Faith and works

[Misshalfway]

The faith vs. works argument that has gone on for so long is akin to a who's on first bit in my mind. There are those who claim that any statement to the effect that some action is necessary for a man to claim salvation is a denial of the grace of God.

This is like saying that the man who entered the soup kitchen and received free food paid for it simply by walking in the door and the establishment is lacking in either grace and/or efficacy as a charitable organization.

Our LORD's proclamation is: 'Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.' (Isaiah 55:1)

Certainly the gift of salvation is free, but our LORD does not force us into it. It is simply illogical, the notion that the partaking of the salvation of God is not necessary for eternal life. It is just as ridiculous to claim that partaking of food is not necessary for mortal life. It is still just as outrageous to pretend that eating food pays for it.

Our LORD has provided for us the waters of eternal life and comparing them to earthly waters He said: 'Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.' (John 4:13-14)

Now, can we pretend that the act of drinking the LORD's living water in some way pays for it? Is our LORD's grace lacking because He asks us to drink His water, to partake of everlasting life? Is His Blood ineffective because the choice is ours either to partake or not to partake?

Satan wants us very badly not to partake. It is He who rationalizes not partaking of these waters and who spouts such foolishness like: 'It is not necessary that you partake in order to receive life.'

I can hardly see how this argument even exists.

-a-train

You are right. The argument is as old as the hills!!!

[skalenfehl]

Repentance is necessary for true conversion. Only if we confess our sins will God be faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteous. BUT, once converted, we are not, every time we sin, being reconverted, when we repent. Rather, as Christians, as "saved" folk, we are now approaching our Father with our misdeeds, and asking him to forgive us, so that our relationship remains pure with him. Most churches even set aside a time, prior to taking of Sacrament (Communion) for such introspective repentance, because of Paul's admonition that if we approach the sacrament in an unworthy manner we may bring a curse upon ourselves.

Beautifully written.

[prisonchaplain]

I am so sorry PC. But I don't get it. Why would the blood of Christ cover the sin?

If I knowingly sinned, and I didn't take steps to repair the damage I had done and ask forgiveness, etc., then isn't that sin still in my heart? Christ would take away the stain because he was nice? Because all the rest of my confessions of Christ would make up the difference? What of justice? Can mercy rob justice?

Once we are converted, we do not find ourselves in a constant state of losing and regaining salvation. We truly become God's children. He does not disown us every time we fail. BUT, of course, when we fail, we do need to come to him with repentance. His Holy Spirit even makes of us aware of that need, through conviction.

AND, if we choose to reject the wooing of the Spirit, and to harden our heart against God and his righteousness, we can ultimately commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and lose our salvation.

BUT, I do not walk about fearful that there might be some unnoticed sin in my life that I failed to specifically take to the Father, in repentance, and am therefore lost and damned, without hope, for having missed that one detail.

[skalenfehl]

I can hardly see how this argument even exists.

-a-train

Consider the thousands of souls who are still learning this principle. It is very new to them. It was once news to you.

[Misshalfway]

Once we are converted, we do not find ourselves in a constant state of losing and regaining salvation. We truly become God's children. He does not disown us every time we fail. BUT, of course, when we fail, we do need to come to him with repentance. His Holy Spirit even makes of us aware of that need, through conviction.

AND, if we choose to reject the wooing of the Spirit, and to harden our heart against God and his righteousness, we can ultimately commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and lose our salvation.

BUT, I do not walk about fearful that there might be some unnoticed sin in my life that I failed to specifically take to the Father, in repentance, and am therefore lost and damned, without hope, for having missed that one detail.

Sure! No one should be that hard on themselves. I guess I wonder about situations where a person has legitimately been saved, as you put it, and then commits serious sin. Wouldn't that condition put their salvation in jepardy? Isn't repentance necessary to restore them to full favor with God?

[prisonchaplain]

Same answer...the sin itself will not cause God to disown...but a refusal to repent, once the need is evident, could eventually lead to a loss of salvation. The crux is not any particular sin, but the repeated willful decision to resist the Holy Spirit.

[Misshalfway]

Same answer...the sin itself will not cause God to disown...but a refusal to repent, once the need is evident, could eventually lead to a loss of salvation. The crux is not any particular sin, but the repeated willful decision to resist the Holy Spirit.

