Jesus was created.

[Traveler]

One of the interesting discussions between those of the restored theology of the LDS and the traditional Trinitarian Christian theology concerns a distinction between mankind and the mediator G-d for man, Jesus the Christ. This distinction is brought to bear in the notion that Jesus is the creator and mankind is the created – implying that there can never be logical overlap or similarity between Jesus and mankind. This is because of the restored LDS notion that G-d’s intended destiny of man is that man become exalted as G-d and behave in all things according to G-d’s divine example.

The scripture used by the traditional Trinitarian Christian is from the Gospel of John chapter one. In verses 1 and 2 it is argued that the Word has always been and is the creator of all things. So far so good. Note verse 3 that reads as follows: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” The reason that verse 3 in important to this discussion is because of the particular word “made”. We learn by this scripture that the notion and expressions of “made” and “creation” are used inner changeably throughout the scriptures. When it is said that something was made it means the same thing as that thing being created.

Now let us look at verse 14: “And the Word was MADE flesh, and dwelt among, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

I have made special emphasis in this verse of the word “made”. This is to show that Jesus was created in the flesh. The Gospel of Luke goes into rather great detail to demonstrate that the creation of Jesus in the womb of his mother Mary is not unlike the creation of all mankind that likewise are a creation of the flesh.

I realize that understanding Jesus as he was created as a physical tabernacle (or temple) is not a full disclosure of all his eternal attributes. I only point out from scripture, acceptable to all Christians, that Jesus was created in the flesh. All things are possible to G-d. It is not impossible that a creation of G-d be both a creator and the created.

The Traveler

[BenRaines]

Traveler, I love those verses in John and am baffled by those who do not accept a pre-mortal life. No where in the verses does it say that Jesus, in spirit, did not exist, only that he existed and created all things under the direction of the Father and then obtained mortality.

Thanks for sharing the thought.

Ben Raines

[lostnfound]

One of the interesting discussions between those of the restored theology of the LDS and the traditional Trinitarian Christian theology concerns a distinction between mankind and the mediator G-d for man, Jesus the Christ. This distinction is brought to bear in the notion that Jesus is the creator and mankind is the created – implying that there can never be logical overlap or similarity between Jesus and mankind. This is because of the restored LDS notion that G-d’s intended destiny of man is that man become exalted as G-d and behave in all things according to G-d’s divine example.

The scripture used by the traditional Trinitarian Christian is from the Gospel of John chapter one. In verses 1 and 2 it is argued that the Word has always been and is the creator of all things. So far so good. Note verse 3 that reads as follows: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” The reason that verse 3 in important to this discussion is because of the particular word “made”. We learn by this scripture that the notion and expressions of “made” and “creation” are used inner changeably throughout the scriptures. When it is said that something was made it means the same thing as that thing being created.

Now let us look at verse 14: “And the Word was MADE flesh, and dwelt among, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

I have made special emphasis in this verse of the word “made”. This is to show that Jesus was created in the flesh. The Gospel of Luke goes into rather great detail to demonstrate that the creation of Jesus in the womb of his mother Mary is not unlike the creation of all mankind that likewise are a creation of the flesh.

I realize that understanding Jesus as he was created as a physical tabernacle (or temple) is not a full disclosure of all his eternal attributes. I only point out from scripture, acceptable to all Christians, that Jesus was created in the flesh. All things are possible to G-d. It is not impossible that a creation of G-d be both a creator and the created.

The Traveler

Traveler..:)

john 1 verse 14 does say made in kjv but in Nkjv it says became..but here is another thing to consider..he took on the likeness of humanity he became one of us supernaturally.

Since Jesus created all things, He could not have been one of the "created things." Paul then adds, so there can be no mistake, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together"

[Guest tomk]

There is a Father in Heaven, equal in power to the Son.

It was the Father who made it possible for Jesus' Spirit body to have a tabernacle of flesh. The "Only Begotten."

[Traveler]

Traveler..:)

john 1 verse 14 does say made in kjv but in Nkjv it says became..but here is another thing to consider..he took on the likeness of humanity he became one of us supernaturally.

Since Jesus created all things, He could not have been one of the "created things." Paul then adds, so there can be no mistake, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together"

Just so I understand what you are saying: You claim that the scriptures do not support - in any way; that the flesh body of Jesus was created and therefore existed before the world or anything else was?

