Having Trouble with Our Practices

[NormalMormon]

Women are nurturers. If they had testosterone, then they'd have a propensity to be driven to grunt and break things and blow stuff up all the time, among other things. But they were created differently. They are sensitive and make perfect mothers. It's a beautiful thing. I believe this is why there are more good women than men. Most men are idiots. Okay, maybe not most, but an overwhelming number, I think.

As for the whole out of date and old fashioned thing...rubbish. The world is the same today as it was in the days of creation, the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. Man is just as evil, greedy, manipulative, lascivious and power hungry as ever. The only difference is today we have cars instead of chariots, jeans and t-shirts instead of animal skins and guns instead of spears and arrows. Man is just as divided today liberally and conservatively as in the days of old.

Paragraph one: Well said.

Paragraph two: Why would we need a prophet today if everything were the same today as it was back then? Why does the prophet constantly receive "updated" revelations from God? Things change, people change, there may be some similarities but not enough to say we are still in the stone age. In just 100 short years we've invented the automobile, the computer, the internet, had the feminist and civil rights movements among thousands of other changes. I mean, the automobile shapes half the reason for our political beliefs and foreign relations. And the feminist movement - I don't even understand why it had to happen in the first place. Women should have ALWAYS been equal to men. I just don't get why they weren't. Anyway, the point is.... things may seem similar, but in reality we are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. LATTER Day Saints. Not "let's live in the past" saints.

[skalenfehl]

Paragraph one: Well said.

Paragraph two: Why would we need a prophet today if everything were the same today as it was back then? Why does the prophet constantly receive "updated" revelations from God? Things change, people change, there may be some similarities but not enough to say we are still in the stone age. In just 100 short years we've invented the automobile, the computer, the internet, had the feminist and civil rights movements among thousands of other changes. I mean, the automobile shapes half the reason for our political beliefs and foreign relations. And the feminist movement - I don't even understand why it had to happen in the first place. Women should have ALWAYS been equal to men. I just don't get why they weren't. Anyway, the point is.... things may seem similar, but in reality we are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. LATTER Day Saints. Not "let's live in the past" saints.

Your first statement summed it all up. Everything is the same today as it was back then--wickedness in the world and prophets to speak out against it. The Lord was with His people in the beginning and He is with us today and will be with us when the world ends. If women are not or do not feel equal to men, it is because men are evil and wicked and power hungry and domineering and corrupt, etc. Had there never been an Apostacy, Christ's church would still have apostles and prophets leading His church as He left it when He ascended into heaven. We are living in the present as it was in the past with wickedness in the world and the need for revelation to lead Christ's church.

[NormalMormon]

Your first statement summed it all up. Everything is the same today as it was back then--wickedness in the world and prophets to speak out against it. The Lord was with His people in the beginning and He is with us today and will be with us when the world ends. If women are not or do not feel equal to men, it is because men are evil and wicked and power hungry and domineering and corrupt, etc. Had there never been an Apostacy, Christ's church would still have apostles and prophets leading His church as He left it when He ascended into heaven. We are living in the present as it was in the past with wickedness in the world and the need for revelation to lead Christ's church.

Yes, I agree. The motives are generally the same (wealth, sex, power) for those who commit sins and crime throughout history. And God always finds a way to try and keep the true gospel on Earth.

A little harsh on the men though. Of all the crime, men ARE the ones who statistically commit more of it. But then again, the same goes for those who attempt to fight crime.

[skalenfehl]

I was being a little facetious about most men being idiots. But in all earnestness, man possesses the potential for great good as well as great evil. But even many good men will not desire all that the Lord has to offer them. Hence my opinion for celestial women to outnumber celestial men.

[NormalMormon]

I was being a little facetious about most men being idiots. But in all earnestness, man possesses the potential for great good as well as great evil. But even many good men will not desire all that the Lord has to offer them. Hence my opinion for celestial women to outnumber celestial men.

Yes, I know I come off as some crazy feminist, but really I am playing devil's advocate. I guess we won't really know until we get there. But I just hate being a member of a crowd who are okay with the "ignorance is bliss" theory. To an extent, I can understand not questioning God's motives and teachings. But I was really surprised to see how many people in the church never really think about things like this, and if they do - they reply with a testimony and a claim that "we will find out everything in time." I'm making generalizations, not everyone is that way. But many are.

