Why does God allow so many to be misled in His name?

[Hemidakota]

"You can lead a horse to the water but you cannot force it to drink."

[DigitalShadow]

Based upon that, I would say it is better to believe in a higher power of some sort than to be agnostic or aetheist. Why? Cuz it seems to me that it gives God "more to work with" as regards to that individual, whereas an agnostic or aetheist is not even SURE that higher power exists, or refutes it completely.

I think you're wrong there. Someone who is agnostic and has yet to decide on a particular religion is more likely to join a particular religion if it is shown to be true to him than someone who has already had an "undeniable" experience knowing God, but picked up the wrong message and now has unshakable faith in it.

If you were exposed to the idea that YOU could have a part in creating bits of that universe -- wouldn't you want the chance? You cannot deny the kewl "geek factor" present in that idea. To be able to create worlds, planetary systems, suns of all varieties, whatever, you-name-it!!!!

I can't wait to get there!!!

As undeniably cool as that would be, I wouldn't want such responsibility and to have billions of your children pestering you all day with their petty desires before even stopping to think if this is really worth bothering God for. I have enough trouble with the responsibility of playing Sim City and keeping all those virtual people happy. Honestly I'd rather have peace and nothingness I think.

(that last paragraph was tongue-in-cheek, please don't take offense :))

[Misshalfway]

"You can lead a horse to the water but you cannot force it to drink."

Nope. But you can salt the oats! Keep praying DS. It is worth it!

[Hemidakota]

Agreed.

For me, in sharing the greater portion of light is also challenging. "Not all can receive the Pearls and understand its real worth."

[Mathonihah]

I ask this question honestly, it was brought up in another thread of mine but I do think it deserves its own thread. It has been proposed that free agency is the cause, but I know for a fact that there are people who are not a part of the church but honestly seeking a relationship with God. If God communicates to us with thoughts and feelings, when someone is honestly an humbly seeking Him, why do they not always get a response? Worse yet, why do some get conflicting responses? How would it violate free agency to simply guide someone who is honestly seeking a relationship with God?

There are many truly faithful people that believe they have communicated with God and that their church is true. I would have no problem believing that they did in fact communicate with God if it weren't for the fact that there are so many different churches all with faithful people knowing their particular church is true. It is clear that these people honestly want a relationship with God, why didn't God send them to the "correct" church instead of allowing them to believe in a false church?

I ask this because I see many of my fellow man who are utterly convinced that God talks to them and nothing can convince them otherwise. Obviously not all of them can be right since they are from different churches with sometimes drastically different messages, so I am understandably cautious before diving head first into the deep end of "faith."

Before I am accused of "blaming" God for the situation, I would like to say that I am not "blaming" God for anything. I am only seeking to understand the process of communicating with God because I am obviously missing something since He doesn't talk to me at all.

God expects us to do our homework. It took two years of thoughtful study before Brigham Young joined the Church. It also took about two years of thoughtful meditation and study for Joseph Smith to feel ready to ask God and get his vision. Oliver Cowdrey was reproached by the Lord because he took no thought save it was to ask God when he tried to translate. If all I do is ask flippantly, "God which church is right?" Why would I expect God to respond? At best I might suppose He would give a flippant response. What about if I asked God sincerely and did nothing to try to reason it out for myself? Remember what James said, "Faith without works is dead."

Sometimes you have to dive off "the deep end". But always check to see if there is water in the pool first! I assume you already found out that the pool holds water. Else you wouldn't have married an LDS girl and would have found the Church teachings repugnant.

I think the question isn't what everyone else thinks (or knows) but, "How do I know?" or "How can I know?"

First I know because it "tastes" good to me. I know when food is good because it tastes wholesome, it satisfies hunger, it leaves me with no regret (like an upset stomach) after I've eaten it. In like manner, I know when a precept is a good one because it "tastes" wholesome, it enlightens my mind (akin to satisfying hunger), it makes me a better person (akin to leaving me with no stomach ache).

I also know because of the examples of the Church leaders I see. They are great men and women who care a lot and work diligently and are happy for the most part. They are extremely intelligent too.

