john 3:16 question for mormons

[lostnfound]

Great insights..and completely worth answering in detail. I think I can or hope I can clarify. would probably be easier in person and with a bible but..I will post later on this..in the meantime read those scripture reference I gave you so we can be on the same page. :) I will write on this tonight.:)

I was reading a book on mormon the other day and when the chapter came to grace/works it said mormons might have a hard time with this concept. I thought to myself at the time..why? It is so simple..but I have come into more mormons then not that do kinda scratch their head like what?? Why would it be so confusing. Partly due to definitions..so that is why I was giving you definitions first.

Did you have the chance to read all those scripture references..I was hoping that would put everything into context.

Romans chapter 4 read in reference to abraham.. How was righteousness credited to him? Was it through works? chapter 4 tells us it was becouse he believed God..

[lostnfound]

I think I can see what you are trying to say. I hope you can see that we are really not that different.

I am trying to interpret your terminology correctly, so forgive me if I don't get it spot on.

Justification. Yes. We believe this concept too. It happens for us, at baptism. Isn't this similar to being born again? or becoming converted to Christ?

Sanctification. Yes. We believe in this process as well. For us, we are sanctified and cleansed at baptism. We are given a new heart and a fresh start as our sins are cleansed and we are made clean. But sanctication for us is a process that continues beyond baptism as our natures are refined. It is thru the deliberate righteous and correct choices that we make in all areas of our lives that help us to become refined. This process is at the core of the Grace of our Lord. Because I can choose.....but I can't sanctify myself. That is his gift. And because God follows eternal law, if I obey, he must follow with the blessing. Logic follows the other direction as well -- God can sanctify and save, but he won't until I choose him.

Glorification....it sounds like you are saying what we call exhaltation. We believe that basically salvation and Exhaltation are the same thing. We believe that there are degrees to salvation that are only granted after this life. Part of salvation is resurrection. THis gift is for every single soul without exception. But there is a spiritual salvation that will be determined by judgement according our works....whatevery they were. This will happen for every soul. Then a just salvation will be granted.

That is why we sometimes struggle with the phrase "I got saved" because it implies that God has made his final decision about a soul long before the judgement day. That is why we prefer the term born again or sometimes we simplify it even more by referring to membership. I think we are basically saying the same thing.

I feel like there is a discrepancy in your description. Perhaps you can explain. I hear you....and others say that we will be judged according to our choices. In my mind, choices and works are the same thing. I think that God gives commandments. I think he expects us to obey. Particularly if we have experienced spiritual manifestations in our lives. With more knowledge comes more responsibility. When you say that a person can't earn salvation. I see what you are saying. And I too feel a great reverence for the Grace of God! But, I don't understand how one can be saved and need judgement at the same time. Perhaps the concepts we believe are closer than the words we choose to use to explain them. I think that without commandments clearly laid out for the children of men to follow, confusion then spreads. I think there is much in the way of confusion in the Christian world. I think there is much in the way of variety in definition of what the Lord expects. I feel confused when I hear that I must be saved.....but then must choose correctly or I will go to hell.....but that I can't earn my salvation because I am not suppose to do works....but if I don't do good works then I am evil. Do you see my confusion? Prolly not explaining it well. Hmph! I get that at conversion, the nature changes. But I don't see that the process makes one perfect. What better than a requirement to obey is there to keep the children of men in the right way? And if a person is saved, but does sin, what are his consequences? How can he be unclean and achieve salvation? he would have to repent and restore obedience. Would he not?

The bible does not say that the believers face judgement..but they will face God at the end of life and be judged according their deeds..but the non believe will face judgement and be sent to hell. Salvation has nothing to do with works and that includes baptisim. Salvation is like what john 6:47 "Verily, verily I say unto you, He that believith on me hath everlasting life. and again in eph 2:8-9 and titus 3:5-6 say the same thing. It is all over the bible. Salvation is a free gift. you can't earn it. Someone had mentioned adolph hitler. What makes his crime any worse then mine? Is sin on different levels in lds doctrine? Sin in God's eyes is sin. it seperates us from God and the penality for sin is death. That is why Christ came to pay that penality once and for all on the cross.

Now as believers and I mean true believers that saved by grace alone..should be be obedient through to baptism Yes..and obeying Yes...because I love him and want to keep his commandents I will.

Did I clarify your question? If not just ask again. It is a wordy concept and hard to type out all the scripture references.