While I am a college grad, my ultimate goal is to be an excellent mother and wife while running a successful business (if not a few) from home. But I won't sit back and ignore both those desires, and the need for answers to many questions I have.

[the Ogre]

. . . And the feminist movement - I don't even understand why it had to happen in the first place. Women should have ALWAYS been equal to men . . .

I will say that the feminist movement is extremely important for our time. I think many early church leaders were ahead of their time (as are the ones now), but that the members were woefully behind the times (just like now).

Feminism happened because equality did not happen, nor has it existed in the minds and souls of men. It does not exist in the minds of most men even today. Feminism is one of the most important movements in the Latter-days in the church and without. Women are equal. There can be no doubt, but for many (see a parallel thread covering many feminist questions and criticisms of the church) issues resolution has not found. Many men feel the priesthood makes them superior forgetting the priesthood and church membership has nothing to do with status (look at all the idiots in the church who have the priesthood; the L-rd did not intend for stupid people to receive the priesthood, but it still happens).

Equality in the world for all people must be achieved. Members of the church should be at the forefront of movements like feminism and civil-rights. Does this mean we must support the same issues political groups like NOW hold? NO!!!, but we must work to ensure no woman anywhere is coerced to make choices that she would not normally make.

Not only must we as Latter-day Saints battle gender-based oppression, we must fight every kind of oppression.

Your very question shows the need for feminism.

[a-train]

First: Why can't women hold the priesthood?

The priesthood is not the authority to direct, it is the duty to serve. Every good husband knows that the wife has all the authority to direct her husband as her servant.

Second: Why do women have to wear a thing over their face to get married in the temple?

Because they want the man to pay attention.

Third: Why can men get sealed to more than one woman (like after she dies) but women can't get sealed to more than one man? Rather, why can't we all just be sealed to ONE person only?

Because we men need all the opportunities we can get to convince a woman to live with us for eternity.

Fourth: Is it true that in order to get to the CK, BOTH men and women must be married in the temple? Or is that just true for women, and men can still go without a wife?

Entrance in into the CK is not predicated on marriage. The only place I know of that is reserved exclusively for married couples is divorce court.

-a-train

[MorningStar]

Why do you want to hold the priesthood? Because men can and we can't or because you want to spend many hours each week listening to people confessing, asking for help regarding very complex problems, attending meetings, more meetings, etc., all with nothing more than a thank you? I wouldn't want to be bishop and I don't know any men who want to be bishop. The priesthood isn't meant to show how righteous or powerful a person is. Women aren't any less special because we don't hold the priesthood.

[NormalMormon]

Entrance in into the CK is not predicated on marriage. The only place I know of that is reserved exclusively for married couples is divorce court.

-a-train

Actually yes it is.

[NormalMormon]

Why do you want to hold the priesthood? Because men can and we can't or because you want to spend many hours each week listening to people confessing, asking for help regarding very complex problems, attending meetings, more meetings, etc., all with nothing more than a thank you? I wouldn't want to be bishop and I don't know any men who want to be bishop. The priesthood isn't meant to show how righteous or powerful a person is. Women aren't any less special because we don't hold the priesthood.

I think this is an excuse women give because there is nothing they can do to change it. Before the feminist movement, I am sure many women said "Oh, who would want to WORK every day?" It's not that I personally WANT the priesthood. It's the fact that women CAN'T have the priesthood. Everything should be equal. There's nothing that men can't have. If you're going to say "Men can't get pregnant" that's different. That's an unchangeable biological trait, not something that's possible to equalize.

[MorningStar]

I think this is an excuse women give because there is nothing they can do to change it. Before the feminist movement, I am sure many women said "Oh, who would want to WORK every day?" It's not that I personally WANT the priesthood. It's the fact that women CAN'T have the priesthood. Everything should be equal. There's nothing that men can't have. If you're going to say "Men can't get pregnant" that's different. That's an unchangeable biological trait, not something that's possible to equalize.

So it boils down to "That's not fair!"