I know because of the "aura" or spirit I see around Church members. There are some people i can just look at and see they are good and wholesome and obeying the commandments. In this manner I knew the President Hinkley was a man of God.

Now you ask, "What about people of other faiths who say they know?"

One, I do not know if they know or what that know. I am not them. I can't be in there head.

I said I know when a precept is good because it "tastes" good. I assume everyone has this ability too (see Moroni 7, especially verses 13 and 16). I assume that people of other faiths have "tasted" what their churches have to offer and found them (or a parts of them) good. That is their churches teach many precepts which their members have tried and found good and therefore of God. They may then say, "Because this principle is true the whole church must be true as well." Are they right? On the other hand, someone might be investigating the same church and find the one of its precepts doesn't ring true and concludes that this particular church is false. Is he right?

One can even investigate every precept that his church teaches and find them all good and of God. Did he find the right Church of God? He can say that all the precepts he has investigated so far as good and of God. I'm not sure that he can say the his church is the "true Church of God" though. Perhaps there was a precept that he missed?

Lastly and most importantly, I know that the Church is true because the "First Vision" is true. God spoke to Joseph Smith and told him that through him he would establish his church (see Joseph Smith-History 1:10-34).

[Traveler]

I ask this question honestly, it was brought up in another thread of mine but I do think it deserves its own thread. It has been proposed that free agency is the cause, but I know for a fact that there are people who are not a part of the church but honestly seeking a relationship with God. If God communicates to us with thoughts and feelings, when someone is honestly an humbly seeking Him, why do they not always get a response? Worse yet, why do some get conflicting responses? How would it violate free agency to simply guide someone who is honestly seeking a relationship with God?

There are many truly faithful people that believe they have communicated with God and that their church is true. I would have no problem believing that they did in fact communicate with God if it weren't for the fact that there are so many different churches all with faithful people knowing their particular church is true. It is clear that these people honestly want a relationship with God, why didn't God send them to the "correct" church instead of allowing them to believe in a false church?

I ask this because I see many of my fellow man who are utterly convinced that God talks to them and nothing can convince them otherwise. Obviously not all of them can be right since they are from different churches with sometimes drastically different messages, so I am understandably cautious before diving head first into the deep end of "faith."

Before I am accused of "blaming" God for the situation, I would like to say that I am not "blaming" God for anything. I am only seeking to understand the process of communicating with God because I am obviously missing something since He doesn't talk to me at all.

You ask great questions and I wish I had more time to converse with you. There are a couple of things to keep in mind. The method of G-d is to offer line upon line upon line upon line – precept upon precept upon precept upon precept. It is a fundamental doctrine of the LDS church that even the LDS do not have all the answers or knowledge of things – just enough to get started. How far we journey in our travel is up to us. This is the great secret. It is not that anyone has been mislead as much as it is that many (perhaps most including many LDS) have gone only so far and then refuse to be lead any farther.

At this point I would point out that we might have experience and knowledge of good and evil but that is only the beginning. The second very important notion is that our probation is not limited to this life. At some point we will know and see and make a final decision.

I like your thinking that a choice is not made in faith but in knowledge. If a person does not know the result of a choice - that is not a “free” choice based on the exercise of free will. I believe that according to our experience we will all make a free choice based on true knowledge of the result. I also believe that those that become accustomed to satisfying self and that love self will choose that which they know will satisfy self. Those that have become accustomed to serving others and love other and have compassion for others will choose that which they know will be of best service to others. At this point I would add that G-d is the great example of service and love of others.

It is not that G-d misleads anyone only that we only allow him to lead us as to some point then refuse to continue.

The Traveler

[Dirk]

38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

[DigitalShadow]

God expects us to do our homework. It took two years of thoughtful study before Brigham Young joined the Church. It also took about two years of thoughtful meditation and study for Joseph Smith to feel ready to ask God and get his vision. Oliver Cowdrey was reproached by the Lord because he took no thought save it was to ask God when he tried to translate. If all I do is ask flippantly, "God which church is right?" Why would I expect God to respond? At best I might suppose He would give a flippant response. What about if I asked God sincerely and did nothing to try to reason it out for myself? Remember what James said, "Faith without works is dead."