This is a piece that I can't reconcile in my mind. If God can't look on sin with the least degree of allowance, and if we are admonished not to justify in committing a little sin.... I don't understand why one sin is ok....as long as it is not repeated to much.

Why the lag time between sin and consequences? (I am a little tired today...having a hard time finding words. :) ) Is that the mercy of God or the grace of God to you?

[a-train]

Consider the thousands of souls who are still learning this principle. It is very new to them. It was once news to you.

Certainly this can be troublesome to the new convert, but this issue continues to broil in 'professional' ranks. That is where the thing is perpetuated. We have ministers in the land promoting the notion and spreading it around. On this and other issues promoted by priests in this country, I seriously wonder if they are knowingly deceiving people.

-a-train

[Maureen]

This is a piece that I can't reconcile in my mind. If God can't look on sin with the least degree of allowance, and if we are admonished not to justify in committing a little sin.... I don't understand why one sin is ok....as long as it is not repeated to much.

Why the lag time between sin and consequences? (I am a little tired today...having a hard time finding words. :) ) Is that the mercy of God or the grace of God to you?

But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

Remember Misshalfway that God's love for us is much greater than sin. He doesn't give up on us easily, he always gives us many chances.

M.

[Misshalfway]

But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

Remember Misshalfway that God's love for us is much greater than sin. He doesn't give up on us easily, he always gives us many chances.

M.

Please do not misunderstand me. I never doubt for a minute that God gives many chances. Goodness sakes! I experience that grace everyday. I am trying to understand how "saved by grace" and accountability work together in the mind of a protestant....

I am talking about justice and mercy. This doctrine feels like it isn't clear with regards to balancing the two. I believe that becoming reconcilled to God requires that justice and mercy are both served. Yes, Christ died for me and you and everyone. But in my mind he requires something of me....my repentance in order for his grace to take away my stain -- to bring me back to harmony with my Father's will.

I am wondering if other Christians see it the same way. Because it doesn't sound like it. So, I am trying to understand better the minds of my fellow Christians.

[Moksha]

EDIT: I think I need to add that I want to understand it from the non LDS Christian perspective. Thanks.

This is how I have understood it: The Grace from God's mercy and love is what saves and what we do to curry favor or generate our own magic matters naught. Of course being LDS, I could be wrong about this representation.

[Maureen]

...Yes, Christ died for me and you and everyone. But in my mind he requires something of me...

He requires your faith in his ability to save you.

One of my favorite biblical stories is of the woman who suffered from an hemorrhage. She had so much faith in Jesus' ability to heal her that she knew all she had to do was touch the hem of his clothes. The lady was trying to get close to Jesus because a crowd gathered close to him, pressing against him asking him for their own healing. The woman didn't approach him with words because she knew his power was so great (and her faith in his power was so strong) that all she did was touch his hem. He knew something had happened and asked who had touched him; his disciples thought he was crazy because there were hoards of people around him touching him. But this touch was so powerfully charged with faith that it healed her, through Jesus.

Our faith in God's grace (his ability to save us) is like that, very powerful. Through faith we can overcome many things. Through that faith we have a close relationship with God. When we do sin, we know immediately through the HS that repentance is required, because our new relationship with God gives us that desire to do what is right.

M.

[Guest tomk]

This may be a good book to read through:

Amazon.com: The Atonement of Jesus Christ: A study of the saving atonement of Jesus Christ: Kevan Kingsley Clawson: Books

It is one of the most clear, no-nonsense explanations of Justice, Mercy, Repentance I have ever run across.

[Misshalfway]

He requires your faith in his ability to save you.

One of my favorite biblical stories is of the woman who suffered from an hemorrhage. She had so much faith in Jesus' ability to heal her that she knew all she had to do was touch the hem of his clothes. The lady was trying to get close to Jesus because a crowd gathered close to him, pressing against him asking him for their own healing. The woman didn't approach him with words because she knew his power was so great (and her faith in his power was so strong) that all she did was touch his hem. He knew something had happened and asked who had touched him; his disciples thought he was crazy because there were hoards of people around him touching him. But this touch was so powerfully charged with faith that it healed her, through Jesus.