[drjme]

Jesus commanded them to go unto the nations baptizing them, Jesus made it it a point to be baptized..The gospels talk about all throughout..I believe its important. very important. But it does not justify you unto salvation.

It is a interesting take to say that Faith is a work..Faith is a heart change that happens with someone. It is turning away of sin and saying in one's heart Lord, I need you..I can't do anything to earn my way to heaven

(As romans and James so clearly tells us what God thinks of our works) it was paid in full on the cross.

If you are think that I said faith is a work, I did not. I compared baptism to a work, as in an action. you could say that it is a fruit of faith.

It always seems to come back to 'you are not saved by baptism alone' or 'you are not saved by works alone'. And LDS agree with that. But it is like without each aspect (faith,works,grace) if you are missing one the others are redundant.

eg.

-For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,

- But we believe (faith) that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

-Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

- But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

-Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

-Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cpurgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

-Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

For instance you may have faith and not be baptized, or you may be baptized and not have any faith, or you may have faith be baptized but then turn around and bring forth corrupt fruit or works, or you may do good works and not have faith or be baptized. All which affect your salvation/exaltation to the Celestial Kingdom.

And this is where the Glories of the Kingdoms comes in, but thats a different story altogether.

so IMHO the relationship between all aspects (faith in Christ ,grace of Christ, works to express my faith in Christ etc) is what potentially secures salvation for men. not one aspect alone.

[Brother Dorsey]

as far as mary have sexual relations with God..okay

maybe not all mormons agree on their own doctrine then...

Huh? Dude.....This was never LDS doctrine....ever. Christ was concieved by the Spirit perod. You really need to stop getting your "Mormon Doctrine" info from anti-Mormons, ex-Mormons and their web sites.

[Brother Dorsey]

Really??!! That is facinating to me. Where is that in the lds doctrine? Is it on a website I can look up I wonder? If the lds teaches there is a heavenely mother which is what I too had always understood about lds then wouldn't that person be mary?

LOL....Dude...listen to Kona....The idea of a Heavenly Mother is not and never has been doctrine or canon of the church.

[skalenfehl]

LOL....Dude...don't listen to Kona....he's not LDS as a matter of fact he's more on the anti side of things. The idea of a Heavenly Mother is not and never has been doctrine or canon of the church.

Kona isn't anti, though he has in the past said many negative things, lol. He has apologized and expressed his beliefs recently.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/10835-general-apology-everyone.html

As for believing in Christ and being saved...I have always and I will always believe in Jesus Christ. He is my Savior. Lostnfound by your understanding, I will be saved.

[Brother Dorsey]

one more thought..the scriptures also tell us No one has seen God..but then the bible must be a fake to lds because someone had to see him at some point if he was man like us that turned into a God. Can current mormons remark on this at all? Am I completely out to lunch on lds teaching of God was once a man that evolved into a God. Can anybody deny this teaching?

Really? The Bible says no one has seen God? Moses didn't see God? Adam didn't walk with Him in the garden? WOW...and I suppose you are going to say that Christ was not God now huh?

Dude, These are anti-Mormon questions and they are very very old...get some new ones....or better yet go to lds.org or mormon.org either one of those websites can clear up the misconceptions that you have been taught about Christ's true church.

[skalenfehl]

Lostnfound, was Christ not born of Mary and grew into manhood? Did Christ not walk the earth? Was he not a man? Is He not God? What is hard about this to understand?

We went over all of this in another thread with another forum member:

http://www.lds.net/forums/christian-beliefs-board/10265-nature-god.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/christian-beliefs-board/10132-some-questions-mormons.html

[Brother Dorsey]

I will soon be going into ministry full time and this only helps me better understand lds.

Well, this explains it then......you just get out of "How to testify to a Mormon" class?

Please understand something here....We have all heard this same crud for years.....it's been beaten to death. You are just like all the rest....you ask us the same twisted questions but really could care less when we straighten out the question and give you an honest answer. If you really wanted to know what we believe you'd accept our answers and move on instead of telling us what we believe is wrong.....Same old, same old

[Brother Dorsey]

In all due respect..by your own admission of forgiveness of sins of how lds get forgiveness of sins you are claiming a works based salvation. Baptism does not save you. YOu said I quote "we must continue in obedience and repentace thru out our lifes" This is same argument Catholics love to use. Have you ever read through romans and James.. without the lds commentary to interepret for you? Just read through this books they are life changing books.