The problem is that I am doing my homework. I did not come upon this question lightly and I somewhat resent if you are implying I am asking the question flippantly. I am asking God directly because from all my investigation into different religions none of them have any emerical evidence to go on, all require you to take them on faith, so what else am I supposed to do? If God will not respond to an honest question after I have exhausted all other avenues of investigation, how am I to decide which religion is "right"?

Sometimes you have to dive off "the deep end". But always check to see if there is water in the pool first! I assume you already found out that the pool holds water. Else you wouldn't have married an LDS girl and would have found the Church teachings repugnant.

I think the question isn't what everyone else thinks (or knows) but, "How do I know?" or "How can I know?"

First I know because it "tastes" good to me. I know when food is good because it tastes wholesome, it satisfies hunger, it leaves me with no regret (like an upset stomach) after I've eaten it. In like manner, I know when a precept is a good one because it "tastes" wholesome, it enlightens my mind (akin to satisfying hunger), it makes me a better person (akin to leaving me with no stomach ache).

I also know because of the examples of the Church leaders I see. They are great men and women who care a lot and work diligently and are happy for the most part. They are extremely intelligent too.

There are good people who care and work dilligently and are happy in every religion, even atheists.

I know because of the "aura" or spirit I see around Church members. There are some people i can just look at and see they are good and wholesome and obeying the commandments. In this manner I knew the President Hinkley was a man of God.

I believe President Hinkley was a good man as well, but I know other people who have that "aura" of goodness about them of different faiths as well.

Now you ask, "What about people of other faiths who say they know?"

One, I do not know if they know or what that know. I am not them. I can't be in there head.

I said I know when a precept is good because it "tastes" good. I assume everyone has this ability too (see Moroni 7, especially verses 13 and 16). I assume that people of other faiths have "tasted" what their churches have to offer and found them (or a parts of them) good. That is their churches teach many precepts which their members have tried and found good and therefore of God. They may then say, "Because this principle is true the whole church must be true as well." Are they right? On the other hand, someone might be investigating the same church and find the one of its precepts doesn't ring true and concludes that this particular church is false. Is he right?

I think hot dogs "taste" good, my wife thinks they are disgusting, does that mean either of us are right about the true nature of hot dogs? My point is that taste (in both food and religion) is subjective by nature, when I seek the truth, I look for things that are objectively shown to be true. So far there is nothing that points to a way of objectively showing any one church is more true than another, so I have accepted that a personal spiritual experience of God telling me which church is true would do it for me. I have yet to receive that.

One can even investigate every precept that his church teaches and find them all good and of God. Did he find the right Church of God? He can say that all the precepts he has investigated so far as good and of God. I'm not sure that he can say the his church is the "true Church of God" though. Perhaps there was a precept that he missed?

Lastly and most importantly, I know that the Church is true because the "First Vision" is true. God spoke to Joseph Smith and told him that through him he would establish his church (see Joseph Smith-History 1:10-34).

How do you know the "First Vision" is true? Forgive me for being skeptical but when fantatsic claims are made, the burden of proof is on the one making the claims. I can accept that it must be taken on faith, but knowing the church is true because of an event you've taken on faith doesn't make much sense to me.

[Misshalfway]

DS, I dreamt last night that I had all this fabulous stuff to tell you......and then I woke up and couldn't remember any of it. LOL. Oh well.

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything.....but doesn't rock band (for the Wii)come out this month? Can't wait to play it. Somebody said it was better than guitar hero. Somebody else said that playing it on the Wii is difficult though because you have to hold the controller too..???

I don't know. I am just a mom trying to make my boys happy!

Anyway, I have nothing wonderful to add. Just wanted to stop by and chew the fat. Now I am off.

Cya.

[Dirk]

Just a couple of questions

1 Are you looking for scientific proof for religion in general or just for Mormonism?

2 Are you looking for an answer as to which church is right?

[Hemidakota]

DS, all I can say, I wished Einstein and Testla were members of the church. I couldn't imagine where we would be at this time. lol

[a-train]

Why does God allow so many to be misled in His name?

