuse. Sometimes survivors' memories contain elements that are open to verification. For example, some remember having been forced to conceive and had an abortion or delivered a live baby for sacrifice. Many children in the famous McMartin Preschool case recalled being taken down through trap doors in the floor and through underground tunnels that ran through the day care basement. Others remember rituals in which victims of human sacrifice were buried. Others recall horrendous childhood experiences involving extreme physical abuse and mutilation. Some remember being abused in a basement or attic or other specific location.

Police investigations typically show that the survivors who remember pregnancy were never pregnant; that no human remains were discovered after excavating the locations remembered; scars or other marks that would have remained visible are missing - scars which do exist could have been made by the survivor or have logical causes unrelated to ritual abuse; no survivor's lack of school attendance for other than known medical reasons, is on record. Inspections of the McMartin pre-school building revealed that no trap doors were present or could have existed. Excavations around the day care center revealed the existence of many ancient trash dumps, but no evidence of tunnels . No shoring was found; it would have been needed in the sandy soil around the day care center. Some locations for abuse are nonexistent: the attics and basements never existed.

If SRA occurred as survivors remember it, then certain evidence would be present. The fact that it is missing indicates that the memories are probably false. As mentioned above, this does not mean that survivors are lying; it means that their memories (which are very real to them) are of events that never happened.

[Snow]

Honestly, I am not offended in the least. Admittedly, I thought you said some things that I reread and saw that LM had said them.

All I am asserting that you and LM could have been less acerbic in your responses. The tone in which you responded was, i believe, a bit insensitive. She told you what she had gone through, and even if you didn't believe her, what if she had gone through something extremely traumatizing. A bit more compassion might have been in order.

I have no idea what she went though and in fact said that I am sorry for her troubles - whatever they are. My comments were reserved for her wild and exteme claims of Church and government infiltration.

Comments like...

Now, don't the above comments paint a certain picture of people who believe in Satanic abuse? That is what i deem as inappropriate. Would it be acceptable on this site if you hinted that people who believe in catholicism or Judaism were crazy? Maybe some of what they believe seems crazy to you.

You are aware that some of us have seen some HORRIBLE things first hand...Some have people close to them that have suffered greatly. It might not be what you believe to be SRA, but it could be something horrible. Couldn't it?

Don't all the allegations beg the question, "for a person to believe in something this extreme, what could they have gone through?" Heck it would make me curious. I would want to find out why they were making these claims...and if they explained it effectively enough, i might learn something new....Maybe I could say, "wow, that is why they believe in all of this, it makes more sense now."

If I didn't believe in it, I would still have compassion on people who have seen "something" first hand. I wouldn't, insinuate that they were crazy. If you can't see that the above comments do insinuate mental instability, then I really don't know what to say.

Lol, if by chance we are indeed suffering from a disorder of some kind, how compassionate is it to hint to their insanity?

Anyway, thanks for listening.

I do indeed think that those kinds of comments paint a picture of someone who suffers from mental issues or who have suffered abuse at the hands of messed up therapists. That they have reasons or motivations for making false claims is sad, but it doesn't change the immorality of their claims - immoral if they make the claims against innocent victims (which most certainly happens), and just plain wrong or ridiculous otherwise. I personally don't lose much sleep by calling ridiculous or wrong behavior, ridiculous and wrong.