And there probably are men saying, "That's not fair that I can't have babies and I can't lactate!" (Even though it is very difficult, but it's still a blessing to be able to go through that experience.)

Are women physically capable of carrying out priesthood duties? Yes, of course. But it's not up to us to tell God who He is going to call. We don't know why He calls men to this position and there's no use hassling the prophet about it because he takes his orders from Heavenly Father. This isn't the church telling us we "can't". We just haven't been called. I've never been called to be ward choir director and I am the most musically experienced. I wouldn't demand that calling anymore than I would ask for the priesthood. It should be done by inspiration.

[skalenfehl]

It's not that I personally WANT the priesthood. It's the fact that women CAN'T have the priesthood. Everything should be equal.

I'll play devil's advocate. Please present your case. I'm kind of curious. How would you approach the Lord with this matter? I'm curious about your wisdom and reasoning behind this.

[NormalMormon]

I'll play devil's advocate. Please present your case. I'm kind of curious. How would you approach the Lord with this matter? I'm curious about your wisdom and reasoning behind this.

MORNING STAR - So it boils down to "That's not fair!"

And there probably are men saying, "That's not fair that I can't have babies and I can't lactate!" (Even though it is very difficult, but it's still a blessing to be able to go through that experience.)

Are women physically capable of carrying out priesthood duties? Yes, of course. But it's not up to us to tell God who He is going to call. We don't know why He calls men to this position and there's no use hassling the prophet about it because he takes his orders from Heavenly Father. This isn't the church telling us we "can't". We just haven't been called. I've never been called to be ward choir director and I am the most musically experienced. I wouldn't demand that calling anymore than I would ask for the priesthood. It should be done by inspiration.

Well, I would approach the Lord the exact same way. I would simply ask the question. Why can't women hold the priesthood? Of course I can't speculate as to his answer, but I have a feeling it's not going to be "Because men are better/more responsible/etc.." Why? Because we are ALL his children. No one is "better or worse" because of their sex or biological traits. We are different, but equal. Like apples and oranges. Equal, but different. We should all have access to the same rights, privileges, and duties as our counterparts.

God doesn't always speak to everyone in the same way. Even the Prophet. Maybe God will come right out and tell the Prophet, "Okay, it's time to allow women to hold the priesthood." Maybe he will do it in a different way. Maybe there are more women out there with this concern who aren't willing to address it formally to the Prophet himself. Maybe he will notice more and more women realizing the inequality in the church and it will finally ignore his traditional upbringing and ask God, "Should women hold the priesthood?" I have a feeling very few have asked this question to God.

Just because we have callings or duties, doesn't necessarily mean that they are what we are MEANT to do. I know plenty of people in the church who have revoke their calling because they hate it, or aren't good at it. Just because God hasn't called women to be priesthood holders, doesn't mean it's not going to happen one day. God has His ways, and whether it's up to us to initiate it, or up to Him - He finds a way.

With the whole "bearing children" thing - that's really a non-issue. It's like saying it's unfair because men have penises and we don't, or women have vagina's and boobs and hey, "That's not fair!" God didn't give the priesthood to men because he felt sorry for them. Biological differences have no place in this discussion.

[skalenfehl]

Apples and oranges. So an apple could claim injustice because it wasn't completely round and orange in color? It's still a fruit and sweet tasting. Both come from the ground and edify. I really don't have an answer for your quandary. Only the Lord can answer that for you. Why not study it out and ask the Lord then? I'm actually curious to hear whatever you find out.

[NormalMormon]

Apples and oranges. So an apple could claim injustice because it wasn't completely round and orange in color? It's still a fruit and sweet tasting. Both come from the ground and edify. I really don't have an answer for your quandary. Only the Lord can answer that for you. Why not study it out and ask the Lord then? I'm actually curious to hear whatever you find out.

No, those are biological differences. Like I said, penis:vagina as red:orange. Now, an apple could complain that it doesn't get an equal chance to be eaten by someone. Or an orange could complain that apples have a better chance of being picked. But they don't (well, they're fruit) but if they could they would say "No, we both get equal chance to be eaten and picked." Not men and women. Women can't say "I have an equal chance at being a priesthood holder." I know it's a ridiculous analogy, but it makes sense.