I know it is often difficult to speak of such things to a Trinitarian but again in scriptures that should be acceptable to all Christians in Luke 24:39 the scriptures testify that the body (which could not be found in verse 3) was manifested unto the 11 (except Judas) as well as others; was a body of flesh and bones that was created.

I also thank you for pointing out that the Word “became flesh” - so that we know from that point on, that the Word (which is eternal) "became" forever more, a being of flesh. Or are you going to tell me; that which defines and is G-d is not everlasting? I do believe the scriptures testify that the Jesus (including his body of flesh and bones) did ascend to that eternal place where all things continue forever known as heaven.

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

Traveler, I love those verses in John and am baffled by those who do not accept a pre-mortal life. No where in the verses does it say that Jesus, in spirit, did not exist, only that he existed and created all things under the direction of the Father and then obtained mortality.

Thanks for sharing the thought.

Ben Raines

This is something that surprises me as well. The idea of a pre-earth life make so much sense to my mind and my spirit.

It seems so simple to me. Yes Jesus is eternal and existed before the creation of the earth. The only difference is that we are eternal beings as well and existed with Him in that premortal realm.

I see that Jesus was spirit, was born of the flesh the same way we were. He didn't just appear to the world as flesh for our sakes. He was actually born and his mother gave him the attributes of human-ness while his father gave him the attributes of deity. He lived and was killed. His body was then resurrected. All flesh and bone restored. The tomb was empty! And he appeared to the apostles and spent days with them as a resurrected being and instructed them to testify of the things they saw. He didn't come to them as a spirit being and ask them to testify of that state of being. There are eternal processes by which spirit is organized and by which flesh is organized. Jesus had to follow those laws just like we do. It is not some mystical power that gives God his abilities. It is obedience to eternal law. Obedience is the first law of heaven.

[lostnfound]

Just so I understand what you are saying: You claim that the scriptures do not support - in any way; that the flesh body of Jesus was created and therefore existed before the world or anything else was?

I know it is often difficult to speak of such things to a Trinitarian but again in scriptures that should be acceptable to all Christians in Luke 24:39 the scriptures testify that the body (which could not be found in verse 3) was manifested unto the 11 (except Judas) as well as others; was a body of flesh and bones that was created.

I also thank you for pointing out that the Word “became flesh” - so that we know from that point on, that the Word (which is eternal) "became" forever more, a being of flesh. Or are you going to tell me; that which defines and is G-d is not everlasting? I do believe the scriptures testify that the Jesus (including his body of flesh and bones) did ascend to that eternal place where all things continue forever known as heaven.

The Traveler

I agree with you about Luke except one thing. He was in a resurrected body. He had bones and flesh and looked like his earthly body except he possessed other qualities that could go through grave clothes and tomb and vanish before them in their site as the previous verses state..more like a spirit. Not only him as an example but the scriptures also state when we go to heaven we will recognize those in heaven our loved ones..so they to would have resurrected bodies.

I can not find one scripture verse that states that Jesus had a earthly body pre existence in this earth..but we do know that he is God and created all thing and nothing came into existence without him creating it. I know if you created everything then you are not created..unless you add the teaching "on this planet"..I can't find one evidence in the bible that supports multiple Gods to support the idea that Jesus was created. But the bible does support jesus supernaturally coming into Mary. Are you saying that Mary had sex with God? or are you saying that God and some Goddess had sex and concieved Jesus and then supernaturally came into mary? that was my question a while back but I don't think anybody answered it very clearly.

[Traveler]

Often the choice of words can communicate rather bazaar concepts. I prefer to use the term divinely appointed creation of life in partnership with G-d. Marriage is instituted, appointed by and commanded by G-d. The term “sex” can include many things other than the sacred nature of creation.

We do have some details provided in scripture about the creation of the Christ child.

• Mary was involved with G-d to create the Christ child’s flesh and bones body.
• Mary was the Mother of the Christ child.
• G-d was the Father of the Christ child.
• The flesh of Christ did not exist prior to the creation which was completed with the birth of the Christ child.

The Word became the son of man, also known as Jesus with the creation of the flesh of the Christ child. Prior to the birth of Jesus the Word was the means of creation and thus was the creator. With the creation and birth of Jesus and the Word becoming flesh and Jesus became the created. Thus Jesus is both the creator and the created.

