Having Trouble with Our Practices

[NormalMormon]

He is correct. There are three known sub-kingdoms within the Celestial state. The one you mentioned, which the highest level, does require eternal sealed marriage.

I know, that's what I was saying!

[the Ogre]

What about a man that does not get married here before dying?

It is in this life that one is to perform one's labors.

[skalenfehl]

People who truly did not have the opportunity to do all the Lord requires will have that chance. There are plenty of men and women who have not found their celestial mate in this life, just like there will be those who did not have the chance to hear the gospel. Joseph Smith observed his brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom in a vision, even though he died without having known about the gospel. We will be judged according to our works and desires. If we desire a kingdom, we will pursue it.

[NormalMormon]

Please pardon me, but NO it is not.

'In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.' (D&C 131:1-4)

Only the highest degree mentioned here requires the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. Entrance into the celestial glory does NOT require marriage. It says plainly that a man who does not enter into it, 'may enter into the other' levels of the celestial glory.

-a-train

Before, you said:

Entrance in into the CK is not predicated on marriage. The only place I know of that is reserved exclusively for married couples is divorce court.

So, you don't make sense!

CK=Celestial Kingdom. Which is the highest level. Which is what I was talking about.

HEAVEN isn't reserved for married couples, the CK is.

[NormalMormon]

People who truly did not have the opportunity to do all the Lord requires will have that chance. There are plenty of men and women who have not found their celestial mate in this life, just like there will be those who did not have the chance to hear the gospel. Joseph Smith observed his brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom in a vision, even though he died without having known about the gospel. We will be judged according to our works and desires. If we desire a kingdom, we will pursue it.

Yes, I really like this concept and it's unique to our church. God gives everyone a second chance according to our gospel. It's wonderful.

[Misshalfway]

Yes, I really like this concept and it's unique to our church. God gives everyone a second chance according to our gospel. It's wonderful.

I agree!! Talk about Grace!!

[skalenfehl]

People will have a second chance, but at a price.:

Per lds.org and our own scriptural references:

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have "received the testimony of Jesus" and been "made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood" (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70; 76:92–96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1–6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; "Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, "I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven" (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants D&C 76:71–80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84, D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.

Perdition

Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called "the sons of perdition" and will have to "abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory" (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of "those who know [God's] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God's] power" (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32–49).

[a-train]

Before, you said:

So, you don't make sense!

CK=Celestial Kingdom. Which is the highest level. Which is what I was talking about.

HEAVEN isn't reserved for married couples, the CK is.

No, the Celestial Kingdom comprises all three levels. 'In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees..' Those not sealed can enter into the celestial glory just as the scripture says.

The 'highest level' is NOT the Celestial Kingdom, it is a level WITHIN the celestial kingdom. Those in the other levels are IN the celestial kingdom also.

Look at the quote Skalen printed, it includes this statement: 'From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom.'

-a-train

[MorningStar]

Right - in order to get to the CK you need to be married. But for the other levels it's not required.

That's not what he's saying.

There is the Telestial Kingdom.

Then there's the Terrestrial Kingdom.

Then there's the Celestial Kingdom. Inside the Celestial Kingdom are different levels. Single people can go to the Celestial Kingdom. Single people can't reach the highest level within the Celestial Kingdom (exaltation).

[NormalMormon]

No, the Celestial Kingdom comprises all three levels. 'In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees..' Those not sealed can enter into the celestial glory just as the scripture says.

The 'highest level' is NOT the Celestial Kingdom, it is a level WITHIN the celestial kingdom. Those in the other levels are IN the celestial kingdom also.

Look at the quote Skalen printed, it includes this statement: 'From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom.'

-a-train

So wait - in order to get to the CK you don't have to be married. But to get into the HIGHEST level of the CK, what are the requirements then?

What are the requirements to get into the lowest level of the CK?

[NormalMormon]

People will have a second chance, but at a price.:

Per lds.org and our own scriptural references:

I am more than willing to accept that price, and I am sure everyone else is, or should be.

In other Christian denominations it's either you believe in our God, or go to Hell.

I would rather go to the lowest level of Heaven than Hell. Of course. I think other people need to realize this.