I will pray and read about it. Maybe I will get an answer.

[tubaloth]

First: Why can't women hold the priesthood?

The short answer is, we don't know. God has done it this way, you well

have to ask him. Long answer, there is a differences from the Priesthood

(Church Government) and Power from God (Authority). Woman get Authority to

full fill callings all the time. Even men have to get the authority to do

the callings they have. Church Government on the other had is just men.

(Bishop, Prophet and so forth). Its how God set up his Church to run.

Really (with out getting to deep) The priesthood is just the Faith of God.

The power of God, is his faith, given to men, to run his kingdom. woman

can still have faith (which is power).

Second: Why do women have to wear a thing over their face to get married in

the temple?

I think its more of a tradition thing then anything else. Most of the

clothing worn in the temple is symbolic of something. figure this out,

and you well come to know. (Being a man I see more of the symbolism of the

men clothing then the woman).

Third: Why can men get sealed to more than one woman (like after she dies)

but women can't get sealed to more than one man? Rather, why can't we all

just be sealed to ONE person only?

This is another thing you well have to take up with God. We all assume

different things, but they are all just assuming. I think it has to do

more with a protector, and maybe even something with the priesthood. who

knows.

Fourth: Is it true that in order to get to the CK, BOTH men and women must

be married in the temple? Or is that just true for women, and men can still

go without a wife?

Really BOTH need to be married. If anything Woman have been promised that

they can receive ALL the blessings of God if they live worthy of it, even

CK. Meaning its not held against woman if they don't get married (its not

really there fault). Men are probably a little more held accountable, but

there probably still well be SOME single men in the CK.

[skalenfehl]

It's definitely a legitimate and fair question. Good luck!

[a-train]

Actually yes it is.

Please pardon me, but NO it is not.

'In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.' (D&C 131:1-4)

Only the highest degree mentioned here requires the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. Entrance into the celestial glory does NOT require marriage. It says plainly that a man who does not enter into it, 'may enter into the other' levels of the celestial glory.

-a-train

[kona0197]

What about a man that does not get married here before dying?

[Fiannan]

First: Why can't women hold the priesthood?

Second: Why do women have to wear a thing over their face to get married in the temple?

Third: Why can men get sealed to more than one woman (like after she dies) but women can't get sealed to more than one man? Rather, why can't we all just be sealed to ONE person only?

Fourth: Is it true that in order to get to the CK, BOTH men and women must be married in the temple? Or is that just true for women, and men can still go without a wife?

First, the whole thing about a veil over the face. One could ask, what is the function of clothing anyway? Since the days of Adam and Eve clothing served a ritualistic and symbolic meaning for humans. Even in ancient Egypt, where women often wore silks that were transparent and didn't really hide anything, the clothing itself took on a meaning. In modern society businesses seek to replace meaning with brand names -- buy this and that and belong to our group. The veil is a ritual, it is symbolic of covering the woman and then she uncovers herself before her new husband. Read into this whatever you want but it does lend to the specialness of the marriage. Sure, one could do what they did in the old Soviet Union (or many in modern day Soviet Sweden) and go in your street clothes to the local magistrate and take a marriage oath and get a legal marriage contract but what is so special about that? Our society has done away with rituals (fertility, rites of adulthood, mystic rituals, etc.) but that does not mean we don't long for them...something more meaningful than the everyday. An interesting quote:

Joseph: A ritual is the enactment of a myth. And through the enactment it brings to mind the implications of the life act that you are engaged in. Now, people ask me, what rituals can we have today? My answer is, what are you doing? What is important in your life? What is important, they say, is having dinner with their friends. That isa ritual.

This is the sense of T.S. Eliot's The Cocktail Party. A cocktail party is a ritual. It is a religious function in that way, and those people are engaged in a human relationship thing. This is the Chinese idea, the Confucian idea, that human relationships are the way you experience the Tao. Realize what you're doing when you're giving a cocktail party. You are performing a social ritual. You are conducting it when you sit down to eat a meal, you are consuming a life.