Dude.....Revelations is a life saving book too....what do you make of this then:

Rev. 20: 12-13

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So, you still don't believe you will be judged by your works? And as far as you believe, I take it if we are all saved through Christ and no works persay....then preytell, Why are we judged by our works? What is the purpose then? I mean if we are saved by Christ's grace alone then why the need to judge our works as it CLEARLY states in the Bible?

[Brother Dorsey]

There are a couple of things that I do not understand how the lds reconsile to the scriptures. It would be nice to better understand these questions like in my original post..but that does not mean I am ignorant to the scriptures.

And herein lies the problem....as LDS we have continuing revelation from God, We have additional scriptures which clarify the Bible, again, from God, We have the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Bible is great and it's the word of God....but it's not the entire word....He wasn't finished speaking to us and guiding us. We've been given more truth and so, yes, to you, one who has only a part of the word of God until you receive the fullness you will never be able to reconcile the Lords Gospel with just the Bible alone.

[Brother Dorsey]

Remember the thief on the cross was not baptized.

Yes but someday he will be.......

[kona0197]

LOL....Dude...don't listen to Kona....he's not LDS as a matter of fact he's more on the anti side of things. The idea of a Heavenly Mother is not and never has been doctrine or canon of the church.

I suggest you read my apology thread. I'm not anti-Mormon.

As far as talking about the heavenly mother I know that LDS has no teachings on the subject. I brought it up because I used to discuss it with my former missionaries.

[WillowTheWhisp]

The bible does not say we are saved by grace after all we can do. That is not a scripture. That is LDS teaching.

It is both LDS doctrine and scripture because the Book of Mormon (from which you seem to realise that is a direct quote) IS scripture. However, simply because the words I used are taken directly as a quote from the Book of Mormon does not lessen the fact that the concept itself is Biblical. I was impressed that you seem to recognise the quotation though.

But I agree with you works and faith do go hand in hand..I will clarify this later tonight..what exactly I mean.

This is precisely the LDS viewpoint. We do not claim to earn our salvation by works at the expense of the free gift of grace. If I remember correctly that was a Catholic idea during the middle ages when people literally believed they could buy their salvation through the sale of 'indulgences'. Similar things happened in the Catholic church when I attended where people paid for masses to be said on behalf of deceased relatives or friends in the hope that it would get them to Heaven quicker.

It is a common misconception amongst anti-Mormons that we preach that we must earn our free gift of grace. This is nonsense. What we do teach is what Paul taught to the Ephesians after he had told them that they were saved by grace through their faith, that it was a gift from God and not by their works 'lest any man should boast'. He then goes on to say:" For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

I am NOT anti Mormon. I'm currently on my way to join the Church. I know the Gospel is true.

I've noticed the difference in your enquiring posts Kona, where when you are given the answers you take them on board and think about them and accept the truth, whereas someone who simply comes here to save us all from being brainwashed doesn't actually consider the replies they are given but simply continues to insist that we are wrong.

[kona0197]

Funny how some members are still convinced I am here to ruin the site eh?

[WillowTheWhisp]

There are a couple of things that I do not understand how the lds reconsile to the scriptures.

Everything we teach is reconcilable to the scriptures. We study the Old Testament and New Testament as well as the Book of Mormon and our latter day scriptures (Doctrine & Covenants etc) on a 4 yearly cycle. At present in our adult Sunday School class we are studying the Book of Mormon. My daughter in her seminary lessons is studying the Old Testament.

Unfortunately..not every mormon i have talked to agree with their own doctrine. Which is true in christian churches as well. So getting to the core of the churches teachings is sometimes hard to do. Some say oh no we do not teach that..etc..and you can read it right on the church website for example. :)

You need to remember that not every Mormon has been brought up in the church and not every one has studied every teaching. We're all working on it. We are also encouraged to study things for ourselves so we are all at different stages of progression. I've even met people from 'trinitarian' churches who when you talk to them don't actually believe in the Trinity and aren't aware that their church preaches that.

The bible does not say that the believers face judgement..but they will face God at the end of life and be judged according their deeds..but the non believe will face judgement and be sent to hell.

That sounds a bit like semantics to me. If we face God in order to be judged is not that God making a judgement? Your interpretation of the word 'judgement' sounds more like my understanding of the word 'punishment'.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Funny how some members are still convinced I am here to ruin the site eh?

Maybe they've just missed your more recent posts - it is a fast moving site and I miss lots of stuff.

[Brother Dorsey]

I suggest you read my apology thread. I'm not anti-Mormon.