[Hemidakota]

Celestial Kingdom revealed to the prophet is recorded in D&C 131

Doctrine and Covenants 131

[Hemidakota]

Let me add some small info concerning those who are sealed to the Celestial Kingdom but still disobedience; very seldom talked about [recited from Elder Alvin R. Dyer]:

All who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will come forth in the First Resurrection, many in the "morning" or early part. There is, however a circumstance referred to in the revelations, wherein certain individuals, because of disobedience, even though and because they have been sealed to it, will have to wait until the second resurrection to receive their glory, powers, and dominions. Such individuals who have been sealed unto exaltations, but have been disobedient, and yet have not committed MURDER to shed innocent blood, and have not DENIED GOD, His Son, and the Holy Ghost, after having received of a perfect knowledge and testimony of them, after a period of purging in the spirit world, having suffered the "buffetings of Satan" will be redeemed and come forth in the "First Resurrection," after having fully repented and after having made restitution.

Reference: D&C 132:19, 26

[NormalMormon]

Let me add some small info concerning those who are sealed to the Celestial Kingdom but still disobedience; very seldom talked about [recited from Elder Alvin R. Dyer]:

All who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will come forth in the First Resurrection, many in the "morning" or early part. There is, however a circumstance referred to in the revelations, wherein certain individuals, because of disobedience, even though and because they have been sealed to it, will have to wait until the second resurrection to receive their glory, powers, and dominions. Such individuals who have been sealed unto exaltations, but have been disobedient, and yet have not committed MURDER to shed innocent blood, and have not DENIED GOD, His Son, and the Holy Ghost, after having received of a perfect knowledge and testimony of them, after a period of purging in the spirit world, having suffered the "buffetings of Satan" will be redeemed and come forth in the "First Resurrection," after having fully repented and after having made restitution.

Reference: D&C 132:19, 26

I don't get it. Can we put this in lamans terms please?

[Hemidakota]

Those who callings are made sure or received the 'Second Comforter'. They still can be disobedience but will need some additional 'timeout' [humor] prior in receiving the rewards of the Celestial Kingdom.

[Maureen]

Women are nurturers....They are sensitive and make perfect mothers. It's a beautiful thing. I believe this is why there are more good women than men. Most men are idiots. Okay, maybe not most, but an overwhelming number, I think....

Not all women are nurturers. There are actually women out there who are terrible mothers. Just because they're women doesn't mean they are sensitive and have the gift for nurturing. Women can also be abusive.

[NormalMormon]

Not all women are nurturers. There are actually women out there who are terrible mothers. Just because they're women doesn't mean they are sensitive and have the gift for nurturing. Women can also be abusive.

THANK YOU!

[Misshalfway]

Not all women are nurturers. There are actually women out there who are terrible mothers. Just because they're women doesn't mean they are sensitive and have the gift for nurturing. Women can also be abusive.

You are absolutely right, Maureen. And neither are all men wonderful leaders!

We are talking about roles. We are taking in generalities .... not in specifics of personality and character. I think within the application of these roles, the genuine disciple of Christ can learn and become refined thru performing duties within them.

[Guest tomk]

A nurturing soft voice and demeanor are part of womanhood -- and as a man I am grateful to be blessed by that softening influence (to my chagrin, I often need it).

Being nurturing is a choice to be loving and caring, not weak and pathetic.

Christ is very nurturing. Nobody faults Him for it, unless they are evil.

I love Elder Holland's words in a recent General Conference address:

LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Tongue of Angels

Here is an excerpt that I love:

Husbands, you have been entrusted with the most sacred gift God can give you—a wife, a daughter of God, the mother of your children who has voluntarily given herself to you for love and joyful companionship. Think of the kind things you said when you were courting, think of the blessings you have given with hands placed lovingly upon her head, think of yourself and of her as the god and goddess you both inherently are, and then reflect on other moments characterized by cold, caustic, unbridled words. Given the damage that can be done with our tongues, little wonder the Savior said, “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.”5 A husband who would never dream of striking his wife physically can break, if not her bones, then certainly her heart by the brutality of thoughtless or unkind speech. Physical abuse is uniformly and unequivocally condemned in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If it is possible to be more condemning than that, we speak even more vigorously against all forms of sexual abuse. Today, I speak against verbal and emotional abuse of anyone against anyone, but especially of husbands against wives. Brethren, these things ought not to be.