When you're eating something, this is something quite special to do. And you ought to have that thought when you eat a carrot as well as when you eat an animal, it seems to me. But you don't know what you're doing unless you think about it. That's what a ritual does. It give you an occasion to realize what you're doing so that you're participating in the inevitable energy of life in its exchanges. That's what rituals are for; you do things with intention, and not just in the animal way, ravenously, without knowing what you're doing.

This is true also of sex. People who just engage in sex as a fun game, as something exciting like that, don't realize what they're doing. Then you don't have the sacramentalization. And the whole reason marriage is a sacrament is that it lets you know what the hell is correct and what isn't, and what's going on here. A male and female coming together with the possibility of another life coming out of it - that's a big act.

Joseph Campbell

Joseph Campbell - Mythic Reflections

Opps, gotta go...I will address the other questions later.:)

[Misshalfway]

I just wanted to say, again, that we DON'T cover our faces when we get sealed. Ok? My mother is a temple worker. I called her yesterday, just to make sure.

And, I think there are things men can't do...... the maternity ward should make that very clear.

I think God is a giver of gifts. He gives us all that we need to be happy here on earth and to live with him again. His gifts aren't always the same for all of us. Gosh, I wish I could be like Chieko Okasaki or run in a marathon. But those aren't my gifts. I was given other things. The priesthood is a gift fro all to benefit from. And women very much do run this church. Very important parts of it. But their main responsibility is the home. And with the assult on the family the way it is in the world, I am glad God cared enough about the children to prepare women and qualify women to protect and nurture them. Men can run the church and do all that stuff..... but what would the church be without the home? Our roles as men and women, though hard to understand at times, are truly inspired. I have questioned it. But I don't anymore. I think as you, FF, pray to know....God will flesh it out for you.

His ways are not our ways.....He doesn't think like we do here. There is so much we don't understand....Now, I am not saying for a moment that one shouldn't search and question and pray for truth. I actually think many say they trust the Lord or all will be revealed later because they HAVE petitioned the Lord and that is his answer.

I remember in college, my calling was the gospel doctrine teacher. We were teaching the D&C and polygamy came up. I often feel directed to say things when I teach. I felt so strongly that I should testify of polygamy. I personally don't like it... I don't like the idea one bit! But, I obeyed. The Spirit filled that room! It filled the room corner to corner. And the faces of the people before me changed. I knew they were feeling it too! I cannot describe.......

I know I don't know everything. And I am sure the context of this life and all of its injustices cloud our understandings at times. But, I can't deny what I do know. And I can't deny what happened that day in that Sunday School class. It was pure knowledge. No details were given. No answers to my laundry list of questions and objections. Just pure truth.....and deep soul filling comfort.

[Hemidakota]

Actually yes it is.

He is correct. There are three known sub-kingdoms within the Celestial state. The one you mentioned, which the highest level, does require eternal sealed marriage.

[Hemidakota]

The short answer is, we don't know. God has done it this way, you well

have to ask him. Long answer, there is a differences from the Priesthood

(Church Government) and Power from God (Authority). Woman get Authority to

full fill callings all the time. Even men have to get the authority to do

the callings they have. Church Government on the other had is just men.

(Bishop, Prophet and so forth). Its how God set up his Church to run.

Really (with out getting to deep) The priesthood is just the Faith of God.

The power of God, is his faith, given to men, to run his kingdom. woman

can still have faith (which is power).

What is the man's role in the eternalties? Then what is a woman's role? We already have the answers. They both share the priesthood together upon entering into the everlasting covenant. Think about it. "The man is not without the woman, the woman is not without the man."

I think its more of a tradition thing then anything else. Most of the

clothing worn in the temple is symbolic of something. figure this out,

and you well come to know. (Being a man I see more of the symbolism of the

men clothing then the woman).

It is explained in the temple why the woman covers her head.

[Hemidakota]

What about a man that does not get married here before dying?

Based on his worthiness and his works is complete, he will have the opportunity across the veil .

[NormalMormon]

Please pardon me, but NO it is not.

'In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.' (D&C 131:1-4)

Only the highest degree mentioned here requires the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. Entrance into the celestial glory does NOT require marriage. It says plainly that a man who does not enter into it, 'may enter into the other' levels of the celestial glory.

-a-train

Right - in order to get to the CK you need to be married. But for the other levels it's not required.