Our faith in God's grace (his ability to save us) is like that, very powerful. Through faith we can overcome many things. Through that faith we have a close relationship with God. When we do sin, we know immediately through the HS that repentance is required, because our new relationship with God gives us that desire to do what is right.

M.

I love that story too. It is one of my personal favorites. Thank you for sharing it.

[Misshalfway]

Ok. Yes. He requires our faith. Absolutely that part is clear.

If I speed while driving and get pulled over, justice demands that I pay the fine. The cop, being merciful, grants me my license to drive and in essence another chance. But, even though I have faith that the cop will give me this chance....I still have to pay the fine.

Christ works the same way. There are consequences...eternal consequences for sin. They work together much like other natural laws. To each action...an equal and opposite reaction..... that kind of thing. We are fallen, sinful, unfit for the presence of God. So, The Father in his mercy grants us a Savior. He dies for us and pays the price for sin. He literally buys us with his blood. Absolute grace! But he does this conditionally upon our faith... but also our repentance. He in essence says that we won't have to endure eternal punishment if we will commit our lives to him and repent...change....make restitution for our wrongs....change our hearts......become more converted.

It IS absolutely a gift.....but it is not a free one. He pays the debt...but requires in return a broken heart and contrite spirit. Justice and mercy are both satisfied and man is accountable for his actions.

Is this the way you understand it, Maureen?

God can't give allowance for sin....but if we have faith, repent, and reconcile ourselves, sin is not an obstacle anymore. In my church's view, sin can separate us from God no matter where we are in our progression to Christ....Everytime I speed, I have to face the consequences and make it right again. Christ is there absolutely everytime to forgive and restore my blessings.

[prisonchaplain]

This is a piece that I can't reconcile in my mind. If God can't look on sin with the least degree of allowance, and if we are admonished not to justify in committing a little sin.... I don't understand why one sin is ok....as long as it is not repeated to much.

Why the lag time between sin and consequences? (I am a little tired today...having a hard time finding words. :) ) Is that the mercy of God or the grace of God to you?

We all depend on God's mercy and grace. Your question points to the scriptural truth that there is none righteous, not one. So, when I repented initially, and was converted, it's not that my sins were washed away, only up until that moment. Rather, I came under the new covenant. Jesus' blood was shed for all my sins. I'm not on eternal probationary status.

However, this grace and mercy is not license to sin with abandon. Rather, I do continue to repent when I sin, because I am truly sorry I have offended my benefactor. The sin--even if I miss it, or fail to see it for what it is, has been paid for, by Christ's shed blood. It is not just one sin, or just a few little sins that God "let's go." All my sins have been "let go."

But, if I am truly alive to him, we're back to the fruit of that. No good works, no love, no fruit of the Spirit...well, is this faith alive or not?

[WANDERER]

There is still the concept of judgement day...while grace, faith and repentance are there...you are accountable. You have two possible outcomes based on how God will judge your life: heaven or hell. Perhaps there is more of a focus on becoming than being. : having your heart right with God. It is described as the 'new covenant'. Basically, being judged by works alone is insufficient for salvation. If you are operating under grace your actions will be those that are of a Christian/follower of Christ. But you can't get by on outward observances. These are meaningless if you haven't got the rest of it right/hollow Christianity concept.

[Misshalfway]

Thanks for your posts. I am understanding. I think I just had a few missing peices but it is more clear to me now.

[Maureen]

...Christ works the same way. There are consequences...eternal consequences for sin. They work together much like other natural laws. To each action...an equal and opposite reaction..... that kind of thing. We are fallen, sinful, unfit for the presence of God. So, The Father in his mercy grants us a Savior. He dies for us and pays the price for sin. He literally buys us with his blood. Absolute grace! But he does this conditionally upon our faith... but also our repentance. He in essence says that we won't have to endure eternal punishment if we will commit our lives to him and repent...change....make restitution for our wrongs....change our hearts......become more converted.

It IS absolutely a gift.....but it is not a free one. He pays the debt...but requires in return a broken heart and contrite spirit. Justice and mercy are both satisfied and man is accountable for his actions.

Is this the way you understand it, Maureen?