In that same spirit we speak to the sisters as well, for the sin of verbal abuse knows no gender. Wives, what of the unbridled tongue in your mouth, of the power for good or ill in your words? How is it that such a lovely voice which by divine nature is so angelic, so close to the veil, so instinctively gentle and inherently kind could ever in a turn be so shrill, so biting, so acrid and untamed? A woman’s words can be more piercing than any dagger ever forged, and they can drive the people they love to retreat beyond a barrier more distant than anyone in the beginning of that exchange could ever have imagined. Sisters, there is no place in that magnificent spirit of yours for acerbic or abrasive expression of any kind, including gossip or backbiting or catty remarks. Let it never be said of our home or our ward or our neighborhood that “the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity … [burning] among our members.”

May I expand this counsel to make it a full family matter. We must be so careful in speaking to a child. What we say or don’t say, how we say it and when is so very, very important in shaping a child’s view of himself or herself. But it is even more important in shaping that child’s faith in us and their faith in God. Be constructive in your comments to a child—always. Never tell them, even in whimsy, that they are fat or dumb or lazy or homely. You would never do that maliciously, but they remember and may struggle for years trying to forget—and to forgive. And try not to compare your children, even if you think you are skillful at it. You may say most positively that “Susan is pretty and Sandra is bright,” but all Susan will remember is that she isn’t bright and Sandra that she isn’t pretty. Praise each child individually for what that child is, and help him or her escape our culture’s obsession with comparing, competing, and never feeling we are “enough.”

[a-train]

I don't get it. Can we put this in lamans terms please?

Laman's terms? LOL!!!!! Can I use that Normal? That is good.

-a-train

[a-train]

Normal,

Baptism and the ordinances of the temple (BESIDES MARRIAGE) are required for all of those who reach the age of accountability in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Those who die before reaching that age are granted the Celestial Kingdom also. Within the Celestial Kingdom, there is an order of the Priesthood. That order of the Priesthood is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.

The blessing from God that is predicated on temple marriage is that priesthood, that order, that degree within the Celestial Kingdom.

It should be noted that there is no indication that this blessing will be withheld from anyone. The grace, mercy, and power of God is sufficient to make this available to all who desire it whether in this life or otherwise.

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

Even those that seen the Godhead who are still disobedience will have to pay a price.

[NormalMormon]

Laman's terms? LOL!!!!! Can I use that Normal? That is good.

-a-train

Ya like that? Hee hee.

[NormalMormon]

Even those that seen the Godhead who are still disobedience will have to pay a price.

Wow, you're worse than me! LOL

[skalenfehl]

I am more than willing to accept that price, and I am sure everyone else is, or should be.

In other Christian denominations it's either you believe in our God, or go to Hell.

I would rather go to the lowest level of Heaven than Hell. Of course. I think other people need to realize this.

I can't remember which General Authority said it, (I was working today and listening to both sessions on the radio and there was too much info to take notes) but one of them said that salvation is an individual matter but exaltation is a family matter.

We will be granted the kingdom that we have worked to earn. We will be judged by our works and desires. If one does not want to ever get married in the temple or obey the word of wisdom or get baptized, etc. we will be given according to our desire. When we die we will continue on the same path that we blazed in life.

Hell is just that temporary post-mortal place in spirit prison where people will await the resurrection, however in a metaphorical sense hell and damnation is simply the ceasing or stopping (being literally damned) of ever receiving an eternal increase found only with exaltation. Man cannot be exalted without woman and vice versa. Hence exaltation being a family matter as was said today in General Conference.

I've thought more about your concern with equality and why women can't hold the priesthood. I honestly don't have a suitable answer because the Lord hasn't given us that reason, as far as I can tell, but in my estimation, there is no feminism in God's kingdom...or chauvinism, racism, etc. etc.

Isa. 55: 8-9

8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.