As far as talking about the heavenly mother I know that LDS has no teachings on the subject. I brought it up because I used to discuss it with my former missionaries.

If this is the case now then I retract my statement.....sorry!

[Hemidakota]

Nothing is more greater than ones honor and intergerity.

[Misshalfway]

I was reading a book on mormon the other day and when the chapter came to grace/works it said mormons might have a hard time with this concept. I thought to myself at the time..why? It is so simple..but I have come into more mormons then not that do kinda scratch their head like what?? Why would it be so confusing. Partly due to definitions..so that is why I was giving you definitions first.

Did you have the chance to read all those scripture references..I was hoping that would put everything into context.

Romans chapter 4 read in reference to abraham.. How was righteousness credited to him? Was it through works? chapter 4 tells us it was becouse he believed God..

I don't think it is that we don't understand the concept. I understand very clearly what you are saying and the differences between your position and our position. I think we read the same scriptures and understand them differently. Where you say baptism is not necessary, we feel it is essential. Where you say faith in the only requirement to obtain grace, we feel is an incomplete description of what is required of the sincere disciple of Christ.

I am smiling as you ask me to read and feel that will clear everything up. The truth is, we read the same passage and understand it very differently. The problem we have with a singular appeal to the bible for clarification, is this very problem. Too many of us.....and even the general Christian world as you illustrated in an earlier post, read that book and interpret it in all sorts of interesting ways. I find so much confusion in the world. That is why we (LDS) rely on personal revelation. We read and study and then pray for Father's guidance on how and what to believe about what we read.

Just for clarification, it was me that characterized faith as a work. I was trying to illustrate the relationship between faith and works and didn't explain that well. For simplicity, I do not think faith is a work. I do think it is a choice that comes from within man. In that sense.....it feels like a work to me because faith without works is dead. Anyway....forget I said it.

On to Heavenly Mother. This is a sacred topic. And very difficult to discuss here. She is not Mary. Mary is a human just like the rest of us. It is not a fundamental doctrine and only makes sense if you understand the more basic stuff.

How Mary got pregnant is God's business. He hasn't shared with us how that happened. It is important to understand that he was human because of his mother, and deity because of his father. We believe that God created man. We believe that Jesus was created in the flesh just like we were. But we believe that Jesus was with the father in the pre-earth life and that we were there too. We believe there was a war in heaven and Jesus emerged as the one who would offer that great sacrifice to help us all return to the father. We are all spirit children of Father. Jesus was the first born. I know that is different than what you believe. Jesus is the Son of the Almighty. He is our savior. He died and paid for our sins. He is absolutely the creator of this earth. He did so under the direction of the father. We don't pray to Jesus. We pray to God the Father thru Jesus who is our mediator with him.

With regards to judgement, I can't accept your descriptions. And this is why. First, it is confusing. Second it doesn't address personal responsibility. It doesn't meet the demands of justice. It doesn't explain to me all of the scriptures....only some of them. It doesn't explain the punishments God has inflicted on his children. It doesn't explain the numerous states of apostacy that the people drifted into and God's displeasure with that. David is one example. And the Israelites are another. It doesn't explain what happens to a soul in personal apostacy. It doesn't make sense in my personal life as I struggle with my own human-ness and appeal to the grace of God to help me change. I see a constant need in my own life.....even after profound conversion....to become more like the Savior. I can't do it on my own. It is his very purpose to provide Grace.

Both the Father and the Son obey eternal law. If they didn't, they would cease to be God. Why do you think there had to be a sacrifice made in the first place? It was to satisfy the eternal law. Sin MUST be paid for one way or the other. Christ paid for our sins.....but if we don't obey, we will have to pay for our own sins. We have to follow the same law or suffer the consequences. When we are obedient, he can change our nature. That is why faith is necessary in bringing the atoning power. It is obedience that is happening there. But that obedience is not confined to faith alone. There are other steps....and actions. Like repentance for example. Faith is important. But repentance is such an important piece. Being sorry. Making restitution with all we have wronged. These are essential components. Christ's sacrifice is vital and all powerful....but without our obedience, the blessings of that sacrifice can't take effect. He can't cleanse the rebellious...in any stage of rebelliousness. And we all will face father in heaven to give a report of our lives. We will be judged according to our knowledge and stewardship and choices. No one is exempt from the judgement. I think that believing that judgement is only for non-believers is an incomplete: too merciful for some, and too merciless for others.