God can't give allowance for sin....but if we have faith, repent, and reconcile ourselves, sin is not an obstacle anymore...

Hi Misshalfway,

I see salvation/conversion a little differently. I see God offering mankind this gift of salvation unconditionally. Yes, we must have faith, I think that goes without saying because those that do not accept this gift of grace, possibly do not see it as real or important.

With faith, we believe that God will give us eternal life with him. (Grace does not, for non-LDS, just merely offer us resurrection, but eternal life with God). When we sincerely want this gift and accept it, we change. We, through this gift become a new person in Christ. Our old self and sins are forgiven and forgotten, and we become a new person, a member of God's family. Through this gift we are spiritually baptized with fire by the HS and become sanctified. With this change we have a desire to do good works and make a greater effort to avoid sin. But if we do sin, we have the desire to repent and like PC has mentioned, any sin we are not aware of is covered by Christ's shed blood; the power of God's grace at work.

I see being saved by grace as not a deal we make with God but as a spiritually powerful gift that God gives us, that changes us and welcomes us into God's family.

M.

[Misshalfway]

M,

Thanks for that. I see it much the same way too... I just didn't add it in my post. But yes, I agree that the born again thing.. the being changed spiritually and the being welcomed into the fold. I believe that too. Our BofM talks a lot about being born again and having our spirits and dispositions literally changed because of the blood of the lamb. And we do believe also that resurrection and eternal life are the blessings of salvation -- just to clarify. Resurrection is for all men, no matter what. Eternal life is for the obedient who did follow the Savior. I don't think I am explaining myself very well. I reread my posts and it just isn't exactly what I want to say. But I haven't slept for a few nights....sick kids. Hope you will forgive my fumbles. I am rambling......

Anyway, I am comforted that our views are at least similar. And I think that I misunderstood. And I am glad I asked the question.

Are there parts of Christianity that do teach that being 'saved' is a guarantee to Exaltation? Because I have been told this by many. And it seems by others who have posted on this thread that perhaps there are different interpretations of this idea.

[WANDERER]

Exultation is a concept that is foreign to me, it might be similar to being 'glorified:that is reflecting God's glory'...you are rewarded according to works, faith and diligence in seeking Him.

Salvation is not to be neglected (Hebrews 2) and includes patient continuance in doing good (Romans 2)and faithulness in doing the will of the Father (gospel).

[prisonchaplain]

M,

Are there parts of Christianity that do teach that being 'saved' is a guarantee to Exaltation? Because I have been told this by many. And it seems by others who have posted on this thread that perhaps there are different interpretations of this idea.

Yes, there is such a group. When of Calvin's teachings was "the perseverance of the saints." This sometimes gets translated as "once saved always saved." Such believers place great emphasis on "assurance of salvation."

Thing of it is, when one of them falls into sin, they simply say, "S/he wasn't really saved in the first place." And again, those who teach this, tend to also believer, they are saved because God chose them. They desire to demonstrate that they are chosen by doing good works and avoiding sin.

[AnthonyB]

If your wanting the official scripts look up...

Calvinism, Armininianism and Pelagianism.

Cutting and pasting (cause my last effort at explaining was terrible....

Pelagius preached justification through faith alone, but also believed salvation was finished through good works and moral uprightness.

Historically Pelagianism has come to represent any system that denies original sin, holds that by nature humans are capable of good, and maintains morality and works are part of the equation that yields salvation. Semi-Pelagiansim is a variation on the original more akin to Pelagius' own thought - that justification is through faith, but that Adam's original sin was merely a bad example, humans can naturally seek God, and salvation is completed through works. Both systems reject a Calvinist understanding of predestination.

I had the impressions Mormon's are generally closer to some form of pelagianism.

[Maureen]

..Are there parts of Christianity that do teach that being 'saved' is a guarantee to Exaltation? Because I have been told this by many. And it seems by others who have posted on this thread that perhaps there are different interpretations of this idea.

Misshalfway, could you define Exaltation for me, just so I know that we are discussing the same thing?

M.

[Misshalfway]

Misshalfway, could you define Exaltation for me, just so I know that we are discussing the same thing?

M.

Exaltation or Eternal life is living in the presence of God for the eternities.