It is interesting that Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body of flesh and bones. This incorruptible body is still apart of the soul of Jesus in heaven to be forever more. In other words G-d currently has a resurrected everlasting body of flesh and bones.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Matthew 1:18 says "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (bold mine)

so how does that account for the Father being his literal father as Mary is his literal Mother?

[Vanhin]

Matthew 1:18 says "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (bold mine)

so how does that account for the Father being his literal father as Mary is his literal Mother?

It's a miracle. Nevertheless, He is the literal Son of God, and Mary was a virgin when he was born.

Vanhin

[Dr T]

I agree that it was miraculous and I understand that we are told she was a virgin but I also know that the Father is not the Holy Ghost. So again, the question is "how does that account for the Father being Jesus' literal father as Mary is his literal Mother"? Thank you

[Vanhin]

I agree that it was miraculous and I understand that we are told she was a virgin but I also know that the Father is not the Holy Ghost. So again, the question is "how does that account for the Father being Jesus' literal father as Mary is his literal Mother"? Thank you

It's a miracle! We don't know how it happened, but it did, and God the Father is the literal Father of Jesus Christ.

But it shouldn't seem that hard for us to think that God could accomplish such a thing, considering we mere mortals have been able to figure out artificial insemination, for instance. Even though a doctor may have performed the procedure, there's no confusion about who the father is, right?

But we really don't know how it happened. We know Mary was a virgin, and we know Jesus Christ is both the spirit Son and the physical Son of God the Father; thus His Only Begotten in the flesh.

Vanhin

[Dr T]

yes "only" as in "unique"

[Vanhin]

yes "only" as in "unique"

You'll get no argument from me on that point! Even before He was born into mortality, he was like unto God (Abr. 3:24), and he was God, the creator of heaven and the earth, and all things that are in them.

And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. (Mosiah 3:8)

Of all the children of God, he is the only one begotten in the flesh. He will forever have the emblems on his hands and feet of the Atonement, he is the Redeemer of all mankind, and because of him we may become joint heirs with him in the eternal worlds to come. He is who has made the work of the Father possible for generations past and generations to come, which work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39).

That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:24)

When I shall see Him again, I will kneel at his feet and bathe them in my tears, for He is my Lord and my God, and I will forever worship Him like I do our Father.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

The scripture used by the traditional Trinitarian Christian is from the Gospel of John chapter one. In verses 1 and 2 it is argued that the Word has always been and is the creator of all things. So far so good. Note verse 3 that reads as follows: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” The reason that verse 3 in important to this discussion is because of the particular word “made”. We learn by this scripture that the notion and expressions of “made” and “creation” are used inner changeably throughout the scriptures. When it is said that something was made it means the same thing as that thing being created.

Now let us look at verse 14: “And the Word was MADE flesh, and dwelt among, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

I have made special emphasis in this verse of the word “made”. This is to show that Jesus was created in the flesh. The Gospel of Luke goes into rather great detail to demonstrate that the creation of Jesus in the womb of his mother Mary is not unlike the creation of all mankind that likewise are a creation of the flesh.

I realize that understanding Jesus as he was created as a physical tabernacle (or temple) is not a full disclosure of all his eternal attributes. I only point out from scripture, acceptable to all Christians, that Jesus was created in the flesh. All things are possible to G-d. It is not impossible that a creation of G-d be both a creator and the created.

The Traveler

Isn't the Greek translation for this word 'MADE', is 'GINOMAI'?

[Hemidakota]

I agree with you about Luke except one thing. He was in a resurrected body. He had bones and flesh and looked like his earthly body except he possessed other qualities that could go through grave clothes and tomb and vanish before them in their site as the previous verses state..more like a spirit. Not only him as an example but the scriptures also state when we go to heaven we will recognize those in heaven our loved ones..so they to would have resurrected bodies.

I can not find one scripture verse that states that Jesus had a earthly body pre existence in this earth..but we do know that he is God and created all thing and nothing came into existence without him creating it. I know if you created everything then you are not created..unless you add the teaching "on this planet"..I can't find one evidence in the bible that supports multiple Gods to support the idea that Jesus was created. But the bible does support jesus supernaturally coming into Mary. Are you saying that Mary had sex with God? or are you saying that God and some Goddess had sex and concieved Jesus and then supernaturally came into mary? that was my question a while back but I don't think anybody answered it very clearly.