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. (2 Nephi 2:11)

-a-train

[DigitalShadow]

DS, all I can say, I wished Einstein and Testla were members of the church. I couldn't imagine where we would be at this time. lol

I'm not sure I catch your point. Their achievements were accomplished through logical thought and rational processes, not through acts of faith. Adding faith to the mix would either inhibit their discoveries or have no effect. I have no idea how being a part of the church would have allowed them to accomplish more.

[Elgama]

I'm not sure I catch your point. Their achievements were accomplished through logical thought and rational processes, not through acts of faith. Adding faith to the mix would either inhibit their discoveries or have no effect. I have no idea how being a part of the church would have allowed them to accomplish more.

I can't find it but there was a talk in General Conference by Russell M Nelson about a man who insisted he perform a surgery he didn't want to do and how he went on to do it whilst receiving revelation. I know we have had other Apostle scientists who have talked about how their Faith and Gift of the Holy Ghost assists them in their work but that one stood out just wish I could remember which conference I thought it was 2004

-Charley

[Hemidakota]

DS, do you understand the term WAVE MECHANICS?

[DigitalShadow]

DS, do you understand the term WAVE MECHANICS?

Yes, I have a loose understanding of the term, I'm assuming it has to do with the mechanics of a wave and the wave equation.

[Hemidakota]

I had a keen interest in this area back in the early 80s, as I was struggling to understand how wave particles interact [see Feynman's PhD thesis - Feynman and Wheeler, 1945]. [Personal- I will share something with you] I guess my keen interest must have sparked something between GOD and me on this very subject. One night, I woke up out of dead sleep, in starring at my answer. It lasted for small moment but enough to walk away now in not believing everything that comes out of academia as the gospel. What instigated that vision, I simply don't know but I chalk it up as a desire that HE answered. Perhaps, letting me know, if I had keen interest in such, overtime, would share those moments with me. I was in tears.

[DigitalShadow]

I had a keen interest in this area back in the early 80s, as I was struggling to understand how wave particles interact [see Feynman's PhD thesis - Feynman and Wheeler, 1945]. [Personal- I will share something with you] I guess my keen interest must have sparked something between GOD and me on this very subject. One night, I woke up out of dead sleep, in starring at my answer. It lasted for small moment but enough to walk away now in not believing everything that comes out of academia as the gospel. What instigated that vision, I simply don't know but I chalk it up as a desire that HE answered. Perhaps, letting me know, if I had keen interest in such, overtime, would share those moments with me. I was in tears.

Not to belittle your experience, but I do think that anyone whether a part of the church or not can experience those sudden glimpses of understanding seemingly out of nowhere.

I am a software developer by trade (I do have more than a passing interest in science though). Occasionally I strugle with a particularly difficult problem for multiple days, then after I've almost completely given up, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and suddenly understand the answer. I simply attribute it to the background processes of my mind working on the problem even when I'm not consciously thinking of working on it and then the answer bubbling up to my conscious mind when it is ready.

[Hemidakota]

I Understand. Just nothing is impossible DS.

Yes, I have those bubbling neuronic gods in finally surface an answer for me after exhausting myself.

[DigitalShadow]

I Understand. Just nothing is impossible DS.

Yes, I have those bubbling neuronic gods in finally surface an answer for me after exhausting myself.

Yes, nothing is impossible. I firmly believe that, which is exactly why I remain agnostic. It is entirely possible that all religions are wrong, so I would be remiss in claiming to know for sure any church is correct or even that none of them are, I simply acknowledge that I don't know.

[Dr T]

"Nothing is impossible" is that like "never say never"? Is that a self defeating phrase?

[Hemidakota]

LOL Yes, you are correct. Coined phrases we simply misuse.

"Anything is possible"

[rameumptom]

I'm not sure I catch your point. Their achievements were accomplished through logical thought and rational processes, not through acts of faith. Adding faith to the mix would either inhibit their discoveries or have no effect. I have no idea how being a part of the church would have allowed them to accomplish more.