[Hemidakota]

Romans 4:2, Joseph Smith change the wording:

"For if Abraham were justified by the Law of works, he hath glory in himself; but not of God."

Mere belief is not going to help you since third host of Heaven believed in God [openly] and were casted down due to their own arrogance and refusal to change.

It is more of a subtle implication from Paul [see Gal 3:6] Abraham was justified. Why? It was another way of saying that because of Abraham's faithfullness before the Lord, Abraham was justified. In so saying this to the Romans and Galatians, it was not necessary to have the Law of Moses in order to obtain salvation. For a broader content, see Romans 3:20-28, 4:25, 5:1-21

[lostnfound]

Romans 4:2, Joseph Smith change the wording:

"For if Abraham were justified by the Law of works, he hath glory in himself; but not of God."

Mere belief is not going to help you since third host of Heaven believed in God [openly] and were casted down due to their own arrogance and refusal to change.

It is more of a subtle implication from Paul [see Gal 3:6] Abraham was justified. Why? It was another way of saying that because of Abraham's faithfullness before the Lord, Abraham was justified. In so saying this to the Romans and Galatians, it was not necessary to have the Law of Moses in order to obtain salvation. For a broader content, see Romans 3:20-28, 4:25, 5:1-21

There is this strange theology floating around call No-Lordship salvation Has anybody heard of it? I saw it on a lds formal site. I think it was lds.org..Anyways The LDS site was actually alligning itself with John Mcarthur rather then Hodges on the debate because John is in the Lordship camp. We will be attending the Mcarthur school this fall. So i am personally in the mcarthur camp all the way.

Let me summarize for you. The no lordship say's all we have to do is have a head knowledge basically a head belief to get to heaven. WE don't have to make him Lord of our life and we don't have to repent!! The NO Lordship salvation in opinion is a false doctirine. So I agree with you..we can't just "Believe" or have a head knowledge of him..Even satan knows Jesus and trembles at his name.. But a True belief will produce a repentant heart and it will produce a desire to obey or good works. This is what a true saving faith would look like. But it is not something you can manufacture. It has to come when someone understands they are a sinner going to hell with out Christ.

[Misshalfway]

But it is not something you can manufacture. It has to come when someone understands they are a sinner going to hell with out Christ.

But even after all the faith and change and devotion....and even on our best days we are all tempted from the adversary or satan to make sinful choices. And so we make mistakes. We sin. Even though we know it isn't right. What do we do then? Because of cleanliness is disrupted and only clean things can enter into the presence of God. We must repent and make it right again....and Christ thru his grace, cleanses us again. This is a life long process of continual course corrections. We won't stop being tempted just because we believe in Christ. In fact, the temptations may increase. And because all of us will make mistakes throughout the course of our lives, the atonement is always there. That is a tremendous message of hope! The key is choosing it. Many know what is right, and don't choose it. And they will be judged against their knowledge. IF my son steals, I know he knows better, and I hold him to that standard. God does too.

[WillowTheWhisp]

There is this strange theology floating around call No-Lordship salvation Has anybody heard of it? I saw it on a lds formal site. I think it was lds.org..Anyways The LDS site was actually alligning itself with John Mcarthur rather then Hodges on the debate because John is in the Lordship camp. We will be attending the Mcarthur school this fall. So i am personally in the mcarthur camp all the way.

Let me summarize for you. The no lordship say's all we have to do is have a head knowledge basically a head belief to get to heaven. WE don't have to make him Lord of our life and we don't have to repent!! The NO Lordship salvation in opinion is a false doctirine. So I agree with you..we can't just "Believe" or have a head knowledge of him..Even satan knows Jesus and trembles at his name.. But a True belief will produce a repentant heart and it will produce a desire to obey or good works. This is what a true saving faith would look like. But it is not something you can manufacture. It has to come when someone understands they are a sinner going to hell with out Christ.

I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by 'the McArthur camp' and 'the Hodges camp' - are you saying that an official LDS website was agreeing with or disagreeing with the idea that all you need is 'head knowledge'? LDS doctrine specifically states that simply knowing about Jesus is not enough. We need faith, repentance baptism and the Holy Ghost.

It seems from what you have said that we at least agree that head knowledge as you call it is not enough, that even Satan knows Jesus. Again you have said that a true belief produces the desire to obey and do good works. This again is exactly the LDS stance which you seem to criticise us for. I'm puzzled.

[Hemidakota]

If 'Head knowledge' refers to receiving the Second Comforter, then the person doesn't have clue.