Remember the term VIRGIN was still use after she was found with child. There was no sex involved. Even today, we can accomplish the same with latest technology.

[Hemidakota]

Matthew 1:18 says "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (bold mine)

so how does that account for the Father being his literal father as Mary is his literal Mother?

Author viewpoint of what was received and what was wrote to those who knew of her conditions. It was not written to those outside of the church but to the Saints of the Church. No further details were needed to explained on his part. You can see how he leaves the finer details out but explains it directly. However, that was different with Luke [1:34-35], who was meticulous with details. Two different viewpoints of authors on explaining what had happened, but maybe confusing for a person who has no understanding, outside of the gospel.

It was not the Holy Ghost who was the FATHER or the great Jehovah, it was GOD HIMSELF who was the author of that corporeal mortal Savior. If the Holy Ghost had a resurrected body, perhaps. But nevertheless, it was the FATHER that planted the seed.

Not forgetting the term 'ONLY BEGOTTEN' of the FATHER. There is but one FATHER I am aware of that fathered our spirits.

[prisonchaplain]

To be real simple...the Catholic/Protestant understanding is that only Jesus had an eternal premortal existence. Further, if his incarnation (made in the flesh) happened in the womb, then He was a Spirit prior to birth. This could support either the traditional teaching or the LDS version. How?

1. Traditional view: If Jesus, the Son of God, did not have a body prior to his flesh-conception, we are right to surmise that the Father also does not have a body. Like Father like Son.

2. LDS view: Perhaps we, as the children of God also are spirits before our conceptions.

Perhaps the most signficant LDS distinctive is not the nature of God or humanity, but rather the matter of just how signifcant the difference is between our natures.

[Hemidakota]

I agree, being a former Catholic. This is there belief.

[Traveler]

Thank you all for your input - I find this discussion most interesting. The topic appears to be evolving and that is a good thing but I would like to establish one very important notion before moving on. The Jesus Christ of the New Testament is both the creator and the created.

The Traveler

[AnthonyB]

Jesus the eternal God created the universe (and therefore since time is part of the universe, he existed as creator/God before the universe existed.)

Jesus also had a body created for the fullness of His deity to reside in.

We are told that He is "the only begotten of the Father"

But also that Mary was "with child of the Holy Ghost"

And finally Phil 2:7 " made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant (or "in the form of"), being made in human likeness."

All 3 persons seems to have played a part in the one act. Why wouldn't all three persons take part in the great act in human history that revealed God's love.

God (all 3 persons) so loved the world that they worked in one accord to send Jesus to us. Infact it would surely be more surprising if all 3 did not work together, as if 1 of them didn't approve or couldn't be bothered. Surely both non-LDS and LDS can both rejoice that all 3 persons that are the one eternal God loved us enough to all somehow play a part, why would anyone seek to remove the part of any of the persons but rather rejoice that they all loved us so much.

[prisonchaplain]

Jesus did create everything that was created. I'm not sure I would call the incarnation a creation. Scripture says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. I'm satisfied to leave it at that.

[AnthonyB]

PC,

Phil 2:7 "...being made in human likeness."

Surely Jesus body was created/made, it didn't exist and then it came about.

[Vanhin]

Jesus did create everything that was created. I'm not sure I would call the incarnation a creation. Scripture says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. I'm satisfied to leave it at that.

I actually agree with a couple of things in your statement. 1) I agree and am satisfied with the way scripture speaks of these things. Of course we have other scriptures besides the Bible, but they are in complete harmony with one another. 2) By, through, and of Jesus Christ were all things created. Joseph Smith saw in vision the following, as recorded in our scriptures:

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24)

And from the Book of Moses from the Pearl of Great Price:

And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. (Moses 1:31-34)

And we won't leave out the words of Abinadi from the Book of Mormon:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son— The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. (Mosiah 15:1-4)

Let's not leave out the Holy Bible:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:1-5)

These are infinite and eternal matters. What can we explain better about these things than the prophets have in scripture?

The light of Christ (sometimes called spirit of Christ, light of truth, or intelligence) proceeds forth from the Father through Christ, and gives light and life to all things, and it is the law by which all things are governed in Heaven and earth.

He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made; As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made; And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings; Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D&C 88:6-13)

Yes, I believe the scriptures, and I believe in Christ.

Regards,

Vanhin

[VisionOfLehi]

What does it mean that we, Man, were created in the likeness of God?