Joseph Smith taught that God sends the light of Christ throughout the universe. There is no space that is not penetrated by that light. This light of Christ, called by many the conscious, enlightens us and inspires us. I believe that God moves upon people like Einstein to bring to pass greater light and knowledge to the Earth. (D&C 93, 88, Moroni 7).

I believe Hemidakota hopes they have joined the Church in the Spirit World. Their search for truth will have hopefully guided them to the greater spiritual light that is offered there.

Regardless of whether they have accepted the fullness of spiritual light or not, I believe they have accepted enough truth to hold a place in one of the levels of heaven.

[Mathonihah]

The problem is that I am doing my homework. I did not come upon this question lightly and I somewhat resent if you are implying I am asking the question flippantly. I am asking God directly because from all my investigation into different religions none of them have any emerical evidence to go on, all require you to take them on faith, so what else am I supposed to do? If God will not respond to an honest question after I have exhausted all other avenues of investigation, how am I to decide which religion is "right"?

There are good people who care and work dilligently and are happy in every religion, even atheists.

I believe President Hinkley was a good man as well, but I know other people who have that "aura" of goodness about them of different faiths as well.

I think hot dogs "taste" good, my wife thinks they are disgusting, does that mean either of us are right about the true nature of hot dogs? My point is that taste (in both food and religion) is subjective by nature, when I seek the truth, I look for things that are objectively shown to be true. So far there is nothing that points to a way of objectively showing any one church is more true than another, so I have accepted that a personal spiritual experience of God telling me which church is true would do it for me. I have yet to receive that.

How do you know the "First Vision" is true? Forgive me for being skeptical but when fantatsic claims are made, the burden of proof is on the one making the claims. I can accept that it must be taken on faith, but knowing the church is true because of an event you've taken on faith doesn't make much sense to me.

I viewed your posted question as an honest one and answered in kind. Many people are flippant about there attitude towards God, I apologize if my respond seemed to place you in the same category, I was suggesting a reason why some don't receive and answer. Some are flippant, some are sincere but lazy, some are diligent but don't like the answer they are given, some are diligent but just can't connect the dots (that "eureka!" or "ahah!" element is somehow missing)

I agree with your wife. Hot dogs are disgusting:D. Now brautwurst, there's a different story:). Anyway, I see your point. And that is one of the reasons people have different religions. But based on taste and comparing it with other foods, would you describe hotdogs as wholesome?

Nothing can objectively be shown to be true. Everyone has their biases. Everyone will consciously, or subconsciously "color" what they are trying to show you. And everyone "colors" what they have been shown.

The events of the first vision are so removed from me by space and time that the only evidence that I have are a spiritual witness, and the evidence of goodness that the Church brings. I grew up in the Church so believing that fantastic story wasn't hard for me. I often wondered if I was raised outside of the Church, if I would find it. Some years ago I concluded that I would because of my "instinctive" knowledge of good. Lacking as all that sounds, it works for who I am and who I wand to become. And I have taken many deep looks at who I am.

:):):)If you have exhausted all avenues of thought, go with your gut feeling. :):):)

[DigitalShadow]

Nothing can objectively be shown to be true. Everyone has their biases. Everyone will consciously, or subconsciously "color" what they are trying to show you. And everyone "colors" what they have been shown.

No, nothing can be objectively "proven", but science shows things to be objectively true beyond a reasonable doubt for many things.

The events of the first vision are so removed from me by space and time that the only evidence that I have are a spiritual witness, and the evidence of goodness that the Church brings. I grew up in the Church so believing that fantastic story wasn't hard for me. I often wondered if I was raised outside of the Church, if I would find it. Some years ago I concluded that I would because of my "instinctive" knowledge of good. Lacking as all that sounds, it works for who I am and who I wand to become. And I have taken many deep looks at who I am.

I have often wondered if I were born and indoctrinated into a particular church if I would eventually come to the same conclusion I'm at now. I think I probably would, but being taught something your entire life I can imagine how it would be hard to go against that.

:):):)If you have exhausted all avenues of thought, go with your gut feeling. :):):)

My gut feeling tells me religion is wrong